Did Jesus and the apostles quote from the Septuagint?

[Steve Petersen]

Agreed many would have spoken to each other in Hebrew.

The NT is written in Greek and the language of the empire was Greek from the time of the Greek Empire that ruled in Jerusalem as well - so they had already had a few centuries to "learn the language" by the time the NT texts came along.

Notice that when Paul is arrested in Jerusalem the crowd becomes instantly quiet and respectful when he switches to the Hebrew language.

Perhaps I should have said 'read at all' rather than 'read Greek.'

Jewish Literacy in Roman Palestine

 

[JackRT]

The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text (the Textus Receptus) that was marred by mistakes, containing the accumulated errors of fourteen centuries of manuscript copying. It was essentially the Greek text of the New Testament as edited by Beza, 1589, who closely followed that published by Erasmus, 1516-1535, which was based upon a few medieval manuscripts. The earliest and best of the eight manuscripts which Erasmus consulted was from the tenth century, and yet he made the least use of it because it differed most from the commonly received text; Beza had access to two manuscripts of great value, dating from the fifth and sixth centuries, but he made very little use of them because they differed from the text published by Erasmus. We now possess many more ancient manuscripts (about 9000 compared to just 10) of the New Testament, and thanks to another 400 years of biblical scholarship, are far better equipped to seek to recover the original wording of the Greek text. Much as we might love the KJV and the majesty of it’s Jacobean English, modern translations are more accurate.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps I should have said 'read at all' rather than 'read Greek.'

But when Jesus was probably about six years old, like every other six-year old Jewish boy, He would have gone to the local synagogue school called Bet Sefer. Only the boys went for five or six days a week. The teacher would teach his students the first five books of the Bible: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy, along with some other general basis education. On the first day of their school, the rabbi would give each boy a taste of honey and say, “May the words of God be sweet to your taste, sweeter than honey to your mouth,” from Psalm 119: 103.

From ages 10-14, Jewish boys learned the rest of the Jewish Scriptures all the way to Malachi. Do you remember when Mary and Joseph thought Jesus was lost, but they found Him in the Temple? Do you know how old He was then? He was 12 and was sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening and asking questions.

Luke 2
45 So when they did not find Him, they returned to Jerusalem, seeking Him. 46 Now so it was that after three days they found Him in the temple, sitting in the midst of the teachers, both listening to them and asking them questions. 47 And all who heard Him were astonished at His understanding and answers

Luke 24
25 And He said to them, “O foolish men and slow of heart to believe in all that the prophets have spoken! 26 Was it not necessary for the Christ to suffer these things and to enter into His glory?” 27 Then beginning with Moses and with all the prophets, He explained to them the things concerning Himself in all the Scriptures.

44 Now He said to them, “These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled.” 45 Then He opened their minds to understand the Scriptures, 46 and He said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day, 47 and that repentance for forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in His name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things


Matthew 22
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God.

 

[BobRyan]

The King James Version of the New Testament was based upon a Greek text (the Textus Receptus) .

And the NT writers - were writing in Greek - which was the international language of the Roman Empire still left as a hold-over from the time of the Greek empire.

 

[Dave-W]

It is highly doubtful that simple Galileans read Greek.

Perhaps I should have said 'read at all' rather than 'read Greek.'

Your article aside, Hebrew (or more precisely Aramaic) literacy was very high in Judean men in the first century. All men over the age of 13 were expected to read from the Torah scroll on any given Sabbath. To facilitate that, many rabbis translated the biblical Hebrew into Aramaic. Those documents are known as "Targums."

The synagogue system was meant to find those men with aptitude to be rabbis. If they showed such aptitude they were sent at about age 5 to a training school. But even those who did not make that grade could read and write. (at least Aramaic)

You were right the first time.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Your article aside, Hebrew (or more precisely Aramaic) literacy was very high in Judean men in the first century. All men over the age of 13 were expected to read from the Torah scroll on any given Sabbath. To facilitate that, many rabbis translated the biblical Hebrew into Aramaic. Those documents are known as "Targums."

The synagogue system was meant to find those men with aptitude to be rabbis. If they showed such aptitude they were sent at about age 5 to a training school. But even those who did not make that grade could read and write. (at least Aramaic)

You were right the first time.

Could you source that?

 

[Dave-W]

And the NT writers - were writing in Greek

Perhaps.

Of course Paul would have written in Greek to his Greek audiences. Not so sure about the rest of the NT books. There is evidence of some of the books being written originally in Aramaic and then later translated into Greek.

 

[Dave-W]

Could you source that?

Go visit your local Synagogue and take a course in 2nd Temple period Judaism.

 

[BobRyan]

Perhaps.
Of course Paul would have written in Greek to his Greek audiences. Not so sure about the rest of the NT books. There is evidence of some of the books being written originally in Aramaic and then later translated into Greek.

1. They all had Greek audiences.
2. Luke was Greek and Acts written to the entire church.
3. Peter writes as though everyone -- including Jews - were reading Paul's letters.
4. In Paul's writing to Romans and Galatians it is clear that he thinks both Jews and gentiles are reading his letter.
5. In Acts 13 even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text.
6. In Acts 17:1-5 even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text.
7. In Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text.

 

[Dave-W]

they had to be using a Greek text.

That is an assumption Bob. History would indicate that in the synagogues in the first century, it was either Aramaic or Hebrew. Those in the far diaspora, like in Greece proper, It was anybody's guess what was used. Almost all of the rabbis were trained in 2 schools in Jerusalem: House of Shammai and House of Hillel. (Paul was trained in the latter) Neither of those 2 institutions approved of using the LXX text.

 

[BobRyan]

1. ALL NT books had Greek audiences.
2. Luke was Greek and his authorship of the text of Acts written to the entire church.
3. Peter writes as though everyone -- including Jews - were reading Paul's letters.
4. In Paul's writing to Romans and Galatians it is clear that he thinks both Jews and gentiles are reading his letter.
5. In Acts 13 even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text.
6. In Acts 17:1-5 even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text.
7. In Acts 18:4 "Every Sabbath" even in the non-Christian case - it is both Jews and Gentiles that are in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath for worship - they had to be using a Greek text

That is an assumption Bob. History would indicate that in the synagogues in the first century, it was either Aramaic or Hebrew.

Very unlikely that the gentiles were speaking or reading either Hebrew or Aramaic in Acts 13, Acts 17 or "every Sabbath" in Acts 18:4.

Those in the far diaspora, like in Greece proper, It was anybody's guess what was used.

The very areas where the church was growing the fastest and where the NT letters were being sent.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[straykat]

The whole reason the Septuagint was made was because Jews in the diaspora were losing touch with the originals.

This shouldn't be seen as inferior though.. since apparently the Jews got the best scholars around to do it. And if legends have any validity to them, they immediately got a widespread stamp of approval.

It's more likely that Jesus himself in Judea spoke Aramaic though (and obviously knew Hebrew enough to read from the Isaiah scroll). Aramaic was still extant in Palestine for well into the medieval era (and only really diminished when Muslims took over the area in the 7th century)... so I don't know why Jesus wouldn't speak it in the 1st century.

So even though the Gospel writers wrote in Greek, I don't think they were trying to say Jesus himself did. They even went out of their way to retain some of his Hebraisms: "Amen, amen I say you", "Talitha cumi", calling Simon "Kefa", etc.. And I doubt they themselves were native Greek speakers themselves. Their grammar/syntax structure isn't exactly normal. Like missing conjunctions typical in native Greek, redundant use of pronouns ("A woman whose little daughter of her had an unclean spirit" - Mk 7:25), redundant use of "saying" (And they said to him, saying, ‘John the Baptist’ -Mk 8:28)..

 

[Dave-W]

The whole reason the Septuagint was made was because Jews in the diaspora were losing touch with the originals.

Wrong. The "whole reason" the LXX was made was because Alexander the Great wanted to be able to read the Torah but did not want to take the time to learn Hebrew that well.

This shouldn't be seen as inferior though..

Absolutely it should. Greek (as coming from a very different language family) cannot convey the plays on words, the multiple levels of meaning and the inherent ambiguity of Hebrew.

apparently the Jews got the best scholars around to do it. And if legends have any validity to them, they immediately got a widespread stamp of approval.

No - there has NEVER been "widespread" acceptance of the LXX in Jewish society. In the Greek speaking diaspora - yes; but not in Judea or Babylon, which were the epicenters of Jews who wanted to maintain their proper Jewish heritage.

The legend was that Alexander the Great found 70 scholars fluent in both Greek and Hebrew and set them independently to translate the Torah. Legend says they each came up with word-for-word identical translations. BTW, Septuagint means "70."

 

[Dave-W]

So even though the Gospel writers wrote in Greek, I don't think they were trying to say Jesus himself did. They even went out of their way to retain some of his Hebraisms: "Amen, amen I say you", "Talitha cumi", calling Simon "Kefa", etc.. And I doubt they themselves were native Greek speakers themselves. Their grammar/syntax structure isn't exactly normal. Like missing conjunctions typical in native Greek, redundant use of pronouns ("A woman whose little daughter of her had an unclean spirit" - Mk 7:25), redundant use of "saying" (And they said to him, saying, ‘John the Baptist’ -Mk 8:28)..

And what is more interesting is that the Hebraic-type word plays of the Aramaic are all extant in the Peshita, the early Aramaic manuscripts of the NT. It would be virtually impossible to re-create them by translating from the Greek.

 

[straykat]

Wrong. The "whole reason" the LXX was made was because Alexander the Great wanted to be able to read the Torah but did not want to take the time to learn Hebrew that well.

Absolutely it should. Greek (as coming from a very different language family) cannot convey the plays on words, the multiple levels of meaning and the inherent ambiguity of Hebrew.

No - there has NEVER been "widespread" acceptance of the LXX in Jewish society. In the Greek speaking diaspora - yes; but not in Judea or Babylon, which were the epicenters of Jews who wanted to maintain their proper Jewish heritage.

The legend was that Alexander the Great found 70 scholars fluent in both Greek and Hebrew and set them independently to translate the Torah. Legend says they each came up with word-for-word identical translations. BTW, Septuagint means "70."

Alexander was already dead. It was Ptolemy II in Egypt who called for it. And the Jews agreed it'd be a good thing themselves. The High Priest formed the translation team himself. The only reason it gets associated with Alexander is because he wanted a Library.

And even Josephus spoke highly of it (and used it) and he was a priest born in Jerusalem.

 

[Dave-W]

Alexander was already dead. It was Ptolemy II in Egypt who called for it.

No. Alexander called for it but died before the project got fully underway. Ptolemy merely continued it.

 

[Dave-W]

The High Priest formed the translation team himself.

And the High Priesthood was completely corrupt at the time. It was the High priest that allowed the Greeks to set up an idol of Zeus in the Temple and officiated the slaughter of pigs to that idol. Those events eventually gave rise to the Maccabees.

 

[straykat]

No. Alexander called for it but died before the project got fully underway. Ptolemy merely continued it.

Alexander called for a library.. then went about his merry way. But this is legend really. Translations come about through necessity. The fact that you can start seeing Jews using Greek more and more shows that having scriptures in Greek as well would be a natural development.

I'm not sure we're actually in disagreement though. I'm the one proposing the same thing you did: Judea wasn't speaking it (maybe it was in the ports). I'm just talking about diaspora as you are.

 

[straykat]

And the High Priesthood was completely corrupt at the time. It was the High priest that allowed the Greeks to set up an idol of Zeus in the Temple and officiated the slaughter of pigs to that idol. Those events eventually gave rise to the Maccabees.

Maybe some were, but the Maccabee period was Antiochus IV, well after the LXX (at least Torah) was translated..and he was part of the Seleucid branch of Greeks..who went to war with the Ptolemy branch. I'm not sure we can deduce what the Jewish priesthood was like amidst all of this.

 

[BobRyan]

There are those who claim that that Christ and the apostles routinely used the Septuagint as their daily Bible and quoted from it often in the New Testament.

Jews living in Judea were most inclined to speak Hebrew but Greek would still have been the international language that they would have to know to interact with visitors or keep up with events outside of Judea.

In a number of examples "Tabitha arise" for example or "my God my God why have you forsaken me" it is Hebrew that is the close personal local language being used.

They said “Rabbi” (which being translated means Teacher), “where are you staying?” (John 1.38)

The authors make it clear that the locals are speaking Hebrew but the text of their discussion has been translated for the reader.

Who is doing that translation? -- John is doing it in the case of John 1:28.

The LXX was the "reference" text that they would have used for "outsiders" to reference - so for any text that they wanted to send all throughout Asia Minor to be read by the entire Christian church they would have it written in Greek and they would make sure the references to the "Law and the prophets" came in a form that the reader could "check out for himself".

So then Acts 17:11 "they studied the scriptures daily to SEE IF those things were so" -- what scriptures wold the gentiles and Helenized Jews in Berea have had??.

Answer: LXX

So then the "better translation" is going to be directly from the Hebrew for Hebrew texts - and this is the language that would have been accepted in Judea. But not likely that they could assume all readers outside of Israel would have access to.

in Christ,

Bob