Christian Bakers and Gay Wedding Cakes

[pat34lee]

Again, we are talking about a baker, not an artist. This man prepares food products. He does not paint paintings.

The two are far from mutually exclusive. And the
right to free speech is not limited to words. That
has been proven time and again in the SC.

This is art.

 

[pat34lee]

So very wrong. Even though God has declared children to be a blessing from Him, there is nothing in the Bible that states every married couple must have children. If you can find Scripture that says otherwise please provide it.

Having children is a second issue, as I said.

Not being able to have them is a dysfunction,
whether you think you want them or not.

A blind person may say they don't care about
seeing, but they have no idea what they lack.

 

[pat34lee]

Orientation isn't a sexual behavior. You say that you are more than what you do in the bedroom but you are happy to reduce homosexuals to just that.

Actually, those who make sexual preference a protected
status are the ones reducing them to a group based only
on who they choose as sex partners to define them.

 

[pat34lee]

No, it is to celebrate the union of two human beings, people who we are to love.

Nope. We are not to support sinful behavior, no
matter who the people are that are involved.

 

[Foxfyre]

First, I didn't say this baker only made wedding cakes. I said a baker; I was speaking generically. The Muslim baker I referenced earlier couldn't be forced to bake a same sex wedding cake because he baked bread not cakes.

Second, you don't seem to understand the concept of a protected class. A black baker wouldn't have to bake a cake for the KKK because the KKK isn't part of a protected class.

Third, there are, sadly, still churches that prohibit marriage between whites and blacks on religious grounds. Should a white baker be allowed to refuse to bake a cake for an interracial couple because it violates his beliefs. What if he refused to bake a cake for a Christian bride who was marrying a Muslim man?

What if he did? I wouldn't agree with him about it, but we either have liberty of thought and belief and the right to be who we are and practice our convictions so long as we are not infringing on anybody else's right to the same or we do not. It is WRONG to have protected classes for some people and not everybody in that regard. It isn't a matter of what constitutes the law in that regard. It is a matter of liberty and right and wrong. The law interpreted that somebody has to participate in an event that violates his religious views, his principles, his convictions is a very, very bad law.

A gay person should always be able to be who he or she is in peace, without harassment, and without expectation that he must agree with and/or accommodate an event with which he has a moral, philosophical, or ethical problem with. And so should the gay or heterosexual Christian. It is as simple as that.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

No.

But that isn't what is happening in this case. If this couple had requested doughnuts the baker could refuse because he doesn't make doughnuts. You can't force someone to supply something that they don't deal in. However, this baker bakes wedding cakes. Since that is his line of work, he cannot discriminate against a same sex couple in violation of the law.

The Kosher foods comparison is a good example. The baker only bakes wedding cakes, not same sex wedding cakes. There is a difference especially since the baker has the freedom to be in a religion that doesn't recognize it as a wedding. If the baker loses this case then churches will be forced to perform same sex marriages or the government will shut them down.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

Here's another thing I don't understand. There are a ton of places in the Bible where it says homosexuality is wrong. Do the "clergy" who perform these ceremonies pretend they aren't there?

 

[Lily of Valleys]

Here's another thing I don't understand. There are a ton of places in the Bible where it says homosexuality is wrong. Do the "clergy" who perform these ceremonies pretend they aren't there?

I think they just interpret those Bible verses in a way to make them mean what they want them to mean, in order to justify to themselves that homosexuality is not a sin.

 

[SolomonVII]

P

So now, my girlfriend and I are "gravely disordered toward moral evil" because she cannot have children. Care to expalin that one?
..

I have told you several times that I am not discussing your intimate relationships.
I have no choice no but to put you on ignore, since you cannot even respect that common sense rule that we are here to discuss the issues and not each other.
I will not be goaded into commenting on your personal affairs.
Good bye.

 

[Lily of Valleys]

He draws designs on them. He does not paint them. A painted cake would not be edible.

Did you watch that video in my post at all? It is obvious from the video that he was painting on cakes with a paintbrush using an art palette with different colors of paint on it. If the cake is edible, I would imagine those paint must be edible food paint like those below:

Edible Food Paint

 

[Eloy Craft]

Orientation isn't a sexual behavior. You say that you are more than what you do in the bedroom but you are happy to reduce homosexuals to just that.

They reduced their own identity to a sexual attraction. I didn't I'm just saying it's unhealthy.

 

[Eloy Craft]

All i did was copy your post's last sentence but changed the minority.

So, it was no real comparison as you hoped.

 

[SolomonVII]

Spoken like a true Sanger follower.
So normal people ,who have heterosexual marriage, are bad because they have kids who are disabled.
We will never agree not now not ever.
Only Christ can cause a hardened heart to see the truth.

From what I have read, Scanadinavian countries have now genetically 'cleansed' themselves of Down's Syndrome people. They probably see this a triumph of eugenic science.
I am not saying that there are not great trials and sacrifices involved in raising kids with Down's Syndrome, but it would surprise me very much if the vast, vast preponderance of parents of such people would not recognizing such 'cleansing' of these people from their lives would not be experienced as a loss greater than they could bear.
Down's Syndrome and unconditional love are synonyms from the little I know about both.

 

[Archivist]

The two are far from mutually exclusive. And the
right to free speech is not limited to words. That has been proven time and again in the SC.

This is art.

Have you read the oral arguments in the case? Here is a synopsis of a portion of the arguments:

"Justice Elena Kagan led the charge, asking Waggoner whether a hairstylist or a make-up artist could cite his religious beliefs as the basis to refuse to provide services for a same-sex wedding. When Waggoner responded that they could not, Kagan pushed back. The make-up artist is an artist, she stressed, and could feel the same way about his craft as Phillips does. Waggoner countered that doing someone’s make-up is not speech, prompting Kagan to retort that “some people might say that about cakes.” And Kagan expressed disbelief that a baker’s craft is expression but a chef’s, according to Waggoner, is not.

Alito joined the fray with what seemed to be a softball question for Waggoner, asking her whether architectural designs would be protected even though people live in the buildings for which they serve as the basis. Waggoner said that they would not be, which seemed to surprise Breyer. So a masterpiece by Michelangelo would not be protected, but a cake without any message on it would be, he asked? “That really does baffle me,” Breyer said."

Would you care to explain how the work of a make-up artist is not art but the work of a baker is art? That is part of what the defense in this case is claiming.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

To you folks who are against the baker.....do you think the government should force all churches to perform same sex marriages?

 

[Archivist]

To you folks who are against the baker.....do you think the government should force all churches to perform same sex marriages?

First, no one in this thread is "against" this baker. I'm not "against" a person who drives 75 is a 65 zone on the highway, I just want him/her to follow the law. Same thing with the baker, I just want him to obey the law.

Second, the government forcing churches to perform same-sex marriage isn't an issue. Churches and ministers have significant protection under the First Amendment and other provisions of law from being forced to perform same-sex marriages. In the Obergefell case where the Court held that states must issue licenses for same-sex marriages and recognize such licenses issued by other states, there was no holding that a minister or a church can be compelled by a court to solemnize, host, or perform a same-sex marriage ceremony. Obergefell was only binding on state action.

If you want to read Obergefell it is available at 576 US ___, 135 SCt 2584 (2015).

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

But don't you think that if courts continue to go against Biblical values and the SC decides against the baker that will make the trend stronger and eventually the government will force churches to perform same sex marriages? After all, churches provide a service just like the baker. I think what will happen first is that the government will take the tax exempt status away from those churches who don't comply. The ones who survive that financial burden will be the next target.

 

[Archivist]

But don't you think that if courts continue to go against Biblical values and the SC decides against the baker that will make the trend stronger and eventually the government will force churches to perform same sex marriages? After all, churches provide a service just like the baker. I think what will happen first is that the government will take the tax exempt status away from those churches who don't comply. The ones who survive that financial burden will be the next target.

There is no indication that what you are proposing will ever happen. Churches are not required to marry anyone. For example, a church can refuse to marry anyone who is not a member of that church--that has always been the case.

If you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

 

[Galaxy Hunter]

There is no indication that what you are proposing will ever happen.

If you have evidence to the contrary I would love to see it.

I will have evidence if the baker loses. I'm not sure how you would NOT describe that as an "indication". Unless something stops a political correct trend it will play out until the end. I see nothing stopping this trend, do you?

 

[Archivist]

I will have evidence if the baker loses. I'm not sure how you would NOT describe that as an "indication". Unless something stops a political correct trend it will play out until the end. I see nothing stopping this trend, do you?

I don't see such a trend here.