• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Muslims: what is the logic behind these verses in the Qur'an?

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It isn't in Christianity. According to the NT adultery is the only valid cause for divorce. Even abuse isn't sufficient cause, unlike Islam.
In the Orthodox Church if the couples share no compassion towards each other, one partner being absent from the other, abuse, or adultery are all valid cases for divorce. According to Islam a man can hit his wife, but a women can’t hit her husband back:

Does a woman have the right to hit her husband if he mistreats her? - islamqa.info

Beating your wife is wrong so is the marriage of multiple wives.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
It isn't in Christianity. According to the NT adultery is the only valid cause for divorce. Even abuse isn't sufficient cause, unlike Islam.
The Bible repeatedly says what an ideal marriage should look like and since abuse isn’t mentioned as ideal in marriage it shouldn’t be done, you also never bothered to deny Islam allows wife beating. Abuse is condemned in the New Testament you just have to learn how to look:

Restored Relationships
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
In the Orthodox Church if thhe couples share no compassion towards each other, one partner being absent from the other, abuse, or adultery are all valid cases for divorce. According to Islam a man can hit his wife, but a women can’t hit her husband back:
Does a woman have the right to hit her husband if he mistreats her? - islamqa.info
Beating your wife is wrong so is the marriage of multiple wives.

Just cause you can find some Shaykh to issue a fatwa saying she can't retaliate does not make it so. I would be more impressed if you provided documentation of what you say from the Orthodox Church since unlike Islam they have an hierarchical structure to determine these. There is a surih where the Qur'an provides four steps a man should take if he believes his wife is unfaithful before divorcing her. There is a debate as to whether the final step before divorce which says daraba means to beat or to separate. But most of the scholars who insist it means to beat insist it should be done with nothing bigger than a siwaq (toothbrush.) The Qur'an allowed up to four marriages in order to care for widows and orphans but only if you can treat them all equally, something most Muslims would admit is impossible. But if it was so wrong why did the Tanakh not prohibit it? As for the NT it only restricts the number of wives church leaders may have. (Timothy and Titus.) Monogamy was a Roman practice. Christianity readily adopted it, not for the protection of women bu because it felt marriage was the second best choice after celibacy (better to marry than to burn.)
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Just cause you can find some Shaykh to issue a fatwa saying she can't retaliate does not make it so. I would be more impressed if you provided documentation of what you say from the Orthodox Church since unlike Islam they have an hierarchical structure to determine these. There is a surih where the Qur'an provides four steps a man should take if he believes his wife is unfaithful before divorcing her. There is a debate as to whether the final step before divorce which says daraba means to beat or to separate. But most of the scholars who insist it means to beat insist it should be done with nothing bigger than a siwaq (toothbrush.) The Qur'an allowed up to four marriages in order to care for widows and orphans but only if you can treat them all equally, something most Muslims would admit is impossible. But if it was so wrong why did the Tanakh not prohibit it? As for the NT it only restricts the number of wives church leaders may have. (Timothy and Titus.) Monogamy was a Roman practice. Christianity readily adopted it, not for the protection of women bu because it felt marriage was the second best choice after celibacy (better to marry than to burn.)
Islam also does have its own ulema who judge based on Quran and Sunnah. You know how hard a Siwaq is? They aren’t tooth brushes they are pieces of wood and when they are used for beating they are used as branches of wood not as the size used for teeth cleaning. Actually if you read the Old Testament it shows God was unhappy with Solomon for his marriage of multiple wives. According to Jews Polygamy was and is not considered ideal. The Tanakh doesn’t forbid or allow polygamy, it was just considered culturally acceptable at the time. Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular). “For the husband is the head of the wife [singular] … He who loves his wife [singular] loves himself. For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife [singular], and the two will become one flesh....Each one of you also must love his wife [singular] as he loves himself, and the wife [singular] must respect her husband [singular].” Christianity is based on Jewish principles, Romans also condoned homosexuality and sex, fornication was also considered acceptable. Christianity is based on Jewish laws and Jewish practices which brought the scorn of many Romans.

The key clauses are "you will not be able to do justice to the orphans" and "you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose." Maududi (d. 1979) is a respected traditional and conservative commentator on the Quran. So we should let him explain what they mean. He says that the clauses accomplished three things:

First, in pre-Islamic Arabia, guardian men married the orphan girls under their care, so the Quran says that they should direct their attention to women other than the orphans.

Second, in pre-Islamic days men used to marry a limitless number of women and grab the property of their orphan nephews and nieces to support their wives.

Third, in pre-Islamic days, men could marry as many women as they wanted and "treat them cruelly and unjustly" with impunity. So the Quran limits the number to four, and only if the man could keep care of them all: "But if you apprehend that you might not be able to do justice to them."

Maududi concludes that probably all three correctives were intended by this verse (vol. 1, pp. 306-07, note 4).

Also, the clause "marry those who have fallen in your possession" means slave-girls who were captured in a war. Men may "marry" them because slaves do not incur very much expense, not as much as free women do. Maududi paraphrases the meaning of the clause: "If you need more than one [wife] but are afraid that you might not be able to do justice to your wives from among the free people, you may turn to slave girls because in that case you will be burdened with less responsibilities" (note 6). This is not surprising, since the slave-girl was sexual property (see Sura 4:24). This means that the limit of four wives is artificial. Men could have sex with as many women as they wanted from among their slaves.

Despite these different conditions, we should step back and look at the big picture. It may be true that Muhammad was curtailing the polygamous custom of Arabs who lived around him, but he did not go far enough. A man may "marry" four wives, but have sex with his slave-girls, and the number of these latter is not limited. According to the timeless and universal Quran, therefore, Muslims today have the right to practice polygamy. Wherever Islam engages in the slave trade or captures women prisoners of war, Muslims may have sex with them.

Muhammad and the treatment of wives
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
That doesn't make it grounds for divorce.
Yes it does, if it does not condone abuse in marriage then abuse if obviously not acceptable in marriage and viable for divorce.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
Islam also does have its own ulema who judge based on Quran and Sunnah.

Of course, they have 'ulama. My point is that, except in the case of Shi'ism which is a bit different, they don't have a hierarchical structure and for every fatwa you can find on the internet there are a dozen more that say the opposite.

You know how hard a Siwaq is? They aren’t tooth brushes they are pieces of wood and when they are used for beating they are used as branches of wood not as the size used for teeth cleaning.

The intent was clearly a toothbrush.

Actually if you read the Old Testament it shows God was unhappy with Solomon for his marriage of multiple wives.

The Tanakh was critical of Solomon marrying foreign wives, not the number. Nothing is said about David inheriting Saul's wives.

According to Jews Polygamy was and is not considered ideal.
It is not 'ideal' in Islam either. It was deemed necessary in the Qur'an in those cases where warfare had created an excess of wives and orphans.

T
he Tanakh doesn’t forbid or allow polygamy

If it is not forbidden it is allowed, and unlike the Qur'an, the Tanakh places no limit on the number of wives a man could have period.

,
it was just considered culturally acceptable at the time. Ephesians 5:22-33 speaks of the relationship between husbands and wives. When referring to a husband (singular), it always also refers to a wife (singular).

Sorry, not evidence of a prohibition on polygamy.

The key clauses are "you will not be able to do justice to the orphans" and "you may marry two or three or four women whom you choose." Maududi (d. 1979) is a respected traditional and conservative commentator on the Quran.

More than conservative, he was a darling to terrorist organizations like al-Qaeda.

So we should let him explain what they mean.

So we should let an ideologue for the terrorists decide what they mean? Naah, I don't think so. But it is true that the Qur'an, unlike the Bible puts an explicit limit on the number of wives a man can have. And yes, as in the Tanakh men were allowed to have slave-concubines as both Abraham and Jacob did. But there is one thing good about allowing this which did not happen in Christianity. Because the offspring of such unions were considered legitimate, they continued to be heirs to their fathers whereas in the antebellum US those children remained slaves.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
Yes it does, if it does not condone abuse in marriage then abuse if obviously not acceptable in marriage and viable for divorce.

Not what the Bible says. And I think you mean liable, not viable. And by the way, posting urls from hate sites like Answering Islam, doesn't help your case.
 
Upvote 0

James2018

Active Member
Jun 27, 2018
137
38
69
Buffalo
✟2,317.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Anyone


I see you are as hostile to Catholics as you are to Muslims. If you'd actually read both books you would not imagine one is plagiarized from the other. Yes, some of the same stories appear in both but do you conclude Chronicles is plagiarized off of Kings?
Let's assume that both of us have read the same books

or at least sincerely thought about these topics.

An even more sincere question to me would have been

why do you make those statements ?

You're the one who attacked me personally.

Then you accused me of doing it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Not what the Bible says. And I think you mean liable, not viable. And by the way, posting urls from hate sites like Answering Islam, doesn't help your case.
Sorry it isn’t a hate site, it gives Islamic sources to refute Islamic claims, a hate site is a site that uses derogatory and unproven claims. Yes that is what the Bible says, and yes I meant to say liable.
 
Upvote 0

James2018

Active Member
Jun 27, 2018
137
38
69
Buffalo
✟2,317.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
If you are going to go around attacking other people's religion you deserve to be called on it.
oh, ok, so if someone verbally attacks a system of thought
then it's ok then for everyone in that group
to verbally attack people personally
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Of course, they have 'ulama. My point is that, except in the case of Shi'ism which is a bit different, they don't have a hierarchical structure and for every fatwa you can find on the internet there are a dozen more that say the opposite.



The intent was clearly a toothbrush.



The Tanakh was critical of Solomon marrying foreign wives, not the number. Nothing is said about David inheriting Saul's wives.


It is not 'ideal' in Islam either. It was deemed necessary in the Qur'an in those cases where warfare had created an excess of wives and orphans.

T

If it is not forbidden it is allowed, and unlike the Qur'an, the Tanakh places no limit on the number of wives a man could have period.

,

Sorry, not evidence of a prohibition on polygamy.



More than conservative, he was a darling to terrorist organizations like al-Qaeda.



So we should let an ideologue for the terrorists decide what they mean? Naah, I don't think so. But it is true that the Qur'an, unlike the Bible puts an explicit limit on the number of wives a man can have. And yes, as in the Tanakh men were allowed to have slave-concubines as both Abraham and Jacob did. But there is one thing good about allowing this which did not happen in Christianity. Because the offspring of such unions were considered legitimate, they continued to be heirs to their fathers whereas in the antebellum US those children remained slaves.
Well then you just admitted Muslims have no real teachings or structure which to give Fatwas that don’t contradict, however I for one like to listen to the Fatwas that agree more with textual and historical context. Nope, Siwaq is also used to whip criminals where I’m from, the intent is not toothbrush. It means Siwaq the branch. The evidence was there, it addresses always in singular, martial marriage is never described in plural. If you actually read the text you’d actually see God was angry at the number of wives Solomon took, as the more wives he took the more they would turn him away from God. Abraham and Jacob did in specific situations. If it is not explicitly banned in the text it does not make It permissible by that logic we can walk in the nude. Al Qaeda are more Muslim then most Muslims are, atleast they’re honest, conservative doesn’t make him wrong either as he quotes form his sources and is an Islamic scholar. Anything done by the messengers of Allah is to be repeated by his followers and is ideal and Mohammed practiced polygamy. If we read 1 Kings 11:3-4 we see that Polygamy is not ideal at all and frowned upon in the eyes of God.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
If you are going to go around attacking other people's religion you deserve to be called on it.
For some reason your defending a book of a religion that hates yours, if your defending Islam your attacking your own faith.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
Sorry it isn’t a hate site, it gives Islamic sources to refute Islamic claims, a hate site is a site that uses derogatory and unproven claims. Yes that is what the Bible says, and yes I meant to say liable.
Going to Answering Islam to find out information about Islam is like going to the Atheist Foundation to find out about Christianity. Show me the explicit verse which states that an abused wife can divorce her husband.
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
For some reason your defending a book of a religion that hates yours, if your defending Islam your attacking your own faith.
I defend the Qur'an for the same reason Christians defend the Tanakh although Jews don't think much of Christianity. If that is attacking my own faith then anything you say positive about the OT is an attack on Christianity.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dlamberth
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I defend the Qur'an for the same reason Christians defend the Tanakh although Jews don't think much of Christianity. If that is attacking my own faith then anything you say positive about the OT is an attack on Christianity.
There is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament if you look with an open heart, however there is a contradiction when someone claims to be the last prophet then someone else shows up claiming to be a prophet.
 
Upvote 0

Barney2.0

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 1, 2017
6,003
2,336
Los Angeles
✟473,721.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Going to Answering Islam to find out information about Islam is like going to the Atheist Foundation to find out about Christianity. Show me the explicit verse which states that an abused wife can divorce her husband.
Answering Islam gives sources and refutes the claims of Muslims against Christianity, it’s not about finding out about Islam it’s about refuting Islamic claims against Christianity, neither do I mind going on an Athiest site to see their own allegations to Christianity. I already gave you a verse and here it is:

https://www.restoredrelationships.org/news/2016/01/11/domestic-abuse-divorce/
 
Upvote 0

smaneck

Baha'i
Sep 29, 2010
21,182
2,948
Jackson, MS
✟63,144.00
Gender
Female
Faith
Baha'i
Marital Status
Single
There is no contradiction between the Old Testament and the New Testament if you look with an open heart, however there is a contradiction when someone claims to be the last prophet then someone else shows up claiming to be a prophet.

The Qur'an never says anything about a "last" Prophet, it says Muhammad is the Khatam Nabi "Seal of the Prophets." What that means is open to debate, but Baha'u'llah never called Himself a nabi in any case. And by the way, I was a Christian when I first read the Bible. As to whether there are contradictions between the Tanakh and the New Testament, Jews would beg to differ but if you use the same logic you use to reconcile the Old Testament with the New and apply it to the Qur'an you'll find it works fine.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0