Predatory dinosaurs before the flood

[Hank77]

The quote from Isaiah is future tense.

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/11/6/t_conc_690006

I won't discuss this in this thread as it is off topic but you might find this interesting.

 

[Anto9us]

 

[dqhall]

A person can be a Creationist and believe in an Old Earth. Adam and Eve are however comparatively recent. But the old earth notion of Creationism fundamentally contradicts the whole view that the geological layers we see today, and by which you date your asteroid strike, were laid by a catastrophic flood.

We do not really know what weaponry and capabilities pre flood humans had as these were destroyed by the flood. Maybe it was a simple as a really smelly plant that no dinosaur could come with 100 meters of being planted around towns. But just as today, if it existed, a T-Rex would pose no real threat to human civilisation I doubt if it did then.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth... 6 days of forming and filling. You separate the 2 as if of 2 different accounts but Exodus 20:11 does not:

For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day

You might dare to venture into the study of paleontology and stratigraphy to try to find evidence of you claims, or lack thereof. No humanoid fossils were found with t-rex fossils. Someone with a high school education might be able to learn introductory geology texts.

 

[Childofgodharrison]

The standard Creationist explanation about dinosaurs is that they were mainly wiped out by the flood. If there were dinosaurs after the flood then they were not of the same size ( a reptile grows its entire life - so if it lived hundreds of years in a perfect eco system it would grow large)and it seems clear they did not survive in the post flood world as there are none today. Even the accounts of dragons fade out about 1000 years ago.

My question is this. The account of the flood is followed by an account of Nimrod ( a great hunter). After the time of Nimrod the world could be characterised in terms of hunters and of prey. Human beings started eating meat - something they did not need to do in the pre-flood world to meet their nutritional needs. But it seems clear that some of the dinosaurs destroyed by the flood were carnivores before the flood. So my question is why were their carnivore dinosaurs like T-Rex in a perfect eco system.

Explanations I have been toying with are:

1) The fall broke creation more significantly than previously thought and that while humans were not carnivores before the flood many other animals were. But given the vibrancy and longevity of life before the flood these predators sometimes took on epic proportions.

2) That carnivores were the result of some kind of wicked human or angelic genetic experimentation that was one of the reasons for the flood. Had God not wiped us out would we have been annihilated by the monsters of our own creation anyway?

The dinosaurs were not our creation, it was the angels that left their dwelling to take wives of the daughters of man and have children. They also defiled the animals. Creating giants. I believe that all original man had been destroyed because of the violence on the earth. All that were left were the fallen angels, their giant children and Noah and his family. That's why God had to destroy the world with the flood.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

I believe God created carnivores to be carnivores, not part of some broken creation or genetic experimentation.

It always amazes me how other people's ideas about Heaven and Paradise seem like Hell to me. So God creates a bunch of animals and designs them to murder each other constantly, and that's his ideal plan for creation. That's not my idea of Paradise.

Re-posted from someone's from earlier reply:

And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.
Genesis 1:30

1) The fall broke creation more significantly than previously thought and that while humans were not carnivores before the flood many other animals were. But given the vibrancy and longevity of life before the flood these predators sometimes took on epic proportions.

This is the better of the two, but you're going to have a problem with the need for fossil evidence of herbivorous versions of today's carnivores.

There are a few different ways of looking at this one:

• That some herbivores were transformed into carnivores.
• That carnivores, not previously existing, were introduced in the same way that thorns and brambles were introduced.
• That Adam and Eve were kicked out of Paradise and into a totally different universe, like a parallel universe of some sort. What at first appeared to be a change in their world was better described as a change of worlds.

You might dare to venture into the study of paleontology and stratigraphy to try to find evidence of you claims,

Paleontology is largely dominated by atheists looking for bones to write fiction about. The whole discipline should have been disciplined when the truth about coal was discovered, but they keep going unabated. Stratigraphy, if that's even a word, is entirely founded on a single unproved premise, likely false.

No humanoid fossils were found with t-rex fossils.

That's a claim akin to saying that coyotes must be graceful, because you've never heard one trip. Even if the conclusion is true, the logic leading up to it an embarrassment to anyone over the age of twelve.

 

[mindlight]

The dinosaurs were not our creation, it was the angels that left their dwelling to take wives of the daughters of man and have children. They also defiled the animals. Creating giants. I believe that all original man had been destroyed because of the violence on the earth. All that were left were the fallen angels, their giant children and Noah and his family. That's why God had to destroy the world with the flood.

If the Nephilim were the progenitors of the giants and heroes of the pre flood era it is not that much of stretch to consider that they fiddled with animals also.

But do not agree that they had wiped out mankind before the flood. Methuselah for example died in the year of the flood.

 

[mindlight]

You might dare to venture into the study of paleontology and stratigraphy to try to find evidence of you claims, or lack thereof. No humanoid fossils were found with t-rex fossils. Someone with a high school education might be able to learn introductory geology texts.

How many humans you know would hang out with a massive carnivore intent on killing and eating them! In catastrophic conditions people would keep well away from them.

Intellectual snobbery and attempted put downs do not work with me. Nor do appeals to a system that has gone way beyond its remit and declared methodology in its explanations of our origins. Inferential science can be distinguished from experimental science. The first produces theories and the second facts. There are no facts that overthrow a creationist viewpoint.

 

[mindlight]

This is the better of the two, but you're going to have a problem with the need for fossil evidence of herbivorous versions of today's carnivores.

There are a few different ways of looking at this one:

• That some herbivores were transformed into carnivores.
• That carnivores, not previously existing, were introduced in the same way that thorns and brambles were introduced.
• That Adam and Eve were kicked out of Paradise and into a totally different universe, like a parallel universe of some sort. What at first appeared to be a change in their world was better described as a change of worlds.

The first of these seem most likely given the lifespans mentioned in scripture and the acceptance of adaptive change. Given a thousand years a creature created herbivore could well adapt and transform into a carnivore and indeed leave no fossil trail. Indeed given that there were only 1500 years between creation and flood it is possible that there would be very few fossils if any and that those creatures that did die in this time period were eaten or decomposed in the more vibrant eco system of the time. So there may be no dinosaur fossils at all until the flood catastrophe.

Paleontology is largely dominated by atheists looking for bones to write fiction about.

Well said

 

[Marvin Knox]

Besides finally seeing the Lord Himself - right near the top of the things I want to check out in the future is the video of the pre-flood world with it's animal life and it's human civilizations - including those fallen angels and the resultant offspring of their interactions with mankind.

It's all very mysterious and fascinating.

 

[Childofgodharrison]

If the Nephilim were the progenitors of the giants and heroes of the pre flood era it is not that much of stretch to consider that they fiddled with animals also.

But do not agree that they had wiped out mankind before the flood. Methuselah for example died in the year of the flood.

Yes because all mankind was corrupt except Noah and his family.

 

[mindlight]

Yes because all mankind was corrupt except Noah and his family.

No that is not what the bible says. The judgment is on people still alive at the time of the flood AND there is a wicked liason with fallen angels implied.

Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
Genesis 6:11-13

 

[mindlight]

Besides finally seeing the Lord Himself - right near the top of the things I want to check out in the future is the video of the pre-flood world with it's animal life and it's human civilizations - including those fallen angels and the resultant offspring of their interactions with mankind.

It's all very mysterious and fascinating.

Given believers resurrection to a glorified state and the restoration of creation to the new heavens and earth where God is all in all I think the future may even more exciting, vibrant, majestic, beautiful and alive than even Eden was. We will once more be genetically perfect, in a perfect eco system in continual communion with the Maker and Sustainer of all life.

 

[Childofgodharrison]

No that is not what the bible says. The judgment is on people still alive at the time of the flood AND there is a wicked liason with fallen angels implied.

Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence. 12 God saw how corrupt the earth had become, for all the people on earth had corrupted their ways. 13 So God said to Noah, “I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.
Genesis 6:11-13

Isn't that what I said?

 

[mindlight]

Isn't that what I said?

Sorry if I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that the flood was just for giants and fallen angels.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Given believers resurrection to a glorified state and the restoration of creation to the new heavens and earth where God is all in all I think the future may even more exciting, vibrant, majestic, beautiful and alive than even Eden was. We will once more be genetically perfect, in a perfect eco system in continual communion with the Maker and Sustainer of all life.

It'll be a great ride. Count me in.

I'll be there - no doubt about it.

Jesus bought me a ticket and everything.

 

[Thomas Clark]

The standard Creationist explanation about dinosaurs is that they were mainly wiped out by the flood. If there were dinosaurs after the flood then they were not of the same size ( a reptile grows its entire life - so if it lived hundreds of years in a perfect eco system it would grow large)and it seems clear they did not survive in the post flood world as there are none today. Even the accounts of dragons fade out about 1000 years ago.

My question is this. The account of the flood is followed by an account of Nimrod ( a great hunter). After the time of Nimrod the world could be characterised in terms of hunters and of prey. Human beings started eating meat - something they did not need to do in the pre-flood world to meet their nutritional needs. But it seems clear that some of the dinosaurs destroyed by the flood were carnivores before the flood. So my question is why were their carnivore dinosaurs like T-Rex in a perfect eco system.

Explanations I have been toying with are:

1) The fall broke creation more significantly than previously thought and that while humans were not carnivores before the flood many other animals were. But given the vibrancy and longevity of life before the flood these predators sometimes took on epic proportions.

2) That carnivores were the result of some kind of wicked human or angelic genetic experimentation that was one of the reasons for the flood. Had God not wiped us out would we have been annihilated by the monsters of our own creation anyway?

Hello Mindlight! I find the both of these notions interesting and stimulating. Thank You!

As concerns the second item, I am instantly reminded of the accounts from "The Keys of Enoch", who, I believe was Ezekiel's father-in-law? Enoch's book didn't make the cut, for admission to the bible, but it speaks of such "wicked human or angelic genetic experimentation". At that time even Ezekiel was under suspicion of encouraging dangerous mystical speculation, as well as being sometimes obscure, incoherent, and inappropriate contentographic..

 

[mindlight]

Hello Mindlight! I find the both of these notions interesting and stimulating. Thank You!

As concerns the second item, I am instantly reminded of the accounts from "The Keys of Enoch", who, I believe was Ezekiel's father-in-law? Enoch's book didn't make the cut, for admission to the bible, but it speaks of such "wicked human or angelic genetic experimentation". At that time even Ezekiel was under suspicion of encouraging dangerous mystical speculation, as well as being sometimes obscure, incoherent, and inappropriate contentographic..

The book of Enoch is not in the bible but Chapters 6-10 also have a lot of detail relating to the events leading up to the flood including the names of the leaders of the 200 angels that fell. Also hints about things they did that might have effected the animal world.

And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones. Enoch 7:5-6


http://www.hermetics.org/pdf/bookenoch.pdf

Regarding the Keys of Enoch I do not take James Hurtacks account of being handed 64keys by Enoch in 1973 that seriously. It sounds more like an occult experience and especially since he regards Orthodox Christians and honest academics as the main enemies of his new vanguard Christ race. Also he is talking the language of evolution in the aspiration for this new race genetically prepared for the changes to come in his pre Millennial vision. The human race has if anything been on a path of devolution since the fall with reduced regenerative capabilities, intelligence and longevity as symptoms of damaging mutations.

http://theobservor.blogspot.com/2006/04/who-is-j-j-hurtakreally.html

 

[akaDaScribe]

The standard Creationist explanation about dinosaurs is that they were mainly wiped out by the flood. If there were dinosaurs after the flood then they were not of the same size ( a reptile grows its entire life - so if it lived hundreds of years in a perfect eco system it would grow large)and it seems clear they did not survive in the post flood world as there are none today. Even the accounts of dragons fade out about 1000 years ago.

My question is this. The account of the flood is followed by an account of Nimrod ( a great hunter). After the time of Nimrod the world could be characterised in terms of hunters and of prey. Human beings started eating meat - something they did not need to do in the pre-flood world to meet their nutritional needs. But it seems clear that some of the dinosaurs destroyed by the flood were carnivores before the flood. So my question is why were their carnivore dinosaurs like T-Rex in a perfect eco system.

Explanations I have been toying with are:

1) The fall broke creation more significantly than previously thought and that while humans were not carnivores before the flood many other animals were. But given the vibrancy and longevity of life before the flood these predators sometimes took on epic proportions.

2) That carnivores were the result of some kind of wicked human or angelic genetic experimentation that was one of the reasons for the flood. Had God not wiped us out would we have been annihilated by the monsters of our own creation anyway?

IMHO

We have no idea how long 7 days covered. We have no idea how long Adam was without Eve. We have no idea how long Adam and Eve were in the Garden before they fell. We have know idea how long it was before they were physically kicked out. I think when God told Adam that the ground was cursed because of him, the vegetation that existed prior to that time died off quickly, strangled the food supply and the dinosaurs died off relatively quickly from starvation; at least the bigger ones. I think they were long gone before the flood.

 

[TerryHueffed]

Here's my Creationist explanation about dinosaurs:

I believe God created all that is (not only listed things, but every last thing).

And that means God created physics and chemistry too. And they work great. Because they are His design, His creation. Therefore any evolution that happened (however much or little guided, with many or with few interventions) before modern humans would be God's design, if He is the Creator, as I believe.

But dangerous dinosaurs would not have been compatible with villages, woman and children, fields of crops that could be trampled or eaten, farm animals as attractive prey.

Imagine for a minute that powerful predatory dinosaurs were still around 3000 years ago, before we had modern weapons. Would spears and arrows be able to fight off a pack of Velociraptors? Or their larger cousins? Guard against a Pterodactyl snatching sheep and children? No.

God removed them. It appears very much like He removed them -- made most dinosaurs into compost very suddenly -- with a large asteroid.

One that was very literally just the right size.

Not too small -- if that asteroid had been 30% smaller, most dinosaurs would still be around during the days of the first men.

Not too large -- too many good species, necessary and helpful plants and such, would have been destroyed if the asteroid had been 50% bigger...

No, that asteroid that hit Earth was just precisely the right size.

For our sakes.

And it looks convincingly in layers of rock that it hit about 66 million years ago. In that case, we can then see it means time passed between days of creation. So it makes sense to me that the special days Moses saw in the vision from God were each one spaced apart in time from the next.

I don't need convoluted theories to reconcile creation and science. Instead, read the scripture as it is --

and if you do, then

Scripture fits perfectly with the Earth being very old, much older than Adam by far.

We can see an old Earth even in chapter 1 with a literal reading, by realizing that of course time would have passed during verse 1, an unspecified amount of time, before verse 2.

That some unknown amount of time passed during verse 1, as God created the Universe and then Earth -- time passage during this phase -- is just what anyone might expect or think likely that did not have a previous viewpoint to defend. It's even the most straightforward reading of the text.

The scripture could have been revealed to Moses differently (but it was not)... it could have instead been different if God chose and we could imagine a whole different verse 1, not like God did tell Moses, which might read (imagined) "God created the Heavens (Universe) in an instant, like the blink of an eye" if that were the case. But it's not there, not in the text, and we have no reason to add it in or assume it.

 

[TerryHueffed]

There is no proof that I know about in regards to an asteroid wiping out the dinosaurs but, there is a lot of evidence concerning a massive flood wiping them out.