When did/will the old covenant end?

[Soyeong]

Jesus fulfilled the Law and replaced it with the New Covenant on the cross. Circumcision made one a physical Jew and physical member of Israel. With circumcision gone, that last generation began dying off until only spiritual Israel made up of believers in Christ was left. It is these to whom God grafted us into as believing gentiles. And to whom he also reattaches believing "Jews" according to Romans 11.

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, this is not something that God ever commanded. While there were a couple instances where God did command some Gentiles to become circumcised, God never commanded it of all Gentiles. Furthermore, while God did command all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were commanded to do so in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that was in fact contrary to the purposes of God. As such, a ruling against requiring Gentiles to do something that God never commanded should not be taken as a ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded.

 

[Soyeong]

#2 is the norm. But we have the Two Great Commandments, love for God and people, that existed long before the Ten Commandments. Anyone could keep the Ten Commandments for the wrong reasons. But only the Born Again can live in harmony with the Two Great Commandments. This is why Paul says even martyrdom not motivated by love is worthless.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so it is impossible to obey God's commandments apart from love.

 

[Soyeong]

The Law remains in print. The Law is taken from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy. The Law is likely to remain in readable form until the end of the earth. Not one alpha or epsilon has been destroyed.

Part of the Law is:
Exodus 21:24 (WEB) eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

Jesus amended this law:
Matthew 5:38-48 World English Bible (WEB)
38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, don’t resist him who is evil; but whoever strikes you on your right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 If anyone sues you to take away your coat, let him have your cloak also. 41 Whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks you, and don’t turn away him who desires to borrow from you.

You can't hold both the position that not the least part will ever disappear from the Law and the position that Jesus amended the Law. Whenever Jesus quoted the Law, he proceeded it by saying "it is written", but when he was quoting from what the people had heard being taught about the Law, then he proceeded it by saying "you have heard that it was said" so the emphasis on the different form of communication is important. Jesus was not sinning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2 by amending the Law, but rather he was fulfilling the Law by correcting what was wrongly being taught about it and by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it as it was originally intended.

 

[redleghunter]

You have to ask, how could the abomination of desecration desecrate something that was no longer holy? The obvious answer is that it was still holy.

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Law was given to show us that we couldn't keep it, but rather God said in Deuteronomy 30:11-20 that what he commanded was not too difficult for His people to obey, that obedience brings life and a blessing, that disobedience brings death and a curse, and so choose life! So it is presented by God as a possibility and as choice. God is no an unloving Father who gave the Law in order to set His children up for failure and in order to put His children under a curse, but rather He is a loving Father who gave the Law for our own good to bless us and to set us up for success.

The one and only way that there has ever been to become saved is by grace through faith. For example, in Hebrews 11:7, Noah was listed as an example of faith and in Genesis 6:8-9, it says that he found grace in the eyes of God and that he was a righteous man, so he was saved by grace through faith in the same way we are. Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were justified by faith, so God has no need to provide an alternative and unobtainable means of becoming justified by our obedience to the Law when a perfectly good means was already in place, so the Law was never given for that purpose.

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be, not as doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.

What about the Laws which require the Temple? The civil authority to execute law breakers? Are you speaking of the moral law only or all the Law?

 

[1stcenturylady]

I think we have a significant differing concept of what "willful" means.

And probably what "sin" means.

When I was in my 20s, I thought I was a pretty righteous person.

As I've grown older, and learned more about Christ through the Holy Spirit, I've become more and more aware of how far I still have to go, even as my time grows shorter.

The Bible is the only authority. It is pretty clear about the difference between sins unto death, and sins not unto death. When you know the difference, you know what the apostles who talk about sin are meaning, not just saying. It is all about the context of the whole of Scripture, including the Old Testament. If you take a verse out of that whole context, and you can make up a licentious false doctrine.

 

[Soyeong]

It's interesting how many Christians don't understand that Jesus fulfilled the law so that we wouldn't have to. If Jesus cast out the law and didn't follow it, he would be condemned with the world. However he followed it to perfection and pleased the father with every single action in his entire life. This is impossible by human standards thus he fulfilled it so that we wouldn't have to. Now he sees us with the lens of Christ's perfection, making us perfect.

So now we are left with instructions that are humanly possible to follow: don't be sexually immoral, don't steal, love others, etc. etc. But we no longer need to be justified by the law since Christ's holiness is imputed onto us.

My answer isn't necessarily to you since I know you already know this but rather for others in this thread to read.

"To fulfill the Law" means "to cause God's will (as made known in the Law) to be obeyed as it should be" (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). After Jesus said he came to fulfill the Law in Matthew 5, this is precisely what he then proceeded to do six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly understand and obey it. In Galatians 5:14, loving your neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to obeying the Law as it should be obeyed, and refers to something countless people have done, not to something unique to Christ. Likewise, Galatians 6:2 says that bearing one another's burdens fulfills the Law of Christ, so you should interpret it in the same way as fulfilling the Law and the Prophets, namely obeying it as it should be, not as doing away with it. In Romans 15:18-19, it says that Paul fulfilled the Gospel, which again referred to causing Gentiles to become fully obedient to it in word and in deed, not to doing away with it.

 

[Soyeong]

I think its amazing there are 4 people who think we are still under (aka subject to be judged by) Mosaic law, and not subject to be judged by the new covenant (aka under the blood of Christ)

I find that utterly shocking they think when they stand before God on that Day the measure they think they will be judged by is the law.

Wow.. would not want to live under that kind of stress. I want to be judged by Christ and covered under His blood. I already know I fail the law..

The existence of sin requires there to be a standard of what is and is not sin, and that standard is God's Law. God is God, so the whole world is under His Law and obligated to obey it and to refrain from sin, otherwise, God would not have been just to judge the world with the Flood for their sins or to judge the world in Revelation. It wouldn't even make sense for God to judge the world in Revelation without having a standard by which to judge. Likewise, in 2 Peter 2:6-8, Sodom and Gomorrah were judged because of their Lawless deeds even though they weren't even in a covenant relationship with Him. Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so our sins are still judged by God's Law, it is just that Jesus took the penalty instead of us. The fact that Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins should make us want to go and sin no more. Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God except for your obedience to His Law?

 

[Soyeong]

What about the Laws which require the Temple? The civil authority to execute law breakers? Are you speaking of the moral law only or all the Law?

Many of God's laws have conditions under which they should be obeyed, such as the command to keep the Sabbath that should only be obeyed when it is the 7th day. Likewise, laws in regard to temple practice should only be obeyed when there is a temple in which to practice with along with a Levitical priesthood to officiate.

In Acts 18:18, Paul took a Nazarite vow, which involved making offerings (Numbers 6) and in Acts 21:20-24, Paul was on his way to pay for and join the purification rites of others who had untaken a similar vow in order to disprove false rumors that he was teaching against the Law and to show that he continued to live in obedience to it. In Hebrews 8:4, it speaks about offerings that were still being made in accordance with the Law. Furthermore, it says that Jesus would not be a priest if he were still on earth, and if the Law were no longer in effect, then it would have no power to do prevent that. So offerings did not stop with the death or resurrection of Jesus, but only stopped because of the destruction of the temple. However, the Bible prophesies a time when a third temple will be built and when offerings will resume (Ezekiel 44-46). In Daniel 9:27, it prophesies that the antichrist will put a stop to the daily offerings, which means that they must first resume between now and then.

Jesus gave himself to pay the penalty for our sins, so it wouldn't be just to enforce a penalty that has already been paid. Still the fact should cause us to want to go and sin no more.

If there are non-moral laws, there there would be examples where someone disobedience to those laws would be moral, but there are no examples of this. The Bible does not distinguish between moral and non-moral laws, but rather disobedience to any of God's commands is always immoral and sinful. Morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

 

[Hazelelponi]

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, this is not something that God ever commanded. While there were a couple instances where God did command some Gentiles to become circumcised, God never commanded it of all Gentiles. Furthermore, while God did command all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were commanded to do so in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that was in fact contrary to the purposes of God. As such, a ruling against requiring Gentiles to do something that God never commanded should not be taken as a ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded.

The new covenant is a different way of God dealing with His people (there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's economy ( Romans 10:11-13 ) Than during the age of the law.

First, the sign of the covenant has changed. Why? Because the physical outward sign of belonging to God wasn't what God wanted, He desired for us the inward change. That of circumcised hearts. So He removed the outward circumcision from the covenant - the sign is far deeper than that now.

The Bible wasn't saying that born Jews should continue to be circumcised under the new covenant. But they were using followers of Christ who were born Jews to preach to the as yet unsaved Jews precisely due to the fact of their circumcision. This way the message of Christ wouldn't be rejected before it was heard just because that message came from a Gentile.

Was their some confusion over whether the circumcision should be continued? Yes, but it was determined that outward physical circumcision was unnecessary - even for those of Israeli/Jewish ancestry.

But that change, that erasing of what was outwardly seen in favor of what is inward and from the heart is the hallmark of the new covenant.

Now, the Holy Spirit who now indwells us tells us right from wrong, tells us we are going astray, guides us to do what's right. It's no longer a law etched in stone, but one etched in our hearts. When we cross the line where concerns sin we know immediately if not sooner.

Can we ignore the spirit and sin anyway? Yes, but its unlike when under the law because now we are in communion with His Holy Spirit..

Is it fairly well the same law? Yes and no.

God can tell someone to quit smoking and if the man continues then He has sinned against God under the new covenant. Can you go through scripture and learn why being addicted to cigarettes can be considered sinning against God? Yes.. you can. But smoking is certainly not addressed in levitical law anywhere..

So it's an entirely different relationship with God and God's law under the new covenant.

Our submission to God is in love and love only, our desire to be the children He wants us to become is total, and we listen to Him in every way.. but this is why we say it's different now... we aren't just checking boxes of what sins we committed or didn't commit. We have communion with Gods Spirit and right and wrong can be slightly more individual.

Key to the New Covenant is love.

God is a jealous God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Do you believe that nothing is impossible with God except for your obedience to His Law?

What you don't realize is that we are freed from the letter of the old law, because we follow the Spirit of life in Christ, which goes much deeper than the Old Covenant laws you are referring to. When you follow the Spirit, it covers those laws and much more.

 

[1stcenturylady]

The new covenant is a different way of God dealing with His people (there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's economy ( Romans 10:11-13 ) Than during the age of the law.

First, the sign of the covenant has changed. Why? Because the physical outward sign of belonging to God wasn't what God wanted, He desired for us the inward change. That of circumcised hearts. So He removed the outward circumcision from the covenant - the sign is far deeper than that now.

The Bible wasn't saying that born Jews should continue to be circumcised under the new covenant. But they were using followers of Christ who were born Jews to preach to the as yet unsaved Jews precisely due to the fact of their circumcision. This way the message of Christ wouldn't be rejected before it was heard just because that message came from a Gentile.

Was their some confusion over whether the circumcision should be continued? Yes, but it was determined that outward physical circumcision was unnecessary - even for those of Israeli/Jewish ancestry.

But that change, that erasing of what was outwardly seen in favor of what is inward and from the heart is the hallmark of the new covenant.

Now, the Holy Spirit who now indwells us tells us right from wrong, tells us we are going astray, guides us to do what's right. It's no longer a law etched in stone, but one etched in our hearts. When we cross the line where concerns sin we know immediately if not sooner.

Can we ignore the spirit and sin anyway? Yes, but unlike when under the law because now we are in communion with His Holy Spirit..

Is it fairly well the same law? Yes and no.

God can tell someone to quit smoking and if the man continues then He has sinned against God. Can you go through scripture and learn why being addicted to cigarettes can be considered sinning against God? Yes.. you can. But smoking is certainly not addressed in levitical law anywhere..

So it's an entirely different relationship with God and God's law under the new covenant.

Our submission to God is in love and love only, our desire to be the children He wants us to become is total, and we listen to Him in every way..

I agree, but didn't see you mention what our New Covenant sign of the covenant is. It is 1 Corinthians 11:25 which points to the blood of Jesus.

 

[Soyeong]

What you don't realize is that we are freed from the letter of the law, because we follow the Spirit of life in Christ, which goes much deeper than the Old Covenant laws you are referring to. When you follow the Spirit, it covers those laws and more.

I agree that we should not follow the Law according to the letter. The distinction between following the letter of the law or the spirit of the law is not in regard to following different sets of laws, but in regard to the manner in which someone obeys it with respect to its intent, for example:

Leviticus 19:12 You shall not swear by my name falsely, and so profane the name of your God: I am the Lord.

Someone who is focused on obey the spirit of this law will understand that its intent is for us to not swear falsely, whereas someone who is focused on obeying the letter of this law exactly how it is written will understand that we can swear falsely just as long as we don't do so in God's name. Incidentally, this was the heart of Jesus was criticizing the Pharisees for doing in Matthew 23:16-22.

Furthermore, the Law is spiritual in that it has always intended to teach us deeper spiritual principles of which the listed laws are just examples, and of which are the character traits of God, such as holiness, righteousness, goodness, justice, mercy, faithfulness, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self-control. If we correctly understand a spiritual principle, then it will lead us to do things things that are examples of that principle in accordance with God's instructions for how to do that found in His Law, not away from doing those things. For example, if we correctly understand the principle of God's love, then it should lead us to express His love through our actions.

Likewise, when we have a character trait, then we will express it through our actions, so when God gives us His righteousness and declares us to be righteous, then He is also declaring us to be someone who expresses His righteousness through our actions in obedience to His instructions for how to do that found in His Law. We are not given the righteousness of God in order to hide it under a bushel, but in order to let it shine through our actions.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of lead us to obey the Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

 

[Soyeong]

The new covenant is a different way of God dealing with His people (there is no difference between Jew and Gentile in God's economy ( Romans 10:11-13 ) Than during the age of the law.

First, the sign of the covenant has changed. Why? Because the physical outward sign of belonging to God wasn't what God wanted, He desired for us the inward change. That of circumcised hearts. So He removed the outward circumcision from the covenant - the sign is far deeper than that now.

The Bible wasn't saying that born Jews should continue to be circumcised under the new covenant. But they were using followers of Christ who were born Jews to preach to the as yet unsaved Jews precisely due to the fact of their circumcision. This way the message of Christ wouldn't be rejected before it was heard just because that message came from a Gentile.

Was their some confusion over whether the circumcision should be continued? Yes, but it was determined that outward physical circumcision was unnecessary - even for those of Israeli/Jewish ancestry.

But that change, that erasing of what was outwardly seen in favor of what is inward and from the heart is the hallmark of the new covenant.

Now, the Holy Spirit who now indwells us tells us right from wrong, tells us we are going astray, guides us to do what's right. It's no longer a law etched in stone, but one etched in our hearts. When we cross the line where concerns sin we know immediately if not sooner.

Can we ignore the spirit and sin anyway? Yes, but its unlike when under the law because now we are in communion with His Holy Spirit..

Is it fairly well the same law? Yes and no.

God can tell someone to quit smoking and if the man continues then He has sinned against God under the new covenant. Can you go through scripture and learn why being addicted to cigarettes can be considered sinning against God? Yes.. you can. But smoking is certainly not addressed in levitical law anywhere..

So it's an entirely different relationship with God and God's law under the new covenant.

Our submission to God is in love and love only, our desire to be the children He wants us to become is total, and we listen to Him in every way.. but this is why we say it's different now... we aren't just checking boxes of what sins we committed or didn't commit. We have communion with Gods Spirit and right and wrong can be slightly more individual.

Key to the New Covenant is love.

God is a jealous God.

In Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to God's Law, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 10:12-11:1, 30:6)

The confusion over circumcision was not in regard to following God's command, but in regard to it being used for a man-made purpose that God did not require, which was actually contrary to the purposes of God. In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, but God never required all Gentiles to become circumcised, nor was God's command for all Jews to become circumcised given for the purpose of becoming saved.

In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of lead us to obey the Law. In Romans 8:4-7, those who walk in the Spirit are contrasted with those who have a mind set on the flesh who refuse to submit to God's Law. In Galatians 5:19-22, everything listed as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law, while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, so yes, it is the same Law.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in Deuteronomy 10:12-11:1, the way to love God with all of our heart and souls is by obeying His commandments, in John 14:15, if we love Jesus, then we will obey his commandments, and in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, so obedience to God has always been about expressing our love for God, not about checking boxes.

 

[Strong in Him]

I agree that Jesus fulfilled the law, as he literally states he came to fulfill the law:
Matthew 5:17 I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
But in the next sentence, Jesus states not one iota of the law will change until heaven and earth pass away.

It hasn't passed away.
Those who refuse to, or cannot, accept Jesus as the Messiah and fulfiller of the law, or drink his blood of the NEW Covenant, are still under the law.
Jesus was talking to Pharisees who did not accept him but lived by the law.

The law hasn't changed or disappeared - but we aren't under it. We are IN Christ, who has fulfilled the law.

 

[The Times]

When the old temple was replaced with the new.

When the old priesthood was replaced with the new and irreplaceable kingly priesthood.

When the wriiten law was replaced by the Holy Spirit on pentecost.

Jesus said he will raise it up on the 3rd day.

So, the Temple along with the priesthood was changed under the symbol of Eliakim Jesus Christ who opens doors that can't be shut and shuts doors that can't be opened.

The Crowned Monarch Jesus Christ was given the keys/throne to the house of David.

Israel became a commonwealth under Christ Jesus and Jerusalem became the Royal Priesthood (The Eklessia) under Christ Jesus.

 

[discipler7]

When did/will the old covenant end?

It depends on what is being referred, ie wrt salvation or wrt deeds of lawfulness/lawlessness.

After Jesus Christ died on the Cross, the Law could no longer save people from hell when they die(cf; LUKE.16:19-31), but the consequences of the Law still hold true, ie the earthly blessings and curses of the Law(DEUT.28).

The Jews today still wrongly believe that they will be saved from hell by just keeping God's Law, as many laws as possible.

 

[Dave L]

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, so it is impossible to obey God's commandments apart from love.

“Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;” (1 Timothy 1:9–10)

God aimed the Ten Commandments at those who could not live according to the Two Great Commandments. These no one can keep these unless born again (circumcised in heart).

God harnessed the Jew's greed offering temporal rewards for obedience. While threatening death for disobedience.

 

[Dave L]

In Acts 15:1, they were wanting to require all Gentiles to become circumcised in order to become saved, however, this is not something that God ever commanded. While there were a couple instances where God did command some Gentiles to become circumcised, God never commanded it of all Gentiles. Furthermore, while God did command all Jews to become circumcised, not even Jews were commanded to do so in order to become saved, so circumcision was being used for a man-made purpose that was in fact contrary to the purposes of God. As such, a ruling against requiring Gentiles to do something that God never commanded should not be taken as a ruling against Gentiles obeying what God has commanded.

“And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” (Genesis 17:14)

Circumcision made one a physical Jew or Hebrew/Israelite. Not blood.

 

[Dave L]

So then it was still present after the cross?

Hebrews said it was passing away at the time written. But the thief on the cross went to heaven under the New Covenant. As did all New Covenant converts from then on.

 

[Hillsage]

The new covenant began with the preaching and teaching of John the Baptist and and then with Jesus by teaching and manifesting the things of the kingdom of God. It was fulfilled at the cross. The beginning of the end of the old covenant was also with the cross. But it’s end was with the destruction of the temple and blood sacrifice system of animals. It was still fading according to the book of Hebrews which was written about 65 AD.

Hebrews 8:13