Justifying Tithing without Abraham

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

For those who believe in the modern concept of the 10% tithe on your entire income, can you support your belief Biblically without Abraham or Jacob.

Why this premise. Simple, Abraham did not tithe on income, he tithed the spoils of war and to further press that issue is that Abraham stated he would not take once penny of any of the spoils of war. Therefore, Abraham had not income at all in that situation. So how could anyone use that for the modern concept of tithing?

Jacob told God I will tithe only if you bless me. Wow, many modern day tithers would flip out if you put that test to God. According to modern day tithers we are suppose to give 10% no matter what, even if you can't pay your bills. That is not what Jacob said. Jacob said if you bless me I will tithe and if not forget you God.

So without Abraham and Jacob how can those who believe in tithing justify that tithing is not a part of the law without these two.

If this has been dealth with I apologize. But I am truely interested if there is a way to justify a 10% tithe without these two people because I just can't see how they can be used for the concept of a pre-law notion of tithing.

 

[sunlover1]

Hmm, i don't tithe according to Abraham, but interesting thread.
I tithe because I love to give back to God.
The tithe money or offering money or whatever you want to call it
is such a blessing to the Lord and the Body of Christ!
Paul talks about it at length in 2 Corinthians 9 or 10 and if you read that
while under the influence of God's Spirit, it will make you want to give
90% and keep 10 lol.
Nothing wrong with giving or tithing or blessing or offerings .. ever.
That widow gave her little mite and Jesus made a big deal out of that.
What the heck? Wooot!
We think backwards too much lol

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Hmm, i don't tithe according to Abraham, but interesting thread.
I tithe because I love to give back to God.
The tithe money or offering money or whatever you want to call it
is such a blessing to the Lord and the Body of Christ!
Paul talks about it at length in 2 Corinthians 9 or 10 and if you read that
while under the influence of God's Spirit, it will make you want to give
90% and keep 10 lol.
Nothing wrong with giving or tithing or blessing or offerings .. ever.
That widow gave her little mite and Jesus made a big deal out of that.
What the heck? Wooot!
We think backwards too much lol

I was not attempting to discredit giving but rather wanted to hear if there is a way to justify tithing without using Abraham or Jacob. As I see it tithing is part of the law and the only way tithers have been able to get around that is is point to Abraham and Jacob and I just can't see how that fits the modern day concept of tithing.

 

[Ron Gurley]

There is no mention to command titheing in the NT.

Hebrews 7
For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham as he was returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham apportioned a tenth part of all the spoils, was first of all, by the translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then also king of Salem, which is king of peace. Without father, without mother, without genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but made like the Son of God, he remains a priest perpetually.

NT Giving:

2 Corinthians 9:7
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. (spirit-led)

 

[sunlover1]

I was not attempting to discredit giving but rather wanted to hear if there is a way to justify tithing without using Abraham or Jacob. As I see it tithing is part of the law and the only way tithers have been able to get around that is is point to Abraham and Jacob and I just can't see how that fits the modern day concept of tithing.

Hmm.
Well, I thought tithing was before the law.
So,, in that case, it transcends the law.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Malachi 3 is future tense, at first speaking of the time of the Messiah and the end of the chapter referring to Him making up His jewels with those that fear Him and that have hearkened unto Him with tithes and offerings. He even offers a blessing on those that do...

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

 

[RDKirk]

Hmm.
Well, I thought tithing was before the law.
So,, in that case, it transcends the law.

See Post #1

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Hmm.
Well, I thought tithing was before the law.
So,, in that case, it transcends the law.

But based on what scriptures? Abraham and Jacob is used to say it transcends the law, but as I stated it does not fit the paradigm. Without Abraham and Jacob then tithing actually was first given by the law.

 

[sunlover1]

See Post #1

oops. sorry.

But based on what scriptures? Abraham and Jacob is used to say it transcends the law, but as I stated it does not fit the paradigm. Without Abraham and Jacob then tithing actually was first given by the law.

But why does it matter that Abraham didn't tithe of "income"?
Any increase is from God.
AND, giving, tithing, offering.. whatever you want to call it, is
a good thing.
Always good.
IMO

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Using Malachi is a problem because it sa

Malachi 3 is future tense, at first speaking of the time of the Messiah and the end of the chapter referring to Him making up His jewels with those that fear Him and that have hearkened unto Him with tithes and offerings. He even offers a blessing on those that do...

Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Malachi 3 is a problem because it says if you don't do it you are cursed. Well that certainly implies the law. Furthermore, Jesus redeemed us from the curse, therefore canceling out the curse spoken here in Malachi.

Furthermore Malachi says bring the tithe so that there will be food in my house, not money. In the law there was more than one tithe.

In context Malachi does speak future tense of the coming Lord but then it switches to present tense. Further, it does not say that tithing is future tense implying that it continues. And in addition, unless you can show scripture to suggest that tithing is outside the law, then tithing is not for today.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

oops. sorry.

But why does it matter that Abraham didn't tithe of "income"?
Any increase is from God.
AND, giving, tithing, offering.. whatever you want to call it, is
a good thing.
Always good.
IMO

I agree. But many churches push that you have to pay tithes to God, 10% of my gross income whether I can pay my bills or not. The concept of 10% of your gross income does not exist in the Bible, unless someone can show me scriptures that support that idea.

In the law, tithing was all on farm produce, no where does it say to tithe your money.

This is not an arguement against giving, its about being put under a legalist system that does not exist in the Bible saying that you have to give 10% of your gross income whether you can pay your bills or not.

I have heard preachers say you better pay your tithes instead of your mortgage or car payment or else God will get you. As I see that, what a lot of rubbish, because I can not find any scripture to support such modern day tithing preachers.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree. But many churches push that you have to pay tithes to God, 10% of my gross income whether I can pay my bills or not. The concept of 10% of your gross income does not exist in the Bible, unless someone can show me scriptures that support that idea.

In the law, tithing was all on farm produce, no where does it say to tithe your money.

This is not an arguement against giving, its about being put under a legalist system that does not exist in the Bible saying that you have to give 10% of your gross income whether you can pay your bills or not.

I have heard preachers say you better pay your tithes instead of your mortgage or car payment or else God will get you. As I see that, what a lot of rubbish, because I can not find any scripture to support such modern day tithing preachers.

God has asked us to prove Him in this matter which my wife and I have done many years ago... God makes 90% to go much further than the 100% we used to control.

 

[sunlover1]

I agree. But many churches push that you have to pay tithes to God, 10% of my gross income whether I can pay my bills or not. The concept of 10% of your gross income does not exist in the Bible, unless someone can show me scriptures that support that idea.

In the law, tithing was all on farm produce, no where does it say to tithe your money.

I thought that that's what they used for trading, spices and livestock etc
Thought that WAS their currency.

This is not an arguement against giving, its about being put under a legalist system that does not exist in the Bible saying that you have to give 10% of your gross income whether you can pay your bills or not.

Well that's stupid and a no brainer!

I have heard preachers say you better pay your tithes instead of your mortgage or car payment or else God will get you. As I see that, what a lot of rubbish, because I can not find any scripture to support such modern day tithing preachers.

Wow, I used to watch Christian sermons on tv literally non stop.
Never heard such a crazy mandate.
Hope people use their heads and common sense lol.

 

[sunlover1]

God has asked us to prove Him in this matter which my wife and I have done many years ago... God makes 90% to go much further than the 100% we used to control.

Went from 25 grand to 100 grand income in one year.
I always assumed it was due to the giving.
This was long time ago.
i'm in a new season now lol

 

[RDKirk]

But based on what scriptures? Abraham and Jacob is used to say it transcends the law, but as I stated it does not fit the paradigm. Without Abraham and Jacob then tithing actually was first given by the law.

Here is the thing: Nothing transcends one covenant but it's fulfillment and the establishment of another covenant.

God did not invent the concept of tithing. Tithing already had a definition under man's law in Abraham's time. The law of the land in Abraham's time was the Law of Hammurabi. That law defines the tithe as 10% payment made to the owner of a land from any profit gained from that land (Section 61 of the Law of Hammurabi, if I recall correctly). That was the law Abraham obeyed when he tithed of the spoils he gained from the robber-kings while in the land of Melchizedek.

God created His own definition of "tithe" in His own covenant with Moses. God's definition overwrites Hammurabi's definition and every other man-made definition.

God's definition is specifically defined: What it is, what it is not, how it is to be selected, when it is to occur, where it is to be given, how it is to be given. God's tithe is part of His covenant with Israel. It's linked to the curse of the Mosaic Law, and thus it must be obeyed precisely as given--there can be no "strange incense" to any provision of God's covenant.

And God never re-defined the tithe, so His original definition still stands. We can't just make up something else and call it "tithe." We can't have a beer an pizza party and call it "communion." We can't do just any kind of giving and call it the "tithe." If you don't do it right--if you offer "strange incense," you come under the curse of the Law.

That's why Jews today do not tithe. It's impossible for them to do it according to the Law, so they don't claim to do it at all. Rather, they have another offering they call a "fairness offering."

The apostles never spoke of tithing. Remember, during the time of the New Testament scriptures, the Jews were still tithing under the Law in Jerusalem. It was still a real thing. If the apostles meant for believers to tithe according to the Law, they would have sent them to the temple, and that would be recorded in scripture. It would have been a subject just like circumcision.

Rather, the apostles gave the Church different instructions for giving:

All the believers were together and had everything in common. -- Acts 2

No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. -- Acts 4

Our desire is not that others might be relieved while you are hard pressed, but that there might be equality. At the present time your plenty will supply what they need, so that in turn their plenty will supply what you need. The goal is equality, as it is written: “The one who gathered much did not have too much, and the one who gathered little did not have too little.” -- 2 Corinthians 8

If there were no specific instructions provided by the New Testament, maybe we would have to look back to the Old Testament. But because the New Testament provides better instructions, those of the Old Testament have been superseded.

By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear. -- Hebrews 8

 

[RDKirk]

I thought that that's what they used for trading, spices and livestock etc
Thought that WAS their currency.

No, they had a money economy.

When they [your firstborn sons] are a month old, you must redeem them at the redemption price set at five shekels of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel, which weighs twenty gerahs. --Numbers 18

So they had money.

Eat the tithe of your grain, new wine and olive oil, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks in the presence of the Lord your God at the place he will choose as a dwelling for his Name, so that you may learn to revere the Lord your God always.

But if that place is too distant and you have been blessed by the Lord your God and cannot carry your tithe (because the place where the Lord will choose to put his Name is so far away), then exchange your tithe for silver, and take the silver with you and go to the place the Lord your God will choose. Use the silver to buy whatever you like: cattle, sheep, wine or other fermented drink, or anything you wish. Then you and your household shall eat there in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice. -- Deuteronomy 14

A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD -- Deuteronomy 27

Notice that the tithe presented was required to be food. Even if they had only money (for instance, after having exchanged it for silver to make a long trip), they were still required then to buy food with that money and use the food as the tithe. Food must be the tithe--God said so and He never revised that instruction.

Moreover, there are preachers who insist that the tithe must come "off the top" before anything else. But that's not what God said. God said:

Every tithe of the herd and flock—every tenth animal that passes under the shepherd’s rod—will be holy to the LORD. -- Deuteronomy 27

Not the first animal, but the tenth animal. That meant a poor man who only had nine animals did not tithe.

You may have heard "tithe your best." Sorry, that's not what God said. God said:

No one may pick out the good from the bad or make any substitution. If anyone does make a substitution, both the animal and its substitute become holy and cannot be redeemed. -- Deuteronomy 27

When God has specifically defined an act of obedience, we can't do something else and call it "obedience." Either do what He instructed exactly as He instructed, or call it something else.

People have been making up stuff and calling it a "tithe" to make people anxious about being under the curse of the Law. They're wrong.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

Went from 25 grand to 100 grand income in one year.
I always assumed it was due to the giving.
This was long time ago.
i'm in a new season now lol

I do think there could be something to giving. I have heard of a number of testimonies of people who attribute their giving as a distinct event in their lives when their finances increased. But it was not started by the concept of a 10% tithe. But rather giving what they could and as money increased so did their giving. JC Penny is one famous person that did that. He started giving to a church less then 10% and at the end of his life he was giving 90% and living on 10% because he was so wealthy. It was a revelation to him.

 

[EternallyKeptByJesus]

God has asked us to prove Him in this matter which my wife and I have done many years ago... God makes 90% to go much further than the 100% we used to control.

We have to be careful that what we think God is saying is actually scriptural. Even if experience seems to back up our belief, if it contradicts God's word then we have to rethink what we thought was from God.

You may have been able to live on 90% of your income, but try being in poverty as some are. Giving 10% can be a matter of having a home, a car, food for that day or giving an unscriptural principal of a 10% tithing.

 

[RDKirk]

I do think there could be something to giving. I have heard of a number of testimonies of people who attribute their giving as a distinct event in their lives when their finances increased. But it was not started by the concept of a 10% tithe. But rather giving what they could and as money increased so did their giving. JC Penny is one famous person that did that. He started giving to a church less then 10% and at the end of his life he was giving 90% and living on 10% because he was so wealthy. It was a revelation to him.

That's the basic principle of good stewardship, which Jesus stated several times.

In the early 90s, I was a member of Calvary Chapel of Honolulu under pastor Bill Stonebraker. Stonebraker had stated, "Every member has a resource, every member has a need," and he urged us all to pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal each to us so that we could deliver both to the congregation.

One member owned a Chevron service station with three service bays. The Holy Spirit directed him to offer two of his service bays one Saturday a month for the use of the congregation. He offered to provide repairs for anything that could be done in a day, including parts at his expense. His chief mechanic--also a member--offered his services for that day. There was a professional mechanic from Honda and another from Chevrolet who were members--they offered their service. I was a pretty decent shadetree mechanic on Fords and Chryslers, so I jumped in with them.

The pastor already kept a "Widows and Single Mother's" list--being careful to watch after widows and fatherless children as instructed by scripture. Knowing that auto breakdowns were a big problem for such women, he scheduled each woman on the list to bring her car to the "Car Clinic" one Saturday every three months. We went over their cars doing maintenance and repair as needed.

The station owner told me that when he made the offer, he expected to count his costs and losses as a donation to the church. He said that instead, there were never any losses. His overall business profits rose immediately and covered everything the repair business he lost and and spent.

The Holy Spirit had already told me just a couple of years earlier, "I want you to be at the head of the blessing chain, not at the tail. If I instruct you to feed someone else, you will always have enough food for yourself and for him."

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

We have to be careful that what we think God is saying is actually scriptural. Even if experience seems to back up our belief, if it contradicts God's word then we have to rethink what we thought was from God.

You may have been able to live on 90% of your income, but try being in poverty as some are. Giving 10% can be a matter of having a home, a car, food for that day or giving an unscriptural principal of a 10% tithing.

Where is your trust in God to provide for your needs? If you are faithful to Him He will be faithful as well...

Malachi 3:10
Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

Psalm 9:10
And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.

Psalm 18:30
As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the Lord is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.

Psalm 34:8
O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.

Psalm 37:3-5
Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.
Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.
Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.