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proving evolution as just a "theory"

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doubtingmerle

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The distinction is beyond them. They show you what they believe led to the horse, then claim lookie see, fish became men.
Nobody said a Hyracotherium evolving into a horse proves a fish became a man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a Hyracotherium evolved into a horse?

We agree that IF it is a horse, then all horse are still the same species, as all dogs are the same species as wolves.
Its not a horse. It is a Hyracotherium.

They can’t comprehend that showing me a wolf that led to dogs and claiming it proves something became man and ape, is the same as showing me a horse that led to horses and making the same ridiculous claim of common ancestors splitting to become more than one thing.
Nobody said a wolf evolving into a dog proves ape became man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a Hyracotherium evolved into a horse?

Next they’ll be showing you a whale ancestor and claiming look, it became a whale, so it proves something else became man and ape.
Nobody said a land dweller evolving into a whale proves ape became man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a land dweller evolved into a whale?
 
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rjs330

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Nobody said a Hyracotherium evolving into a horse proves a fish became a man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a Hyracotherium evolved into a horse?


Its not a horse. It is a Hyracotherium.


Nobody said a wolf evolving into a dog proves ape became man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a Hyracotherium evolved into a horse?


Nobody said a land dweller evolving into a whale proves ape became man. We have other evidence for human evolution. Do you agree that a land dweller evolved into a whale?

Yes you are claiming that. You claim that the ancestor of the horse evolved into the modern horse and so therefore we all evolved from a common ancestor.

Like Truth said, there are so many ifs involved in the horse thing it's silly. There are so many assumptions it's ridiculous. This thing could very well be an ancient taper.
 
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pitabread

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rjs330

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(Accepting for purposes of argument your notion that "allegory" is a portmanteau word for "anything other than 100% accurate literal history" rather than a literary term with a specific meaning)

I couldn't do it just with scripture. I probably couldn't even keep a firm hold on my faith just with scripture.

Ok then where does allegorical Genesis start and where does historical Genesis start? How do you know?
 
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rjs330

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How were they mistaken? We don't know what they believed about your claim that the text of the Genesis stories was either 100% accurate literal history or "allegory."

I know because Paul said this.

Just as through one human being sin came into the world, and death came through sin, so death has come to everyone, since everyone has sinned.Although sin was in the world, since there was no Law, it wasn’t taken into account until the Law came.But death ruled from Adam until Moses, even over those who didn’t sin in the same way Adam did—Adam was a type of the one who was coming. - Romans 5:12-14 Bible Gateway passage: Romans 5:12-14 - Common English Bible

He said one human being. He also referenced the history between Adam and Moses. Now you are saying Paul references history between a fictional character and a historical character. Unless of course you believe Moses was fictional too.
 
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rjs330

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Very likely it's a relative of and/or possibly even ancestral to tapirs (although the split is generally considered to have occurred slightly earlier).

That's the thing about evolution though, it forms branching patterns of continual diversification.

Here's an article with a detailed phylogeny of various species: http://phenomena.nationalgeographic...ll-the-backstory-of-horses-tapirs-and-rhinos/
Wow more assumptions! There is no split observed unless you assume there is.
 
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Speedwell

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Ok then where does allegorical Genesis start and where does historical Genesis start? How do you know?
Since you believe that "allegory" is a portmanteau word for "anything other than 100% accurate literal history" rather than a literary term with a specific meaning,

I can safely say that none of it is 100% accurate literal history, not even those parts which are historical.
 
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TerryWoodenpic

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The people of the first century were correct since today remains the 6th Day, the last Day of the Creation. ALL Humans (descendants of Adam) live and die on the present 6th Day/Age, the Day of Salvation according to Jesus. 2Co 6:2 To the 152,000 people who enter will Eternity in the next 24 hours, today is the last Day. Amen?




Who invented that stuff. ? Another bible miner?
 
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Jimmy D

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Are your eyes open?

What are you looking for? A fossil with a birth certificate that declares this fossil is indeed the descendent of that fossil? Sorry, there are no birth certificates down there. But we can be quite certain the Hyracotherium in that picture was a cousin of an ancestor of the horse and zebra. Was it a fourth cousin? A thousandth cousin? A millionth cousin? We don't know. But in all likelihood the ancestors looked very much like this Hyracoteherium.


How about you look at the evidence?

This is not merely a horse with more toes. It is not even classified in the same genus as the horse. It is not even classed in the same family of genera as the horse. It is more like a hyrax than a horse.

So if a hyrax-like creature evolves into a zebra, you yawn?

Uh, this is also ancestor of the zebra and donkey. Is the Zebra just a subspecies of the horse? Is the donkey a horse?


Anchitherium, Callipus, Sinnohippus, etc.

HorseEvolution.jpg

I'd like (maybe not the correct word) to see Justa's explanation of where all the creatures that left these fossils came from and disappeared to. Are they related? Separately created? Which mated with which to produce the next?
 
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Jimmy D

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Yes you are claiming that. You claim that the ancestor of the horse evolved into the modern horse and so therefore we all evolved from a common ancestor.

Where did he claim that?

Like Truth said, there are so many ifs involved in the horse thing it's silly. There are so many assumptions it's ridiculous. This thing could very well be an ancient taper.

Your 'insight' is very revealing.

What is your explanation for this group of fossils?
 
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Bugeyedcreepy

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The inability to reproduce is not evidence of evolution. For ring species to be an example of evolution, the salamander etc., must become something other than what it was, and the salamanders remained salamanders.
I'm not sure you understand what Evolution is and how it works. Literally, a change in the frequency of alleles in a population is evolution. That's all it needs to be able to make changes over time. We've proven that it's possible with Dogs in as little as 15,000 years... -_-
Do you really not understand that for evolution to be true at some point an A must become a B?
Given time and barring extinction/reunification, A will become B and we have evidence of that in the genome of every creature alive today (as well as some that have been extinct for hundreds of thousands of years even...). We can trace the genetic evolution through comparative genomics and in fact, this is how we know how related any two humans are through paternity testing and forensic DNA - it's the exact same process by which we can determine how related any two living organisms are. All this aside, biologists were classifying life within clades with a high degree of fidelity and very little error in relationships when we finally got the technology to verify everything with genetics.
Poor analogy. The ability to gather food easier may result in the survival of the species, but it will not result in a change of species.
Why not? If two giraffes are struggling to find enough food to survive, wouldn't the giraffe with the longer neck be able to access more food than a giraffe with a shorter neck? Voila! Selection Advantage! Point refuted. If not, please explain why.
Saying it is true doesn not make it true. The explanation must include HOW it is genetically possible, and the hardest thing you need to explain is why a l and animal surviving well on land would need to become something other than what it was. That refutes natural selection.
Why would I need to explain why what happened actually happened? I think you're asking the wrong question. The evidence shows this is what happened, so a proper question might be to ask why it happened that way, or why the evidence shows this if you seem to think it didn't happen that way. Incredulous stares and non-acceptance aren't a refutation of the evidence in any way, I'm afraid.
You didn't give any evidence for only 1 reason, you have none. My evidence is the laws of genetics. Parents with no gene for fins, can't have a kid with fins. Can you falsify that?
Even if I hadn't already, I don't need to falsify that because it's already a failed hypothesis. The genes for fins is literally a variation of the genes for any tetrapod - there's a thousand examples of intermediary hands/fins/wings in the mammalian clade alone that demonstrates this fact already. Bats, Sea lions, Whales, Sugar gliders, Beavers, Deer, Cats, Apes, Otters, Manatees - All of them have variations of the exact same genes that build arms and legs! Everything from slightly webbed fingers through to fully fleshed out fins, wings, walking sticks, paddles, etc. over the exact same skeletal structure us apes have in our arms (yep, find me one bone we have that the other great apes don't have, or vice-versa). Most of the bones in our arms have an analog in the flipper of a whale or the wing of a bat and the structure is homologous. If we were individually and uniquely created, then why wouldn't we all have structures that are uniquely created and not sharing analogues with all the other life forms?


Your effort to not accept the evidence is perplexing. Nobody who thinks rationally expects to see such a profound change in any species in our lifetime, because such a thing to happen so quick is next to impossible. Major morphological changes take hundreds of thousands, if not millions of years. Since yours was a non-starter, I have a counter-challenge for you. We're all descended from the same mammal-like synapsid of which there are ***ZERO*** examples of mammals at all in the geological column prior. All you have to do to falsify my claim is to find one single mammal in the geological column before my mammal-like synapsid... Excuse me if I don't hold my breath waiting on that though.
 
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doubtingmerle

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I'd like (maybe not the correct word) to see Justa's explanation of where all the creatures that left these fossils came from and disappeared to. Are they related? Separately created? Which mated with which to produce the next?
Exactly. I and others have been through this before with Justa. Where does he think all those fossils came from? Why are those fossils in the horse family arranged in a way that evolution expects? He has no interest in responding with his view of the fossils. All he can do is pretend to refute our explanation, without ever trying to provide an explanation of his own.
 
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doubtingmerle

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Yes you are claiming that. You claim that the ancestor of the horse evolved into the modern horse and so therefore we all evolved from a common ancestor.
Rjs330, the purpose of conversation is to understand each other. You don't need to agree with me. That is fine. But I would like you to understand me. If you do not understand me, then I am wasting my time writing to you.

In the post to which you responded I stated three times that I do not claim that fossils in an unrelated line of evolution prove that men came from apes. I stated three times that there is other evidence for men coming from apes. I think I have made my view clear. And yet you write back in response saying that I am saying the exact opposite of what I said to you three times in that post.

Are you interested in understanding people here? If not, then why should anybody respond to you?

If you wish to understand me, then please go back and read again the post you responded to, which says the opposite of what you claim I said.
 
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tas8831

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Yes mutations happen. But the mutations do mean one creature eventually evolved into all creatures. All it means is that a creatures can mutate but still remain of the same group. Cats are cats and k9s are k9s. Spidera have always been spiders from the beginning. They did not evolve or mutate from the same creature we did.


So the obvious implications in those studies are lost on you.

Got it.

Can you at least muster the integrity to retract your slur about the outcomes of these analyses being based on "assumptions"? Because they are not - they are based on observable phenomena.
 
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tas8831

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Yes mutations happen. But the mutations do mean one creature eventually evolved into all creatures. All it means is that a creatures can mutate but still remain of the same group. Cats are cats and k9s are k9s. Spidera have always been spiders from the beginning. They did not evolve or mutate from the same creature we did.

So you did not grasp the relevance or the implications of the studies.

Got it.
 
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bhsmte

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So the obvious implications in those studies are lost on you.

Got it.

Can you at least muster the integrity to retract your slur about the outcomes of these analyses being based on "assumptions"? Because they are not - they are based on observable phenomena.

He will likely respond talking about robots. Those same robots, he cant define.
 
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