LDS Mormon Religion "...come unto me and have everlasting life"

[Jane_Doe]

It's not a representation of LDS beliefs. It's not a speculation.

I have studied LDS beliefs very thoroughly (30+ years) and am just trying to explain actual LDS beliefs to you as there are frequent misunderstandings. If you want more clarification on LDS views in this regard, I'm happy to elaborate (such as your great questions below).

it's obvious that not only the founder of the Mormon religion taught this

Which in no way implies automatic infallibility. LDS believe that there's only been one perfect man to ever walk this earth (Christ), and all others do make some mistakes. LDS doctrine is not determined by what one man said (whoever it is who said it), but rather a unified voice of Christ's apostles/prophets. Here's a useful link on that subject: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

If you don't mind, point me to official LDS literature that defines what is believed about the Divine nature of the Holy Trinity and/or where I can find it.

Mormons and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

If you want any references for any specific points there, just let me know. Also if you want I can talk about theology on man.

 

[truefiction1]

I have studied LDS beliefs very thoroughly (30+ years) and am just trying to explain actual LDS beliefs to you as there are frequent misunderstandings. If you want more clarification on LDS views in this regard, I'm happy to elaborate (such as your great questions below).

Which in no way implies automatic infallibility. LDS believe that there's only been one perfect man to ever walk this earth (Christ), and all others do make some mistakes. LDS doctrine is not determined by what one man said (whoever it is who said it), but rather a unified voice of Christ's apostles/prophets. Here's a useful link on that subject: Approaching Mormon Doctrine


Mormons and Athanasian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity.
Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

If you want any references for any specific points there, just let me know. Also if you want I can talk about theology on man.

If Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity, as you say, and don't teach that the three Divine persons are con-substantial, then Mormon Trinitarian theology is false. Should it not therefor be rejected, along with the very authority of any and all prophets, teachers who promote this absurd and harmful distortion of the Truth?

 

[Anto9us]

Athanasian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation.

Well, Jane, to be picky -- I prefer to be called a Trinitarian Christian rather than Athanasian Christian; and I haven't the foggiest what you mean by 'co-substantiation'

Athanasius the person was great -- the Athanasian Creed I do not deem to be written by him at all, and consider it more of a CURSE than a CREED

I come to this sub-forum cuz its the only place to fellowship with you, Ironhold, WWA and Peter1000

I would say that Trinity is One through Unity

 

[Jane_Doe]

If Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity, as you say, and don't teach that the three Divine persons are con-substantial, then Mormon Trinitarian theology is false.

LDS don't believe in the Trinity as it is outlined in the Creeds, as LDS do not endorse the Creeds. That's never been hidden.

Should it not therefor be rejected, along with the very authority of any and all prophets, teachers who promote this absurd and harmful distortion of the Truth?

I'm not here to convince anyone of the Truthfulness of anything.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Well, Jane, to be picky -- I prefer to be called a Trinitarian Christian rather than Athanasian Christian; and I haven't the foggiest what you mean by 'co-substantiation'

" For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Substance [Essence] of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Substance [Essence] of his Mother, born in the world. Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting..... One altogether; not by confusion of Substance [Essence]; but by unity of Person." -- The Athanasian Creed.

Athanasius the person was great -- the Athanasian Creed I do not deem to be written by him at all, and consider it more of a CURSE than a CREED

It is a horrible misnomer of a name, that's for sure. But alas, that's the name that got attached to it.

I come to this sub-forum cuz its the only place to fellowship with you, Ironhold, WWA and Peter1000

 

[Anto9us]

you quoted a GOOD section of Athanasian Creed, Jane.

The parts that start announcing ANATHEMAS make me cringe.

 

[truefiction1]

I would say that Trinity is One through Unity

The three persons of the Trinity are indeed One through unity, and They are consubstantial (all of the same Divine substance).

If each of Them consisted of distinct divine substances, then their wouldn't be One God: Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. There would be three distinctly different Gods, each with their own unique divine natures.

They are of One Divine essence. They are perfectly One in essence and in unity.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons teach that all men are without beginning or end, that everything was formed from existing elements, that everything was formed spiritually before it became physical.

Doctrine and Covenants 131
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;
8 We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter.

Mormonism:
The Lord created all things spiritually before He created them physically (Moses 3:5).

• The Lord made every plant before it was in the earth, Gen. 2:4–6 (Abr. 5:5).

• By the power of my Spirit created I all things—first spiritual, secondly temporal, D&C 29:31–32.
  
  
• That which is temporal is in the likeness of that which is spiritual, D&C 77:2.

• I made the world and men before they were in the flesh, Moses 6:51.
  Spirit Creation

“He took the clay from the hand of the angel, and made Adam according to Our image and likeness, and He left him lying for forty days and forty nights without putting breath into him. And He heaved sighs over him daily, saying, ‘If I put breath into this [man], he must suffer many pains.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him.’ And My Father said unto Me, ‘If I put breath into him, My beloved Son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to his primal state.’ And I said unto My Father, ‘Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command.’”15

1. 15. “Discourse on Abbatôn by Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria,” in Coptic Martyrdoms etc. in the Dialect of Upper Egypt, ed. and trans. E. A. Wallis Budge (1914), 482. Timothy, archbishop of Alexandria, died in A.D. 385. Brackets are included in Budge’s English translation.
2. 
   
3. " Although this text is not scripture, it reaffirms scriptures that teach of the deep and compassionate love if the Father for the Son, and of the Son for us -- attesting that Jesus volunteered willingly to be our Savior and Redeemer."
4. The Creation - ensign

(Sorry about all those unnecessary numbers!)

 

[Jane_Doe]

The three persons of the Trinity are indeed One through unity, and They are consubstantial (all of the same Divine substance).

If each of Them consisted of distinct divine substances, then their wouldn't be One God: Father, Word, and Holy Spirit. There would be three distinctly different Gods, each with their own unique divine natures.

They are of One Divine essence. They are perfectly One in essence and in unity.

I respectfully disagree, but thank you for sharing your beliefs.

 

[truefiction1]

I respectfully disagree, but thank you for sharing your beliefs.

I don't really see how it's possible to disagree. Either the three distinct persons -- Father, Word, and Spirit -- are of one Divine essence/substance, and together are the only God, or they are not of one essence, and there are three different gods, and can be many more such gods in existence. But for Israel their was only One God, and for the Church there is only One God, and God is called the One "Holy, consubstantial, Life creating Trinity".

 

[dzheremi]

Mormons invite Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Lutherans, Methodists, Presbyterians, and Non-denominational Christians to come to Christ.

I don't think I've ever been happier to be Oriental Orthodox...

As to the rest of this: poppycock. God the Father was never as we are; He was never a man. That idea completely perverts and distorts the incarnation. I'd like any Mormon to explain to me why the incarnation even happened in the first place, if God the Father had a physical body to begin with, as the Mormon religion also says.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I don't really see how it's possible to disagree. Either the three distinct persons -- Father, Word, and Spirit -- are of one Divine essence/substance, and together are the only God, or they are not of one essence, and there are three different gods, and can be many more such gods in existence. But for Israel their was only One God, and for the Church there is only One God, and God is called the One "Holy, consubstantial, Life creating Trinity".

For me, I read the Bible cover-to-cover, and do not find any reference to God's substance at all. Furthermore, reading John 17 and the Intercessory Prayer leads me away from that conclusion.

Of course, I respect that other people have different views.

 

[dzheremi]

I don't really see how it's possible to disagree. Either the three distinct persons -- Father, Word, and Spirit -- are of one Divine essence/substance, and together are the only God, or they are not of one essence, and there are three different gods, and can be many more such gods in existence. But for Israel their was only One God, and for the Church there is only One God, and God is called the One "Holy, consubstantial, Life creating Trinity".

Out of love, friend, I must tell you: I have spent I would imagine well over 100 hours over the past few years on this website attempting to explain to Mormons the very basics of the Holy Trinity such as we can even speak of such a blessed and amazing mystery (as in the Creed), and it was for naught, as in the end they will chalk it up to a difference of opinion, not perceiving how there can be no difference of opinion in this matter: only those who worship God and those who do not.

Just fair warning should you really wish to go down this path, as the person you are writing to now has heard it a million times from many other posters, and the response you got already was the best possible one (others revolve around Mormonism's absolute inability to understand 'substance' in any way but carnally, in accordance with their doctrine that God the Father has a fleshly body, and the mocking of ousia as a "magic substance" or something because they don't understand this terminology even after having it explained to them very patiently, since of course it is not theirs to begin with).

 

[truefiction1]

For me, I read the Bible cover-to-cover, and do not find any reference to God's substance at all. Furthermore, reading John 17 and the Intercessory Prayer leads me away from that conclusion.

Of course, I respect that other people have different views.

The Bible teaches One God (Mark 12:29), The Father with His Eternal Word and Spirit, and the "Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Out of love, friend, I must tell you: I have spent I would imagine well over 100 hours over the past few years on this website attempting to explain to Mormons the very basics of the Holy Trinity such as we can even speak of such a blessed and amazing mystery (as in the Creed), and it was for naught, as in the end they will chalk it up to a difference of opinion, not perceiving how there can be no difference of opinion in this matter: only those who worship God and those who do not.

Just fair warning should you really wish to go down this path, as the person you are writing to now has heard it a million times from many other posters, and the response you got already was the best possible one (others revolve around Mormonism's absolute inability to understand 'substance' in any way but carnally, in accordance with their doctrine that God the Father has a fleshly body, and the mocking of ousia as a "magic substance" or something because they don't understand this terminology even after having it explained to them very patiently, since of course it is not theirs to begin with).

It's not for the sake of the person I'm discoursing with, but for others.

People join and are swept up into these new religions because they don't know any better and find they are getting something from it they feel they really need, and they weren't able to get from their parent's or own churches. It has very little to do with Spiritually enlightened reasoning and a great deal to do with passionate affliction. There are, for example, still some who believe that David Koresh is the messiah and will return again in glory. He took the wives of his male followers to be his own wives, claiming that since he was the messiah, only his seed could produce pure children. Thus, he was an adulterer and without a doubt a false prophet as foretold by Christ. Still, many believed him to be God's prophet and anointed one, and some still do. They are spiritually ill, of course, and as with all of us, need the healing power of God's Holy Spirit (grace).

 

[Jane_Doe]

The Bible teaches One God (Mark 12:29), The Father with His Eternal Word and Spirit, and the "Word became flesh" (John 1:14).

Which LDS firmly believe.

It's not for the sake of the person I'm discoursing with, but for others.

People join and are swept up into these new religions because they don't know any better and find they are getting something from it they feel they really need, and they weren't able to get from their parent's or own churches. It has very little to do with Spiritually enlightened reasoning and a great deal to do with passionate affliction. There are, for example, still some who believe that David Koresh is the messiah and will return again in glory. He took the wives of his male followers to be his own wives, claiming that since he was the messiah, only his seed could produce pure children. Thus, he was an adulterer and without a doubt a false prophet as foretold by Christ. Still, many believed him to be God's prophet and anointed one, and some still do. They are spiritually ill, of course, and as with all of us, need the healing power of God's Holy Spirit (grace).

Seeking clarification of your post here, because I suspect I might be misunderstanding something:

Are you calling me "don't know any better" and my relationship with Christ "very little to do with Spiritually enlightened reasoning and a great deal to do with passionate affliction", and "spiritually ill"?

At first reading your post sounds like a huge attack on my intelligence and spirituality. But, I could be misunderstanding, and would like to clarify what exactly you meant here before I get upset.

 

[dzheremi]

It's not for the sake of the person I'm discoursing with, but for others.

Fair enough. I have come to the same conclusion. God be with you.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Those statements (the whole grand 2 of them) are also speculative in nature, not actually taught in LDS church, doesn't play any role in active theology, and an LDS person is 100% free to do whatever about them and be in good standing (agree, disagree, no care, not know, etc). There's also a BOATLOAD of very relevant background to even get to the LDS understanding (for those that do agree) of these 2 speculations.

Still, anti-Mormon sites and other places LOVE to quote these two statements and blatantly misrepresent LDS beliefs and hence lie to other Christians.

Here we go again...

Note the reference provided for those 2 "grand" speculations:

(All of the material quoted above is found in official LDS publication "Gospel Principles", Chapter 47: Exaltation,” (2011), 275–80)

So much for "blatantly misrepresent(ing) LDS beliefs". So you are actually not being truthful in your above statement, which would seem to violate your 13th Article of Faith. It is not the "anti-Mormon sites" that "lie to other Christians", it's some of the lds themselves.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Act 2
37 ¶ Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for there mission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Geeee did he plagiarize Peter?

Which means absolutely nothing in regards to my post. There is no order or "laying on of hands" required for a person to be filled with the Holy Spirit, as Acts 10 shows. Therefore, your AoF is incorrect.

 

[truefiction1]

Which LDS firmly believe.

Seeking clarification of your post here, because I suspect I might be misunderstanding something:

Are you calling me "don't know any better" and my relationship with Christ "very little to do with Spiritually enlightened reasoning and a great deal to do with passionate affliction", and "spiritually ill"?

At first reading your post sounds like a huge attack on my intelligence and spirituality. But, I could be misunderstanding, and would like to clarify what exactly you meant here before I get upset.

No, I was referring to those groups of believers who fall under the spell of false prophets, as in the case of the "branch Davidians" who devoted themselves to the teachings of their "prophet", David Koresh. The same would apply, however, to the false prophet Joseph Smith and his band of devotees, who not unlike David Koresh, was not of God and didn't teach the doctrines of God. These are just two examples of many, and its the same psychological mechanisms working in every case, in the leaders and in their followers.

To be clear, your personal motivations for becoming and/or remaining a member of the LDS are known to you, but you'll only become aware of knowing them if you listen to the "still small voice" of God (1 Kings 19:12). All of the loud and clear explanations booming in your mind will drown out what ought to be heard, until you're good and ready not to let them anymore. This truth applies to all of us.

I'm not going to claim to know your motives. What I do know, is that the Mormon religion is 188 years old, and Christ built His Church over 2000 years ago on the preaching of His Holy Apostles: not 188 years ago on the preaching of Joseph Smith.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No, I was referring to those groups of believers who fall under the spell of false prophets, as in the case of the "branch Davidians" who devoted themselves to the teachings of their "prophet", David Koresh. The same would apply, however, to the false prophet Joseph Smith and his band of devotees, who not unlike David Koresh, was not of God and didn't teach the doctrines of God. These are just two examples of many, and its the same psychological mechanisms working in every case, in the leaders and in their followers.

To be clear, your personal motivations for becoming and/or remaining a member of the LDS are known to you, but you'll only become aware of knowing them if you listen to the "still small voice" of God (1 Kings 19:12). All of the loud and clear explanations booming in your mind will drown out what ought to be heard, until you're good and ready not to let them anymore. This truth applies to all of us.

I'm not going to claim to know your motives. What I do know, is that the Mormon religion is 188 years old, and Christ built His Church over 2000 years ago on the preaching of His Holy Apostles: not 188 years ago on the preaching of Joseph Smith.

I respect your beliefs, though it may be different than mine. I respect your intelligence, reading of scripture, and ability to listen to the Spirit. I am however, deeply hurt by your post #34 and the broad sweeping judgements you said there. If you wish to know me, my motivations, or about my relationship with Christ, you need just ask.