WHO IS GOD'S TRUE CHURCH ACCORDING TO GOD'S WORD?

[ViaCrucis]

Good you agree this includes the 10 commandments.

I haven't suggested that the Law excludes the Decalogue. So I'm not sure why you think this is a victory for you.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Well, as worded here, it sounds like you're suggesting that, at the end of the day, our salvation is ultimately performance based. That there is some kind of grading chart.

-CryptoLutheran

Well none of that is true. I have stated from the outset that we are only saved by GRACE through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

God's Grace however is for OBEDIENCE to the faith. It is not a liscense to sin.

ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

ROMANS 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Faith establsihes God's LAW it does not ABOLISH it...

ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

 

[prodromos]

No you haven't please go ahead and make your case with the scriptures. If you cannot why do you not believe God's WORD?

I believe God's Word. I don't believe the false interpretation of God's Word as presented by yourself.

 

[ViaCrucis]

No you haven't please go ahead and make your case with the scriptures. If you cannot why do you not believe God's WORD?

Our problem isn't with the Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I haven't suggested that the Law excludes the Decalogue. So I'm not sure why you think this is a victory for you.

-CryptoLutheran

I can see that you cannot see where the victory is. There is only victory in God's WORD in my view. Please respond to respond to post # 423 click me with all the scriptures in it that disagree with you. JESUS says; On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets *MATTHEW 22:26-40

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Our problem isn't with the Scriptures.

-CryptoLutheran

Well here we disagree. Your problem is indeed with the scriptures and it is the reason you do not respond to them. (post # 423 click me)

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I believe God's Word. I don't believe the false interpretation of God's Word as presented by yourself.

All I hear is your words over God's WORD. Sorry friend they are God's WORD not mine. Your argument is with God not me. If you disagree with something I have posted let's discuss it and share God's WORD. If you cannot your disagreement does not make God's WORD that disagrees with you magically disappear.

 

[prodromos]

If you cannot your disagreement does not make God's WORD that disagrees with you magically disappear

You repeatedly stating that God's Word disagrees with us does not magically make it so.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You repeatedly stating that God's Word disagrees with us does not magically make it so.

Not really. I have asked you to prove what you say with scripture. Or prove that what I have posted is in error. You have not been able to. If you cannot then we should believe God's WORD as they are God's WORDS not mine.

 

[Karola]

I believe you're the one who added the word "unrepentant" there. As I don't see it in the post you are quoting from.

Christian teaching recognizes that as sinners the reality of sin is part of this present life lived in this frail, mortal, sin-bound existence. In Lutheranism we recognize this as the Simul, i.e. that the Christian is simul iustus et peccator, at once both saint and sinner. It is what St. Paul speaks of in Romans chapter 7, that the law of sin is present in our mortal members. The old man and the new man exist together, and the Christian life is one lived in struggle against the old man, in faith and hope.

-CryptoLutheran

The man mentioned in rom7:14-24 said he was a slave to sin:
We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. verse14

Was he condemned?
Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey – whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness? Rom6:16

In asking this, I am not suggesting Christians live sinless lives, far from it, just good to know who is actually being spoken of in the verses

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well none of that is true. I have stated from the outset that we are only saved by GRACE through faith it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast. *EPHESIANS 2:8-9.

God's Grace however is for OBEDIENCE to the faith. It is not a liscense to sin.

ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

ROMANS 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith

Faith establsihes God's LAW it does not ABOLISH it...

ROMANS 3:31, Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Nobody is suggesting that grace is a license for sin.

As a Lutheran I'd say that you want to say salvation by grace alone, but you are confusing Law and Gospel, and also confusing the distinction between the Coram Deo and the Coram Hominibus.

Also, I would quibble with the translation of "obedience". It's not wrong, just that the sense can be misconstrued in certain cases. The word here, hypakoe, is the noun form of hypakouo, to "under-hear", to harken, to heed. Obedience can be subsumed into the meaning; but fundamentally the idea is heedfulness. A word (including a command) is spoken, and one is heedful, attentive, listening. It may make sense to speak of a slave's hypakoe as obedience since that is a slave's position in reference to his master, and so when the slave heeds the master's command, he obeys and does it. But may not make quite as much sense, say, when Paul says to Philemon that he is confident in Philemon's obedience; but it does make sense to speak of Paul's confidence in Philemon's heedfulness, that Philemon will hear what Paul has said and take it seriously, because that's just the kind of guy Philemon is.

This becomes especially true about the Gospel, because the Gospel isn't law, and so we don't obey the Gospel, we receive the Gospel in our hearing, as passive agents. We hear the word, the word which gives us faith (Romans 10:17), for this word is powerful, in fact it is the very power of God to save (Romans 1:16). Paul will say that not all heed the Gospel, for not all who hear the word received it. Like Jesus says in the Parable of the Sower, the seed fell upon the ground and in some cases it did not take root, perhaps because thistles and thorns choked it out, or because birds of the air came and plucked it away.

The heedfulness of faith, of course, does make sense--for Paul's commission and calling was to be apostle among the nations, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. It is precisely the preaching of the Gospel that he has in mind here, that the nations might hear the Gospel, that same Gospel which creates faith.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Karola]

Grace is not a licence to sin, but rather enables victory over sin:
For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace Rom6:14

For:
The power of sin is the law 1Cor15:56

How can anyone view grace as a licence to sin if the law is in their heart?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Well here we disagree. Your problem is indeed with the scriptures and it is the reason you do not respond to them. (post # 423 click me)

Alright, let's do that.

Good question let's look at the scriptures...

What does Jesus say when he talk about the commandments. Jesus is quoting from Old testament scriptures of Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18.

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

It says upon these two hang all the Law, not just the Decalogue.

Let's get clearer...

MATTHEW 19:16-21
[16], And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: BUT IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He saith unto him, WHICH? JESUS SAID, THOU SHALT NOT MURDER, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, HONOR YOU MOTHER AND FATHER AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
[20], The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
[21], Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. <Jesus showed him that he may have fulfilled His duty of love to his neighbor but not to God breaking commandment 1 and 2 loving riches more than God>

Well Jesus makes it very clear that what he is talking about it is the 10 commandments of God's Law.

Jesus does quote from the Decalogue here, but He also includes a commandment not in the Decalogue, "Love your neighbor as yourself". I have no reason to believe that Jesus means anything other than all the commandments, not just 10+1. Should I? Give me a reason.

What about James...

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, ye do well:
[9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE SHALL BE GUILTY OF ALL.
[11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY SAID ALSO DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY AND YOU KILL, YOU HAVE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW.
[12], So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Well James makes it very clear what he is talking about when he talks about the Royal Law of love. He is talking about the 10 commandments. So Jesus and James both agree that they are talking about God's 10 commandments which also include the 4th commandment which is one of the ten.

Not at all. James is explicitly clear what he means by the royal law, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" that's the royal law. James then quotes a few of the commandments from the Decalogue to speak of how failing at any point of the Law is a failing at all points of the Law. At no point does James say the Decalogue is the royal law.

What about Paul? He wrote a lot of books in God's Word...........................

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
[9], For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

Paul makes it very clear what he is talking about as well when he is talking about God's Law. It seems like Jesus, James and Paul all agree together what it is they are referring to when talking about God's Law. They are all referring to God's 10 commandments which includes the 4th commandment which is one of the ten (Exodus 20:1-17)

Yep, Paul does quote from the Decalogue. Of course that doesn't mean God's Law is restricted to these 10 commandments. But instead that the command to love fulfills, and is the heart of all of God's Law.

So now that God's Word shows us what it is referring to. No need to guess, what we are talking about, God’s Law of Love is God's 10 commandments.

And this is where I quoted you before. Because you're wrong, none of this shows that God's law of love is the Decalogue. None of the Scriptures you posted even come close to saying that. This is your opinion, not the inspired word of Scripture.

What Scripture says is that the royal law of love is to love our neighbor as ourselves, and that this fulfills ALL of God's Law, not just the Decalogue, but ALL of it.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Nobody is suggesting that grace is a license for sin.

As a Lutheran I'd say that you want to say salvation by grace alone, but you are confusing Law and Gospel, and also confusing the distinction between the Coram Deo and the Coram Hominibus.

Also, I would quibble with the translation of "obedience". It's not wrong, just that the sense can be misconstrued in certain cases. The word here, hypakoe, is the noun form of hypakouo, to "under-hear", to harken, to heed. Obedience can be subsumed into the meaning; but fundamentally the idea is heedfulness. A word (including a command) is spoken, and one is heedful, attentive, listening. It may make sense to speak of a slave's hypakoe as obedience since that is a slave's position in reference to his master, and so when the slave heeds the master's command, he obeys and does it. But may not make quite as much sense, say, when Paul says to Philemon that he is confident in Philemon's obedience; but it does make sense to speak of Paul's confidence in Philemon's heedfulness, that Philemon will hear what Paul has said and take it seriously, because that's just the kind of guy Philemon is.

This becomes especially true about the Gospel, because the Gospel isn't law, and so we don't obey the Gospel, we receive the Gospel in our hearing, as passive agents. We hear the word, the word which gives us faith (Romans 10:17), for this word is powerful, in fact it is the very power of God to save (Romans 1:16). Paul will say that not all heed the Gospel, for not all who hear the word received it. Like Jesus says in the Parable of the Sower, the seed fell upon the ground and in some cases it did not take root, perhaps because thistles and thorns choked it out, or because birds of the air came and plucked it away.

The heedfulness of faith, of course, does make sense--for Paul's commission and calling was to be apostle among the nations, to preach the Gospel to the Gentiles. It is precisely the preaching of the Gospel that he has in mind here, that the nations might hear the Gospel, that same Gospel which creates faith.

-CryptoLutheran

ROMANS 1:5 By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name.

The GREEK Word used for OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH is as you have pointed out is ὑπακοη which means; attentive hearkening, that is, (by implication) compliance or submission: - obedience, (make) obedient, obey (-ing).

So yep pretty much means OBEDIENCE applied to THE FAITH πίστις which means persuasion, that is, credence ; moral conviction of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher, especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

So yep ROMANS 1:5 is saying that GRACE is for OBEDIENCE to the FAITH or religious truth.

There is no confusing LAW and GOSPEL. They are not mutually exclusive. The one leads to the other. If you have no LAW you have no Gospel.

The purpose of GOD'S LAW (10 Commandments), is to give us a KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN and RIGHTOEUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; JAMES 2:10-11; PSALMS 119:172.

*If you have no LAW you have no KNOWLEDGE of what sin is.
*If you have no KNOWLEDGE of what sin is you have no need of a Saviour
*If you have no need of a SAVIOUR then you have no salvation.
*If you have no salvation then you are lost because your still in your sins.

The purpose of God's LAW (10 commandments) is to show us that we are all sinners in need of Salvation to lead us to Christ that we might be FORGIVEN by FAITH *GALATIANS 3:22-25.

If you have no knowledge of sin than the scriptures are fulfilled...

ROMANS 2:12-13
[12], For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
[13], For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

So you do not believe God's LAW is ABOLISHED now do you -CryptoLutheran?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Alright, let's do that.
It says upon these two hang all the Law, not just the Decalogue. Jesus does quote from the Decalogue here, but He also includes a commandment not in the Decalogue, "Love your neighbor as yourself". I have no reason to believe that Jesus means anything other than all the commandments, not just 10+1. Should I? Give me a reason.
Not at all. James is explicitly clear what he means by the royal law, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself" that's the royal law. James then quotes a few of the commandments from the Decalogue to speak of how failing at any point of the Law is a failing at all points of the Law. At no point does James say the Decalogue is the royal law.

Yep, Paul does quote from the Decalogue. Of course that doesn't mean God's Law is restricted to these 10 commandments. But instead that the command to love fulfills, and is the heart of all of God's Law.

And this is where I quoted you before. Because you're wrong, none of this shows that God's law of love is the Decalogue. None of the Scriptures you posted even come close to saying that. This is your opinion, not the inspired word of Scripture.

What Scripture says is that the royal law of love is to love our neighbor as ourselves, and that this fulfills ALL of God's Law, not just the Decalogue, but ALL of it.

-CryptoLutheran

In all honesty I thought you would have picked it up already. Not to worry let's move through this slowly.

Jesus is quoting from Deuteronomy 6:5 and Leviticus 19:18 when he is asked what are the great commandments in the law...

These scriptures were very well known by the Scribes and the Pharisees. In fact they tried to trick Jesus by asking him a similar question.

LUKE 10:25-28
[25], And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tested him, saying, Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
[26], He said unto him, What is written in the law? how read you?
[27], And he answering said, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.
[28], And he said unto him, You have answered right: this do, and you shall live.

Now look here at nearly the same question and look how Jesus answers it...

MATTHEW 19:16-21
[16], And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
[17], And he said unto him, Why call thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: BUT IF YOU WILL ENTER INTO LIFE KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
[18], He saith unto him, WHICH? JESUS SAID, THOU SHALT NOT MURDER, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, HONOR YOU MOTHER AND FATHER AND THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF
[20], The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

[21], Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. <Jesus showed him that he may have fulfilled His duty of love to his neighbor but not to God breaking commandment 1 and 2 loving riches more than God>

So same question answered in two different ways. One saying by LOVE TO GOD and MAN and the other by OBEDIENCE to God's 10 Commandments.

PAUL makes it clearer here what we are discussing by combining both LOVE AND LAW...

ROMANS 13:8-10
[8], Owe no man anything, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for HE THAT LOVES ANOTHER HAS FULFILLED THE LAW.
[9], For this, THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, THOU SHALT NOT LIE, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and IF THERE SHALL BE ANY OTHER COMMANDMENT, it is briefly SUMMED UP in this saying, namely, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF.
[10], Love works no ill to his neighbor: therefore LOVE IS THE FULFILLING OF THE LAW.

NOTE: v9 After quoting the commandments of our duty towards our fellow man PAUL says that these commandments are summed up in the saying THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBORE AS THYSELF.

JAMES follows a similar thought here...

JAMES 2:8-12
[8], If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF, ye do well:

NOTE: PAUL says in ROMANS 13:9 that THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF is summing up our moral duty to our neighbore in the 10 COMMANDMENT. JAMES continues the same thoughts..

[9], But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
[10], FOR WHOSOEVER SHALL KEEP THE WHOLE LAW AND YET OFFEND IN ONE POINT, HE SHALL BE GUILTY OF ALL.
[11], FOR HE THAT SAID, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY SAID ALSO DO NOT KILL. NOW IF YOU DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY AND YOU KILL, YOU HAVE BECOME A TRANSGRESSOR OF GOD'S LAW.
[12], So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Yep same thoughts continued both quoting our duty of LOVE which is summed up and expressed as OBEDIENCE to God's LAW.

This is what JESUS is talking about here...

MATTHEW 22:36-40
[36], Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
[37], Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
[38], This is the first and great commandment.
[39], And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
[40], ON THESE TWO COMMANDMENTS HANG ALL THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS.

The reference to God's 10 Commandments and our duty of LOVE to God and LOVE to mankind.

Sorry brother CryptoLutheran God's WORD disagrees with you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Hello Steve, Now your making things up I have never said. Salvation is indeed a free gift and there is nothing that you can do to earn it. OBEDIENCE is the fruit of Faith in all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. If you do not have it you do not know God and are still in your sins *1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

So are you saying that salvation is the result of obedience, or that obedience is the result of salvation?

 

[Neogaia777]

Not really. I have asked you to prove what you say with scripture. Or prove that what I have posted is in error. You have not been able to. If you cannot then we should believe God's WORD as they are God's WORDS not mine.

Let's start with just about all writings by Paul, taken in their entire and intended context...

You say, "Our problem is with scriptures" (when it's not anyway), and I'm sure we can certainly give you scriptures, and some of us have already "given you some scriptures" but it's like you ignored them... That being said, you can lie and say "our problem is with scriptures" or the "entire whole counsel of the entire and all words of God", when we think "that is your problem"...

And, also, if you say "our problem is with scriptures", then I could also say also that your problem is with observable reality... And observable and fully tested and testable truths of not only what we observe and see in take in with the natural senses with our environment around us, but the REAL BIBLES TRUTH, and that is: "The entire whole counsel of the entire and all words of God" (that ever was and will be)... For that is God's True "WORD"... And that, the world cannot contain, which is why it is written on hearts and in peoples consciences...

And part of truly beginning to see the real picture and that "WORD" or truth is for you to surrender and submit to God, by admitting that you fall short always, and will fall short always in this world, giving up your pride, and then working with God from there, cause that is where he wants you to start with "the true intended purpose of the letter of the Law", or the or any Law period...

To be humble enough to be truly one of God's you must submit to this truth, that is: You cannot keep the commandments, and definitely not the royal law perfectly either... none of us can except Christ... and when we truly know that and accept that ever so essential key beginning truth in our walk, then we are humble and humbled enough to truly begin that walk on that path, the right path, which is was Christ Jesus way and path...

The letter of the law and trying to obey a, or any law in "any of your own strength, (will, effort, whatever), "at all" actually takes you off that path... Sacrifices true righteousness, for either false or fake, or self-righteousness...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

I believe Paul to a bit more...? "Advanced" perhaps, or "enlightened" or something... "Ahead" of many, including many of the apostles...

If you can truly comprehend all his words, and all that he is trying to say, you'll see what most of us on here are talking about... Paul knew it was impossible to keep the entire law or commandments, even/and, especially the Royal Law, perfectly, all the time, and that much should be clear by him and his words...

When you can say to Paul and Paul's words that "you get what he is trying to say" by all of it/this/words or something... I don't think some are getting what Paul was trying to say right at all sometimes... You'd have to understand the man, and to do that, you have be more "advanced/enlightened or "whatever"... See a different view or embrace a broader, larger view or broader, wider range, or "perspective" on things...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

So, let me understand what YOU are saying:

(1) Telling Truth that people don't want to hear is offensive
(2) Being offensive is to be avoided at all costs.
(3) Therefore, sharing Truth that might offend people should be avoided.

Now let me tell you why I WHOLEHEARTEDLY DISAGREE with that logic:

(1) Jesus didn't do that. Jesus offended people more than once. He knew what He was doing and He certainly knew it would offend them. In fact, sometimes He even acknowledged it, like when He said:
"Does this offend you?" right before many of His disciples left. But, I already shared the John 6 passage. You aren't choosing to accept that Scripture.

(2) None of the apostles did that.
(3) Stephen definitely didn't do that.
(4) Here is a study that someone else made me aware of. While I don't necessarily agree with the fullness of reformed theology, many of these statements should be accepted without doubt for true believers. You should read some of the sad survey results for "evangelical Christians", then answer this: At what point does withholding offensive Truth stop?

http://lifewayresearch.com/wp-conte...te-of-American-Theology-2016-Final-Report.pdf

No. That's not what I am saying at all.

I think we need to earn the right to be heard. Once we have earned that right, we are in the optimal position to speak the truth in love. Here is a real life current example. (see linked topic title below) Notice what transpires on this three page topic. Those that get in the face of the thread originator are getting nowhere with him. Consider my approach and see where it leads. Thanks. @Dave G. should see this as well.

I Need Advice On Dating Christian Women As A Very Open Minded Christian?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

So are you saying that salvation is the result of obedience, or that obedience is the result of salvation?

Nope not saying what your saying at all.