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The case against Social Security.

Andrew77

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Same here. If you can find the right funds and ride them out, you will make money.

Even the worst funds will make money. There is literally no possible way to go bad with privatizing, unless you put your money into single stocks, and funnel it all into one company, and then manage to pick the one company that goes broke.

That would be impressively bad.
 
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Vylo

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Even the worst funds will make money. There is literally no possible way to go bad with privatizing, unless you put your money into single stocks, and funnel it all into one company, and then manage to pick the one company that goes broke.

That would be impressively bad.
My coworker did that multiple times. It was impressive.
 
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discipler7

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It is not un-biblical to standing against bad laws, anymore than standing against slavery was the upright and moral duty of the Christians in the past.
.
Was it biblical to sacrifice millions of Christian lives in the 1861 American Civil War just to abolish Black slavery in US Law.? Other Western nations did not have to do so to abolish slavery from their national Law.
....... Modern-day "slavery" still exists today, eg workers slaving in minimum-wage jobs, college student graduates slaving to repay huge student loans, workers slaving to repay huge 30-year home mortgages, etc.
 
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discipler7

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I've been working since I was 18. I've made about $20K a year, every single year since then.
Something is not quite right.
.
In comparison, an electrical maintenance technician out of trade school earns a minimum annual pay of US$38,000. ... Electrical Maintenance Technician Salary

Anyway, the Word of God or Bible tells us to be always content with whatever financial situation we are in, and we should live within our means. ...
PHILIPPIANS.4: =
10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again; though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.
 
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Vylo

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I was with you until that last part of locking into the standard SS at a certain age.

What do you mean by that? For what purpose?

If I spent so much time and effort saving up, why would I then turn over my money to the government, when the whole reason for privatizing is because they are incompetent?
To preserve the amount. private funds fluctuate and you could lose a significant amount of savings, which could devastate an account in late age.

The point of privatizing isn't that the government is incompetent, it is that, SS is a secure low return fund, which is useless to anyone but those near or in retirement. Younger people can take the fluctuations since they won't collect in the short run.
 
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Vylo

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Oh good grief. I'm 40 years old, and last year I got over $20,000 a year for the first time in my entire life. I made.... $25,000 for the year. This year isn't looking good.

Ironically, I have thousands in an Roth IRA. When the market crashed, I started dumping money into it. Smart move on my part.

I also have a 401K, but I have no idea how much is in there, because I don't pay attention to it. I'm sure I'll find out when I am fired or quit this job.

I think real reason you won't tell me how much money you've made yearly on average, is because you don't want to know how many millions you would have right now, if your Social Security sink hole money was put into something worth while.

I've been working since I was 18. I've made about $20K a year, every single year since then.

That means I have been paying $200 a month into social security, since age 18. I'm now 40.

I would have $250,000 in retirement right now, if I could actually have my own money.

Instead, at this rate, my retirement will be $800 a month from Socialist Insecurity.

Thankfully I'm not stupid enough to think that's a good deal, and I'm taking steps to save as much as I can. Too bad others think it's a "good deal" to lock me into poverty..... Thanks a ton.
If you haven't made over 20k before in your life, you have made some insanely bad career choices are been a terrible worker. Most entry level retail jobs in my area can make more. I haven't made less than 70k a year in a job that doesn't even require a degree.

You need to find a trade of some kind to capitalize on.
 
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discipler7

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So what you are saying is a person can pick and choose which laws to follow. Check. So much for submitting to a corrupt govt.
In general, yes.
....... It's called freedom of choice, ie a person can choose whether he/she wants to follow the Law or not and bear the consequences, eg Adam & Eve. Adam sinned and he and all his descendants became bound for hell when they die(ROMANS.5:12) = needed to be saved from hell = the 1st Coming of Jesus the Christ/Messiah/Saviour to earth.

US Law gives US citizens the right to bear arms and maybe overthrow their very-corrupted government.
....... In comparison, People Power in Manila did not need any such Law to overthrow the corrupt Marcos military govt. The communist Berlin Wall fell by itself through economic pressure. So, it is always better not to force things unless the US government has become like the communist(= pure socialist) govt or Marcos military govt or British colonial govt.

A US worker who dies before reaching retirement age(= 67) will lose all his/her Social Security FICA tax contributions = this benefits the US government. Usually, those workers who choose not to obey US Law and/or God's Law will die before 67 yo, eg those convicted of murder, committed suicide, drug addicts, gays with AIDS, lazy gluttons with heart disease or Type 2 diabetes, etc.
 
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Andrew77

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Was it biblical to sacrifice millions of Christian lives in the 1861 American Civil War just to abolish Black slavery in US Law.? Other Western nations did not have to do so to abolish slavery from their national Law.
....... Modern-day "slavery" still exists today, eg workers slaving in minimum-wage jobs, college student graduates slaving to repay huge student loans, workers slaving to repay huge 30-year home mortgages, etc.

The civil war didn't abolish slavery.

No, no one is a slave.

If you borrow money... that's not because you are a legal slave to someone. That's because your stupid, and make bad choices.

Don't borrow money. My parents worked their way through school. When I went to school, I worked my way through too.

If you can be slave to your own stupidity, that's not societies fault, or your employers fault, or anyone's fault. Stop being dumb. Then you won't be a slave to your own stupidity.

Same with a huge 30-year mortgage. Stop being stupid. You don't need a house that big. Buy a house you can afford.

When I bought my condo, I found a super cheap deal. I didn't jump on the most wonderful house on the planet. I bought a house that a crazy person owned, that painted it all neon ugly colors. Then I spent two weeks of vacation time, painting it, and finishing the basement. Condo is worth $100,000. I bought it for under $60,000. I have it paid off now.

Don't be stupid.

You know what would help not being enslaved to debts? Not having 12.4% of your income sucked away into a social security black hole.

And no, people are not enslaved to low wage jobs. You can easily earn more. It's a choice. Anyone can earn more than minimum wage. If you are earning minimum wage, there is only one person to blame for that. You. Anyone that earns minimum wage for longer than 3 months, needs beaten with a stick. But certainly not given tax money. Anyone can move up the income ladder, if they want to.
 
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Andrew77

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Something is not quite right.
.
In comparison, an electrical maintenance technician out of trade school earns a minimum annual pay of US$38,000. ... Electrical Maintenance Technician Salary

Anyway, the Word of God or Bible tells us to be always content with whatever financial situation we are in, and we should live within our means. ...
PHILIPPIANS.4: =
10 But I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at last your care for me has flourished again; though you surely did care, but you lacked opportunity. 11 Not that I speak in regard to need, for I have learned in whatever state I am, to be content: 12 I know how to be abased, and I know how to abound. Everywhere and in all things I have learned both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need. 13 I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me.

Ok.... What I am missing here is.... the point? I'm not an electrical maintenance tech. I'd be earning a heck of lot more, yeah I agree.

Further, I am content. I never once suggest I was complaining about my wage. I'm paid, likely, more than I am worth at this point.

What I am not happy about, is being forced to pay into a horrific wasteful irresponsible system that will doom me to poverty if I retire, when I could be on my way to retiring a millionaire.
 
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Andrew77

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To preserve the amount. private funds fluctuate and you could lose a significant amount of savings, which could devastate an account in late age.

The point of privatizing isn't that the government is incompetent, it is that, SS is a secure low return fund, which is useless to anyone but those near or in retirement. Younger people can take the fluctuations since they won't collect in the short run.

I would suggest that's bad.

First off, if you have your money in a private retirement fund that you personally own, and it has your name on it.... that gives legal rights. You can't lose your investment. Not possible. Those shares you buy, you now own. They are yours.

If you sell off those investments, and give that money to Social Security, you lose all your rights. That money is given to the Federal Government, and spent. it's gone.

And if the government has a fiscal crisis and decides to not pay, then you just lost all your money. You can say that isn't likely, but the fact is, you can lose your money.

All the way back to post 1 of this thread. The supreme court of this country, said that you as a citizen have zero legal right to social security. If my mutual fund does not sell those assets and give me money I am legally entitle to, I'll take them to court. If the government denies me, I'm done. That's it. I have no legal standing.

Additional, if I have $2 Million dollars I've saved up and invested, and I die.... that money isn't lost. I can give it to my relatives or my grand kids, or my spouse. I could even donate it to a charity, or even a close loved friend. People I really care about.

But if I give that money to social security, and I die... it's gone. I lose it. Everything I spent my life saving, is taken from me, and spent on government kick backs to political supporters.

That's horrible!

So if someone.... for whatever ungodly reason.... actually wants to sell their investments and keep their money in social security, then by all means let them have that choice.

But no, I absolutely do not want to be locked in, that at a certain age, my investments revert to government. No. No no no. Absolutely not. Defeats the whole point of pushing this.

By the way....

You shouldn't do that anyway. If you have it locked in, then what happens if the market crashes right before that lock happens? What if my lock date was March of 2009, when the market bottomed out? I'd lose half my retirement, when if I only kept my stocks, I would recover nearly all of it in 2 years.

I was actually buying stock all during 2008. I was losing money every single day for moneys. I'd put money in, and find the value was lower than before I put the money in. But you have to remember, I'm buying stock. The number of stocks I owned, was more and more each day, even while the values were dropping. By the time I got done, I had a 25% return on my investment.

If I had been forced to pull out because of this lock into SS, I would have lost money. Bad idea.

Plus, even with the fluctuations, you are still getting dividend payments. If you take your money out and put it into SS, you lose dividend payments. No good reason for this at all.
 
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Andrew77

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If you haven't made over 20k before in your life, you have made some insanely bad career choices are been a terrible worker. Most entry level retail jobs in my area can make more. I haven't made less than 70k a year in a job that doesn't even require a degree.

You need to find a trade of some kind to capitalize on.

I would agree with everything you said. It's more of me being a terrible worker, than bad career choice.

I went to college for 3 years to learn to be a computer programmer. I failed out. I went back to college to learn how to work on cars, and failed. I went back to do engineering, and failed.

Failed out of college 3 times. Keep in mind, that's failed out, not dropped out. Drop outs end up tech company CEOs. Fail outs, just fail. And I worked my butt off too. I can remember staying at the college until 2 AM for days, even weeks, and still failing out.

Simply not smart enough I guess.

I tired a number of different fields. Hated retail completely. Hated dealing with customers.

Got a job at a Cadillac dealership, and broke every car I touched. End up washing cars, instead of fixing them.

Tried to work phone-tech support, but I couldn't understand over the phone, what people were doing. If I can see the computer, I can generally fix it. But over the phone sucked.

Tried to drive a truck. Went 18-wheeler up to Maine, over to Oregon, down to California, and back to Ohio. I couldn't sleep in the truck. After 3 days of not being able to sleep, I fell asleep at the wheel of a truck doing 65 on the highway, figured I needed to get off the road before I killed someone.

Did a dozen other jobs, and about a dozen more I don't even remember anymore. Wendy's, delivery driver, low-end sales, cell phone repair, warehouse worker, and on and on.

Eventually I realized life is hopeless for me, and just accepted where I am. Right now I work for a computer company. I pull a computer out of the box. Turn it on. Hit F12. Wait until it finishes. Put it back in the box. The company is trash, but I have a good manager, and I'm double minimum wage. Can expect more given the lack of skills and education.

It this point, I have no future plans or dreams. Just trying to get to the end of this race now. And my pass time is... well... this. I talk to people about political garbage. I know I likely will never convince anyone of anything, but at least it passes the time.
 
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discipler7

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The civil war didn't abolish slavery.
The Civil War, also known as “The War Between the States,” was fought between the United States of America and the Confederate States of America, a collection of eleven southern states that left the Union in 1860 and 1861 and formed their own country in order to protect the institution of slavery. Jefferson Davis, ... . The United States thought that the southern states were wrong to leave the Union and initiated a war that raged across the country for four years. In 1865, the United States defeated the Confederate States and abolished slavery nation-wide.
10 Facts: What Everyone Should Know About the Civil War | Civil War Trust
.
American Civil War - Wikipedia
 
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discipler7

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What I am not happy about, is being forced to pay into a horrific wasteful irresponsible system that will doom me to poverty if I retire, when I could be on my way to retiring a millionaire.
.
Presently, at an annual salary of US$20,000, you and your employer are paying a FICA tax of about US$200 monthly. When you retire at 67, you will be getting about US$800 monthly in SS benefits. I think that's quite fair and not horrible.

If you don't mind me saying, ... if you were instead earning US$40,000 annually today, you would have retired with about US$1600 monthly in SS benefits. So, it is you yourself who have "doomed" yourself to "poverty" when you retire, not the US government.
....... But it seems, at 40 yo, you are already all set for a comfortable retirement, ie you have already paid off your house mortgage, have a nice nest-egg in private investments, should have some cash savings, etc.

Of course, getting married and having kids or getting scammed by others through greed or being hospitalized for a serious condition(= becoming disabled) will likely put paid to your plans for a comfortable retirement.
....... To prevent such misfortune, a Christian should keep God's Law, either partially or fully, as per ACTS.15:24-29 = a Gentile Christian only needs to keep non-burdensome laws of Moses, especially morality laws, eg the Ten Commandments(EXODUS.20). He/she is exempted from the law of circumcision, kosher food laws, etc.

It is not guaranteed that everyone earning US$20,000 annually will end up retiring as millionaires through self-conducted private investments, instead of through Social Security. Some workers won't save and invest. Some invest but may end up with nothing upon retirement, eg their Mutual Fund investment company goes bankrupt - Bernie Madoff. The SSTF prevents this from happening. Christians are told to be considerate of their weaker or less smart brethren = smart Christian workers should tolerate SS for the sake of not-so-smart workers.
....... Since 1935, the SS has not defaulted on paying out monthly benefits to retirees, and will likely not.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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No, you contribute all of that. Your employers reduces your pay, to offset the cost of employing you.

All large employers do this, and generally all employers do this.

Look up "Total Cost of Employment". There are dozens of articles, and even employee cost calculators businesses use to determine how much they can pay employees. This is normal throughout the entire economy.

It's no different than if you are trying to figure out how much car or house you can buy, and considering what the taxes will be on the purchase. Same thing.

If they have to pay $3,000 into social security on your behalf, then you are paid $3,000 less a year.

Do not live in this mythology that you only pay half, and the company pays half.

Companies don't have money trees. Every single dollar the company pays out in any kind of tax, benefit, mandate, or regulation, has to come from one of two locations... the customers (us) in the form of higher prices, or the employees in the form of lower wages.

Typically the most popular way is through simply not giving out pay hikes for years on end. It's no surprise that after the tax hike of 1989, that we went almost a decade with stagnant wages. The companies were all paying more for you to be employed in taxes, so you didn't get those pay hikes.

You pay for all those taxes, all the time. Every dollar paid to employer side tax, is a dollar less in your pay check.

The reason people aren't financially ready for retirement is that they don't plan and save for it. Taxes are just the "ante" everyone must pay to sit in on the game. It's actually a pretty good deal.

You can keep saying that, but it's funny how the more people bought into social security, the fewer saved for retirement. It's funny how that just magically happened that way.

It's no surprise to me that between 1930s to 1970s, the pay out for Social Security was exceptionally low, and the personal savings rates in the US, were actually increasing.

Then the personal savings rates starting dropping in the 1970s. You know what else happened in the 1970s? The benefits for social security went up.

Coincidence? Maybe... doubt it... Seems a little too suspicious that the moment Social Security benefits increased enough that people thought the government would take care of them, that magically and mysteriously fewer and fewer people started saving for their own retirement.

And as far as saying it's a pretty good deal.... no it's not.
You can say that a million times, but the fact is, it isn't a good deal by any possible measure. Name one measure.... just one measure, that it's a good deal?

People are not even getting out of Social Security, how much they pay in. How is that a good deal? You pay me $600,000 over the course of your entire life, and I'll give you back $550,000? If I'm your investment professional, you'd fire me. You'd be better off putting your money in a plain bank savings account. But you think Social Security is better (sarcasm).

Oh, and that's if you live along enough. If you die, you lose it. That's a good deal? Compared to what? I put my money in a bank, and if I die, it goes to my relatives or a charity of my choosing, or whatever I put in my will to be done with it. You die, you lose it. That's better... yeah...

If I buy $600,000 in stock, I'll be a multimillionaire when I retire. If you "buy" $600,000 in social security, you'll end up with $1,300 a month until you die. That's a good deal? Compared to what?

Even if you buy US bonds outside of Social Security, you'll double your money, and if you die, all of it will go to your spouse or grand kids, or whatever.

But Social Security is good deal compared to that? Don't lie. Your lies are not believable. And it is a lie. There is absolutely no possible way, not one single measure you can cite, that this is a 'good deal'.'

No, it not a "pretty good deal" compared to ANYTHING.

I'm glad you mentioned 1970. That's when our trade deficits, and our financial problems, began. Of course people stopped saving then, the money was leaving the country. Then the oil prices went through the roof and the biggest transfer of wealth in history took place, from us to the middle east. SS had nothing to do with it.

The basis of SS is that many wouldn't live to collect, just like any insurance plan. With extended longevity more is being paid out than was anticipated. Lot's of moving part to SS.

All wages and benefits are paid out of company profits, paid for by their customers, either directly or indirectly. As you rightly pointed out most companies have a wage 'formula' that they must adhere to, so it makes little difference if I pay 1/2 or all of my SS contribution; my total compensation package will be the same.

Also just because many don't live to collect very much in SS doesn't mean everyone gets screwed. I and many others have made out very well. I used to chafe at anything taken from my paycheck as I needed it at the time. But now that I'm older I see the necessity of it.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Oh good grief. I'm 40 years old, and last year I got over $20,000 a year for the first time in my entire life. I made.... $25,000 for the year. This year isn't looking good.

Ironically, I have thousands in an Roth IRA. When the market crashed, I started dumping money into it. Smart move on my part.

I also have a 401K, but I have no idea how much is in there, because I don't pay attention to it. I'm sure I'll find out when I am fired or quit this job.

I think real reason you won't tell me how much money you've made yearly on average, is because you don't want to know how many millions you would have right now, if your Social Security sink hole money was put into something worth while.

I've been working since I was 18. I've made about $20K a year, every single year since then.

That means I have been paying $200 a month into social security, since age 18. I'm now 40.

I would have $250,000 in retirement right now, if I could actually have my own money.

Instead, at this rate, my retirement will be $800 a month from Socialist Insecurity.

Thankfully I'm not stupid enough to think that's a good deal, and I'm taking steps to save as much as I can. Too bad others think it's a "good deal" to lock me into poverty..... Thanks a ton.

With your income it's hard to save much. That's why SS is a good deal for you. You'll appreciate it when you retire. I'm glad that you have a 401K and Roth IRA. You should be ok.
 
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Presently, at an annual salary of US$20,000, you and your employer are paying a FICA tax of about US$200 monthly. When you retire at 67, you will be getting about US$800 monthly in SS benefits. I think that's quite fair and not horrible.

Plus he has 27 more working years to increase the figure the SS uses to calculated his benefit. They use the 35 highest years of income to figure the benefit. Staying healthy and living long is a sure way to prosper from SS.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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That's not a big if. Finding good investments isn't difficult. I've doubled my money in a matter of a few years. All that it required was to check their history, setup a monthly draft from my account, and then let it go. Not a big if.

You should be a financial advisor then. You'll certainly make more than $20,000 per year.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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And as far as saying it's a pretty good deal.... no it's not. You can say that a million times, but the fact is, it isn't a good deal by any possible measure. Name one measure.... just one measure, that it's a good deal?

No, it not a "pretty good deal" compared to ANYTHING.

It might be a very good deal for you if you remain a low wage earner.

"Social Security favors very low wage earners by "front loading" the benefits formula to provide a higher level of benefits on the lowest amount of wages."

Are your Social Security taxes a good investment?
 
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