proving evolution as just a "theory"

Status
Not open for further replies.

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
Maybe this will help?

Adaptive Evolution of 5′HoxD Genes in the Origin and Diversification of the Cetacean Flipper

limb modification in the mammals has involved the molecular evolution of the Hoxgenes Hoxd12 and Hoxd13, represent an important addition to this growing body of work and highlights the potential role that Hox genes are likely to have had in more recent evolutionary radiations.

The role of Hoxd12 in the modulation of digit number and development of the flipper was also suggested by the results of branch-site models, in which several sites under positive selection were detected on the branch leading to the cetaceans

This is the usual evo talking points offered as evidence.

All you have posted just says it happens. As soon as you use "suggest," "likely to happen" the statement as evidence goes down the drain. What the evolutionist can't seem to get their mind around is the FACT what they are
suggesting" not only has never been observed, it is genetically impossible. Parent must have the gene for fins or they will NEVER have a kid with fins. The Hoxgenes can only produce the specific characteristic it is designed for.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
Why? I don't know how "it's genetically possible", I can only suggest enrolling yourself at a university on an appropriate course.

Let me suggest you take you own advice and this time try to evaluate what they say is true.

The blow holes of cetaceans are homologous to nostrils. Why on earth would you think they aren't? Don't you accept that whales are mammals or something?[/QUOTE]


Being homologous only indicates they serve the same purpose---the ability to breath air. There is no way the nose of a land animal can become a blowhole; there is no way legs can become fins; there is no way a tail can become a flapper.

It is absurd to think a land animal surviving very well on land would need to enter a more hostile environment and become something different. That is natural selection in reverse. Whale evolution is necessary or evolution is exposed for the scientific fraud it is. So evolutionists realizing this invent a way it happened and that with not one shred of scientific evidence.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
"But officer, I see your picture of my client pointing a gun at the teller but that is not evidence. It is truly sad that some think pictures are evidence."

Get on board. We are discussing scientific evidence, not what can be observed. Something evolution preaches but has never observed.

Where did you learn about what is acceptable evidence? Trump University?

Those lacking the intellect to discuss a subject finally resort to insults making stupid remarks. Thanks for exposing you intellectual level and your lack of common civility.

Such stupid remarks also show you can't prove what you believe. Low intellectual levels accept what they are told because the lack the ability to evaluate it.

Keep up the good work. I enjoy your insults because they speak more of you than of me.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
You don't know what the term "populations unable to interbreed" means do you?

Neither do you understand what ring species are.

Do you not ever think that criticising a scientific theory without understanding what it proposes just makes you look very foolish?

When you understand that salamanders remaining salamanders is not evidence of evolution, get back to me.

Unproved theories need to be criticised if they are offered as evidence.
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
Adaptive Evolution of 5′HoxD Genes in the Origin and Diversification of the Cetacean Flipper

limb modification in the mammals has involved the molecular evolution of the Hoxgenes Hoxd12 and Hoxd13, represent an important addition to this growing body of work and highlights the potential role that Hox genes are likely to have had in more recent evolutionary radiations.

The role of Hoxd12 in the modulation of digit number and development of the flipper was also suggested by the results of branch-site models, in which several sites under positive selection were detected on the branch leading to the cetaceans

...................

Why did you completely ignore this, please read the link if you are actually interested in learning anything.

I quit reading evo links. They NEVER provided any real scientific evidence.

Cut and past the evidence your link offered and prove me wrong.
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,999.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Those lacking the intellect to discuss a subject finally resort to insults making stupid remarks. Thanks for exposing you intellectual level and your lack of common civility.

So what of the role of Hox genes in the evolution of cetaceans? Do they play a part, as that paper says, or if not why not?
 
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed

It seems I will need more than luck to get you to cut and paste and evidence.
Maye you have tried and it finally dawned on you they don't really offer any. Have you finally recognized suggesting it happened is not evidence?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

OzSpen

Regular Member
Oct 15, 2005
11,541
707
Brisbane, Qld., Australia
Visit site
✟132,843.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Private
Sorry, but this is just wrong. The basic reality of evolution has been the consensus view among scientists for well over a century, and its validity and importance have only been cemented by all of the discoveries in between. There is lots of debate in the scientific literature about the details and mechanisms of evolution, but none at all about its reality.

Are you talking about macro-evolution or micro-evolution?
 
  • Prayers
Reactions: 2tim_215
Upvote 0

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
So what of the role of Hox genes in the evolution of cetaceans? Do they play a part, as that paper says, or if not why not?

Don't tell me what he paper says. Tell me what it provides as evidence for what they say.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

omega2xx

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oct 20, 2017
890
103
91
Knoxville Tn.
✟70,085.00
Country
United States
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Widowed
So what's the difference, spare me your pathetic obfuscations. You claim they aren't the same, so what's the difference.

I grow weary of your obfuscation. It is time for you to produce some proven scientific evidence to support your faith in Darwin's fundies or move on.
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟22,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
And lo an behold, one of the best examples was for our own evolution Species | The Smithsonian Institution's Human Origins Program
We have so many fossils that show the evolutionary steps for humans that some are difficult to even categorize, since they have traits intermediate between species that are closely related.

Hmm... that's odd Sarah because I recall you and I already having this discussion to which I replied with this post. I don't recall you ever addressing it then and here you are now bringing up the issue again as though it was never discussed.


I see absolutely 0 reasons why a deity that is supposedly all knowing and all powerful would have to stoop to making a bunch of creatures with only slight physical differences between each other. Heck, the niche property of organisms that share environments makes it better to avoid doing that, least you create organisms that compete with each other until one or both go extinct.

Really? Okay here's a little test for you then. Design just ten earth bound modes of human transportation that do not use any similar features whatsoever. If one has an engine then the others cannot. If one pedals then the other's cannot. If one has wheels the other's cannot. If one uses sprockets, gears and or cogs the other's cannot. If one uses wings the other's cannot... you get the picture. Now imagine designing hundreds of thousands of modes of transportation. Could an all knowing God do it? Of course He could. Could Ford make a truck that doesn't look at all like any other truck on the road? Yes they could. But in the economy of design there are practicalities that come into play. A truck with legs that walks may require many systems that one with wheels would not. Would these systems drive up cost? Would they effect the road? Would they effect other things on the road? Would the system make the vehicle too heavy and expensive to operate? Etc. etc. Samsung could probably design an indestructible smart phone that it's signal could reach the moon too. But it would weigh too much to carry around and cost more than the average person is willing to spend. The fact of the matter is we don't know why God designed things like He did. But from a logical standpoint, not knowing why doesn't rule out that He did either.

Pakicetus, which is considered a common ancestor to whales and dolphins, is considered such because it has inner ear structures EXCLUSIVE to cetaceans, among other shared skull structures. If this trait is so beneficial for semi-aquatic and aquatic animals, why is it only seen in a select number of organisms that all have intermediate traits between terrestrial mammals and whales? What creator would do that?

Again your using a similarity argument which we cannot begin to know the answer to why a creator did something. We just know it cannot be ruled out. If He did He did.


-_- as if new benign genes via mutation have never been observed. Sir, that is not the case, try some bacteria studies. They start out with the descendants of just 1 individual, so all variation in future populations HAS to be from mutation.

And again I have pointed out many times why single celled organisms cannot be used to resolve this issue. It has been shown that their changes occurred as a "result" of the environment. Not because random mutations being selected by natural changes in environmental conditions (aka Darwinian evolution). In other words its as though they were "designed" with the ability to change to metabolize new food sources knowing they had no ability just to migrate somewhere else.

Every person born has 40-60 mutations not shared by either of their parents, they are easy to observe, your issue was doing all this research more than a decade ago.

So you are saying you do know of an example of an observed genetic mutation which added new and beneficial gene increasing type information to the genome that is known to not have existed anywhere in the human population prior? I'd love to see a link to this study please. This changes everything!
 
Upvote 0

Jimmy D

Well-Known Member
Dec 11, 2014
5,147
5,995
✟268,999.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
I grow weary of your obfuscation. It is time for you to produce some proven scientific evidence to support your faith in Darwin's fundies or move on.

Poor thing, can't you support your own claims? I don't think that the sciences sub forum is for you.

You said....

BTW they are both very different nostrils and one can't become the other. I know by simple observation. If you can't tell the difference maybe you need a trip the a good optometrist.

So come on, what's the difference?
 
Upvote 0

BradB

Newbie
Jan 14, 2013
491
124
✟22,216.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
But don't you realize that you're contradicting yourself? If one could arrive at YECism via observation of the evidence (your claim) then it should be possible to arrive at it independent of any specific theological belief.

But if one can't arrive at it save for a pre-existing theological belief based on a specific interpretation of the Bible, then it's clearly not something based on observable evidence. It's simply a theology based on a specific Biblical interpretation.

No friend your confusing two ideas. One can arrive at belief in an infinite, intelligent source of the universe and life apart from the Bible. YEC on the other hand is something that the Bible specifically claims to be true about the universe and life. Those of us who espouse YEC are saying that we believe that there is nothing observable through scientific observation which contradicts the Bible, but rather it harmonizes with it if one examines it honestly. A child sitting on the beach and watching the ocean gradually move grains of sand can't tell if all that sand got dumped there in one big storm or over millions of years of gradual ocean churning. Likewise we can't tell how old something is or is not based on what we observe right now. But we have nothing that proves it did not happen the way the Bible claims, and some things which suggests it did.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

AnotherAtheist

Gimmie dat ol' time physical evidence
Site Supporter
Aug 16, 2007
1,225
601
East Midlands
✟123,826.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Being homologous only indicates they serve the same purpose---the ability to breath air. There is no way the nose of a land animal can become a blowhole; there is no way legs can become fins; there is no way a tail can become a flapper.

It is absurd to think a land animal surviving very well on land would need to enter a more hostile environment and become something different. That is natural selection in reverse. Whale evolution is necessary or evolution is exposed for the scientific fraud it is. So evolutionists realizing this invent a way it happened and that with not one shred of scientific evidence.

Both of your questions can be answered by pointing out that there are existing animals which show a continuum of limb forms from hands to flippers. Rats can swim well, and have pretty much paws. Water Voles are more aquatic, but still have fairly normal paws. Otters are more aquatic, and have webbed paws for better swimming. Seals have things that are intermediate between paws and fins, but are closest to fins. Walruses have even more finny limbs (but notice how they are used on land), and a developing tail. Then there's the whales, dolphins, etc. with pretty much fully finny fins. You can't say that paws couldn't develop into fins when we can see a wide range of intermediate forms today. Or, you could say that, but you'd be rather silly.

Secondly you say that it is absurd for land animals to enter the water, because it is a more hostile environment. Well, that depends. For an animal that can catch fish, if there are plenty of fish to eat, but little to eat on land because of too much competition, then fish could be an important part of their diet. There are plenty of land animals that eat fish. E.g. bears. Being able to walk around easily is not much good if you starve to death. Venturing into the water and finding food to eat is much better, even if you can't swim well. Hence, the ancestors of whales may have eaten fish or other food from the water. And because of competition for land based food, there was selection pressure to become more aquatic. And they became more aquatic through intermediate forms similar to those we see today in different lineages.

As an example of a land animal not especially adapted for the water (though a strong swimmer and a tenacious pursuer of fish), consider the Fishing Cat Fishing Cat It has slight webbing between its toes. But, it's diet is primarily fish. Why wouldn't it hunt on land instead? Quite likely because there is competition from other animals, perhaps even other cats, on land. Meaning that the 'hostile' water is less hostile than land.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.