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DNA preserves the integrity of its program

tas8831

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Your early mice to later mice and early bacteria to later bacteria were great examples of exactly what I said thanks....


LOL!

So, you did not understand why those were presented.

Not surprising - not at all. You dismiss molecular analyses based on a truly naive claim that because everything has DNA, read in groups of 3 of the 4 possible nucleotides, that we should expect similarity blah blah blah.

Molecular phylogenetics looks for patterns or shared, unique mutations to assess relatedness. % sequence identity falls out of these analyses, but that similarity alone is no longer used as an assessment of phylogeny (those techniques were used prior to the development of sufficient computing power to analyze large amounts of sequence data).

Surely you have come across such things in your 30 years of teaching yourself about evolution? No?

Allow me to help the autodidact out:


This paper is a classic - they took KNOWN phylogenies of inbred mice, sequenced some of their DNA, then ran those sequences though programs assessing patterns of mutation:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

This research did something similar, except that they MADE their own known phylogeny, of VIRUSES, not bacteria (you know the difference, do you not?) and analyzed their sequences:



Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

This paper assessed the reliability of such methods:


Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



Not so hard to grasp when an intelligent, honest adult man actually reads and NOT for the sole purpose of finding fault.
 
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tas8831

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And the fossils of the created Amphibian Kind is... where?




The fact that you mention"similarities" proves that you do not understand the methods or know about any of the data used to reconstruct phylogenetic trees.

Here is a hint - similarities are certainly informative, but it is the patterns of shared, unique characters that are indicative of descent. And this has, in fact, based on tested methods:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.




Please actually learn about such things before you foolishly dismiss them based on a rather naive and shallow "understanding" of what they encompass.


You missed a couple of things.
 
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tas8831

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And why is the most primitive always a black man and the allegedly most “evolved” always a white man? Go figure (remember poor Ota)...Time Magazine, “How Man became Man” (Leaky 1977)


Clearly because the Leakey's are racists.

Just like creationist Christian Henry Morris, PhD., who wrote:

"Often the Hamites, especially the negroes, have become actual personal servants or even slaves to the others. Possessed of a genetic character concerned mainly with mundane
matters..."

'The Beginning of the World', 1991
 
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PsychoSarah

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It Is an opinion because they do not KNOW.
Saying that 99.99% certainty is "just an opinion" is a gross misrepresentation of science overall. By your definition, the only thing that isn't "just an opinion" is how mathematical equations work.



Because it is believed and taught does not make it true.
No, but a minuscule chance of a given conclusion being wrong doesn't make it any less absurd to act as if it's highly probable that this conclusion is wrong, "it's just an opinion".

There is no evidence on the earth a segment of such magnitude was ever broken off (even by a huge Astroid or Meteor) and flung only so far into space.
The Earth's tilts. Planetary tilts are caused by collisions with large objects. The reason why our planet doesn't have a giant scar is because it wasn't done forming yet when this happened. It's like you are claiming that since a cake I baked doesn't have a noticeable chunk missing that I couldn't have removed some of the batter at any point, even though I could have easily done so before I put it into the oven and the result would have only been a smaller cake, not a misshapen one.

Had the moon not always been there (causing a gyroscope effect) we would have been pulled closer to the Sun and life would never have happened.
No, we would have been pulled closer to the sun if the mass of the moon was missing (that is, when that mass was a part of the planet, it had the same impact on the distance). What you are thinking of is how the moon-Earth dynamic results in a much rounder orbit. So, if the lunar mass had remained a part of this planet instead, seasonal changes would be more dramatic. This wouldn't necessarily have made life impossible on this planet, though.



The statement Tas made was “Opinions that are premised on desires (NOT EVIDENCE) have no weight to them, they can be dismissed.” So having no evidence of the assumption based conclusion renders it dismessable (though I still place it in the “considerable” category, by HIS definition it must be dismissed)
Evidence that the moon was once a part of this planet:
1. a level of chemical composition similarity that is beyond the realm of "reasonable coincidence".
2. The Earth's tilt; an indication that the planet endured a massive collision at some point. With the fact that the surface doesn't have a lasting scar from it, it is reasonable to conclude that this happened while the planet was still developing.
3. The moon is too large for a planet our size to have captured it as a foreign celestial body.

These are evidence, whether you like it or not. Also, who was "desiring" this explanation? Out of all the physically possible ones, this has to be the most boring explanation. A deity or aliens putting it there would be infinitely cooler.



Again it IS an opinion! There are ZERO fossil examples of fibians or amphibish anywhere.
Tiktaalik is one, whether you like it or not. Asking for Animorphs is asking for the wrong thing.


a) a premise based on a presupposition (hence the desire) that the hypothesis is true (or obvious according to some)
Give 1 reason people would actually WANT evolution to be true. And no garbage like "not wanting to be accountable to some deity" or whatnot. Because all the reasons I can think of to want the theory of evolution to be accurate involve practical applications; the sorts of things that don't work if the theory isn't a good representation of reality.

b) the hypothesis being believed and accepted as truth before any such so-called evidence was produced influences the interpretation to fit the theoretical premise
I see a lot of that from Answers in Genesis.


Zinjanthropus boisei
was found by Mary Leaky around 750 feet away from (and 50 feet down) from the remains of some early stone tools that had footprints leafing away from them. The sparse Zinj fossils were unquestionably australopithicene (small cranial size and all).
Pfft, how old is your source? That species hasn't been called that in years. You're talking about Paranthropus boisei. Also, it's NOT a species thought to have used stone tools, though it is not impossible, given that there are stone tools near the bodies. However, there are also species in the genus Homo in that same rock layer, so the tools are generally attributed to them.



Apes do not make stone tools (even now after millions of years). They may use stones as tools and sharpen sticks to get at gnats and so on but that is magnitudes different.
I looked this up, and you are straight up wrong; chimpanzees do actually shape stones to use them as tools. Just not a whole lot, though there is actual evidence via remains depicting that chimps have been using stone tools for at least a few thousand years. Bonobos make tools as well, here is a video of that:


Yes some apes NOW use tools, perhaps their puny intellects are finally developing, and maybe some always did (though we have no evidence) but the case I am referring to is when 750 feet (almost a football field away) from stone tools (the tools found near the Laetoli footprints) the Leakys found the upper remains of a young female ape. Their conclusion (based on the preconcluded assumption that there were no humans in that time period AND eager for funding) that this implied that this young ape or her family made the tools and used them.
I have no idea if they concluded those tools were made by the species they found or not, but the modern consensus goes against it. So, why should I care?



So sad you have been fooled! Have you ever seen what we actually found for the fossil? You could not possibly conclude as you have done, with any sense of assurance if you had. What we found was only mostly the head of the creature and some of the top of the body, and IT was quite flattened and splintered.
Your description doesn't fit the fossil finds of any of the species we have been discussing. In fact, if I didn't know any better, I'd say you went out of your way to pick species which have remarkably intact fossil remains.


A German team sent to Java to investigate, shortly thereafter, unearthed thousands of cubic meters of material, sending crates of fossils back to Germany, Dubois himself refused cooperation with the expedition, and refused to let them examine the actual bones he had found. No evidence of Dubois’ Java man could be found! Dr. Carthaus, a geologist on the expedition, after only finding ape remains (mostly like gibbons or orangutan) mixed among possibly human remains, concluded that Dubois’ Java man did not exist. (See Nature, volume 87, page 50).
These fossils were later removed from Dubois's possession, and have been accessible for analysis since 1900. Historical context: in the late 1800s, there was a huge rush to find missing links in the human fossil record. Dubois did find a tooth, a skull cap, and a thigh bone, but critics claimed it wasn't good enough to warrant labeling the find as "a missing link". Dubois did not help his cause, ultimately; he erroneously depicted the creature he found as being more similar in structure to a gibbon in order to try and portray it more as a missing link. Link to the fossil, under an old name for it File:Pithecanthropus erectus-PeterMaas Naturalis.jpg - Wikipedia
Looking at it, it's kinda funny, since he managed to find only bones that would, by themselves, look fairly human XD

Later Professor Emil Selenka’s team investigating the stone marked site of Dubois as well as the surrounding area, dug down an additional 35 feet and also failed to find even one more example. Why? Well later when scientists themselves rebuked his claim (though sadly still in some texts) they found he combined two unrelated fossil fragments and failed to report the two human like skulls (the Wadjak skulls) he had found at the same site (and had hid for 30 years from the scientific community).
Interesting thing about Dubois; he really, really wanted his discovery to be of a less human-like creature than it actually was. I'm not sure why you are focusing on the failings of a man that never influenced the entire scientific community, or even a notable portion of it, with his stubborn denial.

The skull cap and molars (totally ape) were found on one occasion, and then later, about 50 feet away (still in level D however), they found the femur (equal to any human though slightly thicker) and instead of seeing it as possible evidence of early HUMANS existing at the same time as this other creature (which would be against the conclusion that would get funded) they fit the two unrelated finds into the theory (typical of bad science), and so erroneously insisted they belonged to the same creature and presented it as proof of an ape-like creature that was upright and bi-pedal like a human (remember poor Ota Benga). Then Ralph von Koenigswald (a Paleontologist) found a definitely human skull cap from the same time period as Dubois’ Java man in the same area (but these truths do not make it into the textbooks for open minded consideration). The Mojokerto child skull cap (found by von Koenigswald later still) was also clearly human (he named it Pithecanthropus modjokertensis), but Dubois (the pedagoguery’s current hero at the time) protested that Pithecanthropus was not a human but an "ape-man" (do you see how the theory was used to interpret the data? Come on now….you know that is bad science)….see Theunissen, Bert (Jan 1, 1989), Eugène Dubois and the Ape-Man from Java: The History of the First `Missing Link' and Its Discoverer,(Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 161–162).
Based on analysis much later, they all are considered to belong to Homo erectus. FYI, all members of the genus Homo are called "human", regardless of species. I know, it's stupid, but people do that.

Yes possibly just a variety of Erectus but the re-naming and conclusion was made and accepted before these others were found which were then placed in this category. He was first named after a contrived combination of various bones from different countries (a mock creature that one cannot possibly know actually existed)...other skulls found from similar geological layers HAVE been so classified (now some from Africa).
Incorrect history of the naming and discovery of this species; the first fossil discovered was that half of the lower jaw in 1907, and the species was named then; the second find was a nearly complete skull (just missing a lower jaw) that was originally labelled as a different species but is currently considered to be a Homo heidelbergensis skull. Most of the fossils of this species are skulls or skulls in addition to other bones, there really isn't a lot of room for "a mishmash identity" here.

How about Richard Leaky's "The First Europeans", National Geographic, July 1997, page 108, which is a really imaginatively contrived composite (totally imagined, and I believe engineered to shape public opinion) based on the Boxgrove find (a few bones), the Heidelberg jaw (which may be Erectus or Ape due to the simian ridge), and a needed, sent for, and purchased, Bodo Ethiopian skull. Sounds a bit like Frankenstein...
1. you are communicating the finds incorrectly. At the Boxgrove site specifically, a tibia and some teeth were found. However, Homo heidelbergensis fossil skulls had already been discovered prior to the findings of this site.
2. Simian ridge... are you talking about the simian shelf seen in the jaws of many apes? If you are, I find no sources that suggest Homo heidelbergensis has such a structure in the jaw, or any mention of any controversial jaw fossil attributed to this species. I've looked at the jaws and compared them to both our species and that of Homo erectus (which does have the simian shelf) and... I'm actually at a bit of a loss. Homo heidelbergensis has a remarkably vertical front to the jaw, lacking the distinctive chin of our species and lacking the curvature I see in Homo erectus. I actually cannot tell if Homo heidelbergensis would count as having a simian shelf or not. If there is such a jaw, it would be understandable that there is some debate on the identity of it because of the presence of a simian shelf.
3. There have been plenty of skulls and jaws discovered of this species, so I have no idea why one would need to purchase either; usually, approximations based on other fossils are used to make casts to fill in the missing segments of fossil, since a jaw from one individual and the skull of another wouldn't likely be a good fit, for the reasons of variation within populations.


Nope not Lucy...you remember the half-naked African guy with the huge artistically derived mask on the cover? No? Oh ho....that’s hilarious propaganda...you have to see it for yourself...had so many talking for years and it was shown in schools as proof (that is where I first saw it). And why is the most primitive always a black man and the allegedly most “evolved” always a white man? Go figure (remember poor Ota)...Time Magazine, “How Man became Man” (Leaky 1977)
Oh yes, so funny, before the human genome was even sequenced. Ugh, why are you harping on about views discarded over a decade ago? Furthermore, is there a reason you aren't mentioning what species this is supposed to reference? Are you seriously going to try to make me track down your source that's older than I am just so that I can properly address it? This isn't a peer reviewed paper, you don't have to do citations, just link your sources.

Recall that I am 22, and thus have had no experiences from before 1995.
 
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tas8831

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A few more things I just noticed...
It Is an opinion because they do not KNOW. Because it is believed and taught does not make it true.

ironic.

There is no evidence on the earth a segment of such magnitude was ever broken off (even by a huge Astroid or Meteor) and flung only so far into space.

There is no evidence that some 'unknown entity' created an original cat 'kind', either, but you seem to fancy that opinion.

Funny how your standards of evidence are so fluid when it comes to your OWN position, isn't it?

Yes some apes NOW use tools, perhaps their puny intellects are finally developing

"Puny intellects"? What about YOUR 'puny forest survival skills'?

In my words, an in-between state or creature that constitutes one becoming the other...

I've heard creationists say that before, and I show them Tiktaalik, and they say "oh no, that's not becoming something new, it's a complete creature". I have no idea why some people think an organism that is transitioning into another wouldn't be "complete", they have to survive and reproduce over many generations people, and all the body parts evolve together, so it wouldn't even make sense for an organism to be from the waist down reptile and from the waist up amphibian.

So sad you have been fooled! Have you ever seen what we actually found for the fossil? You could not possibly conclude as you have done, with any sense of assurance if you had. What we found was only mostly the head of the creature and some of the top of the body, and IT was quite flattened and splintered.



3 DECADES of study and reading and talking with - get this- ACTUAL SCIENTISTS - and this guy still gets his information from creationist websites! Which creationist's lies/incompetence did you read and believe without question - David Menton?

Take a look - for apparently the first time ever -

Tiktaalik roseae: Meet Tiktaalik


Just the head! So flattened, so splintered! No 'expert' can possibly make anything out of it!

SMH
 
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PsychoSarah

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A few more things I just noticed...

ironic.



There is no evidence that some 'unknown entity' created an original cat 'kind', either, but you seem to fancy that opinion.

Funny how your standards of evidence are so fluid when it comes to your OWN position, isn't it?



"Puny intellects"? What about YOUR 'puny forest survival skills'?





3 DECADES of study and reading and talking with - get this- ACTUAL SCIENTISTS - and this guy still gets his information from creationist websites! Which creationist's lies/incompetence did you read and believe without question - David Menton?

Take a look - for apparently the first time ever -

Tiktaalik roseae: Meet Tiktaalik


Just the head! So flattened, so splintered! No 'expert' can possibly make anything out of it!

SMH
The most hilarious thing to me is him talking about "making transitions from just splinters of bones", and not one species he has brought up actually had that situation. The reason it's so funny; there actually are fossil species considered to be relevant to human evolution which were just discovered in mostly a mess of pieces. Why not bring up Ardipithecus ramidus, which was discovered with such a mangled pelvis and odd foot we can't actually be sure it was bipedal? Or how about Homo rudolfensis, for which there is only 1 fossil in good enough condition to be used to name the species?

Seriously, so many fossils are found in garbage condition that have to be carefully pieced together (and people have made mistakes with doing it), how the heck did pshun manage to avoid picking at least 1 species for which this was the case?
 
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Ophiolite

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how the heck did pshun manage to avoid picking at least 1 species for which this was the case?
The autodidact can make egregious errors because of the trajectory of his or her epistemology. (I learned that myself. :) )
 
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tas8831

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The autodidact can make egregious errors because of the trajectory of his or her epistemology. (I learned that myself. :) )

The problem with 99% of autodidacts is that they have both a poor teacher and a poor education.
 
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pshun2404

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A few more things I just noticed...
ironic.

There is no evidence that some 'unknown entity' created an original cat 'kind', either, but you seem to fancy that opinion.

Funny how your standards of evidence are so fluid when it comes to your OWN position, isn't it?

"Puny intellects"? What about YOUR 'puny forest survival skills'?

3 DECADES of study and reading and talking with - get this- ACTUAL SCIENTISTS - and this guy still gets his information from creationist websites! Which creationist's lies/incompetence did you read and believe without question - David Menton?

Take a look - for apparently the first time ever -

Tiktaalik roseae: Meet Tiktaalik

Just the head! So flattened, so splintered! No 'expert' can possibly make anything out of it!

SMH

If you want to discuss Tik open a separate thread...so we can talk about the difference between the actual data versus the assumptions.
 
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tas8831

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If you want to discuss Tik open a separate thread...so we can talk about the difference between the actual data versus the assumptions.


Nice dodge - you seem to ignore new threads started to discuss issues you had brought up in other threads.
 
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tas8831

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So, pshun2404 - given your 100% abandonment of this subject, can I conclude that you have conceded?

Or are there more aspersions to be cast, more bland unsupported dismissals to be made?
LOL!

So, you did not understand why those were presented.

Not surprising - not at all. You dismiss molecular analyses based on a truly naive claim that because everything has DNA, read in groups of 3 of the 4 possible nucleotides, that we should expect similarity blah blah blah.

Molecular phylogenetics looks for patterns or shared, unique mutations to assess relatedness. % sequence identity falls out of these analyses, but that similarity alone is no longer used as an assessment of phylogeny (those techniques were used prior to the development of sufficient computing power to analyze large amounts of sequence data).

Surely you have come across such things in your 30 years of teaching yourself about evolution? No?

Allow me to help the autodidact out:


This paper is a classic - they took KNOWN phylogenies of inbred mice, sequenced some of their DNA, then ran those sequences though programs assessing patterns of mutation:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

This research did something similar, except that they MADE their own known phylogeny, of VIRUSES, not bacteria (you know the difference, do you not?) and analyzed their sequences:



Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

This paper assessed the reliability of such methods:


Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.



Not so hard to grasp when an intelligent, honest adult man actually reads and NOT for the sole purpose of finding fault.
 
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pshun2404

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Nice dodge - you seem to ignore new threads started to discuss issues you had brought up in other threads.

Not ignoring anything. We could have a hearty exchange of many posts regarding opinions about Tik, but what does that have to do with the subject of this thread? Apparently DNA does preserve its integrity (not perfectly), however such things as DNA rearrangement show us that at a primary level it strives to conserve its original pattern as much as possible.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Not ignoring anything. We could have a hearty exchange of many posts regarding opinions about Tik, but what does that have to do with the subject of this thread? Apparently DNA does preserve its integrity (not perfectly), however such things as DNA rearrangement show us that at a primary level it strives to conserve its original pattern as much as possible.
Pfft, as much as possible? That's demonstrably wrong; bacteria maintain their DNA way better than any eukaryote does. For example, considering replication errors, there is one per 10^9 bases in humans. In bacteria, there is an error per 10^11 bases. Human DNA is not maintaining itself as well as is biologically possible, that's for sure.
 
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pshun2404

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Apparently 1 in every 1,000,000,000 that sticks around IS as well as biologically possible (and that's just replication errors)! And yet the integrity of the Human DNA program after more than a million years is still producing humans? Go figure! And oh my, the integrity of this bacterial DNA program is still producing those bacteria...hmmm!!!
 
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joshua 1 9

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What are your thoughts?
It is no wonder we are inundated with fake news when we look at all the fake & false science people invent to try and promote their corrupted agenda.
 
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pshun2404

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LOL!

So, you did not understand why those were presented.

Not surprising - not at all. You dismiss molecular analyses based on a truly naive claim that because everything has DNA, read in groups of 3 of the 4 possible nucleotides, that we should expect similarity blah blah blah.

Molecular phylogenetics looks for patterns or shared, unique mutations to assess relatedness. % sequence identity falls out of these analyses, but that similarity alone is no longer used as an assessment of phylogeny (those techniques were used prior to the development of sufficient computing power to analyze large amounts of sequence data).

Surely you have come across such things in your 30 years of teaching yourself about evolution? No?

Allow me to help the autodidact out:

This paper is a classic - they took KNOWN phylogenies of inbred mice, sequenced some of their DNA, then ran those sequences though programs assessing patterns of mutation:

Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

This research did something similar, except that they MADE their own known phylogeny, of VIRUSES, not bacteria (you know the difference, do you not?) and analyzed their sequences:

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

This paper assessed the reliability of such methods:

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.

Not so hard to grasp when an intelligent, honest adult man actually reads and NOT for the sole purpose of finding fault.

Yet only...if this intelligent, honest, adult male, who did read what you posted, had produced such a post, I would have received the accusation that I was quote mining from articles that are "way too old" used only to support my view. Then accused of getting my perspective from some creationist websites, compared to other topically unrelated threads, couched in subtle insults of my person or intelligence...but that's okay, I understand. But thanks I did enjoy them.

As far as Dr. Henry Morris goes, yes it is true that many fine scientists are unable to keep the various forms of prejudice out of the interpretation of evidence process and end up coloring the interpretation with such opinion. I agree this is a very sad state of affairs since so many that hold similar opinions fall right into the snare. I find they do not do this with bad intention, they actually believe their presuppositions to be true.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Apparently 1 in every 1,000,000,000 that sticks around IS as well as biologically possible (and that's just replication errors)! And yet the integrity of the Human DNA program after more than a million years is still producing humans?
-_- dude, our species has only existed for 200,000 years. You might be having issues due to the fact that all members of the genus Homo are referred to as humans. Heck, even our own species hasn't remained unchanged for the duration of its existence; our brains got larger and our bones became thinner and longer. Also, the diversification of all the various "races" occurred within that time frame, with some of them arising as recently as just 10,000 years ago.



Go figure! And oh my, the integrity of this bacterial DNA program is still producing those bacteria...hmmm!!!
-_- but not always bacteria of the same genus or species; they evolve a lot faster than we do thanks to their short generation times. Also, to demand a bacteria transition to "not a bacteria" is like demanding a chicken population to give rise to freaking mushrooms.
 
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pshun2404

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-_- dude, our species has only existed for 200,000 years. You might be having issues due to the fact that all members of the genus Homo are referred to as humans. Heck, even our own species hasn't remained unchanged for the duration of its existence; our brains got larger and our bones became thinner and longer. Also, the diversification of all the various "races" occurred within that time frame, with some of them arising as recently as just 10,000 years ago.

-_- but not always bacteria of the same genus or species; they evolve a lot faster than we do thanks to their short generation times. Also, to demand a bacteria transition to "not a bacteria" is like demanding a chicken population to give rise to freaking mushrooms.

"dude, our species has only existed for 200,000 years"

Yeah I was going by your team's assessment of Homo! But even so, indicators from Jebel Irhoud date back to at least 300,000 years, and the ancient Homo Sapien Denisovan lineage has been found in Western Europe going back 400,000 years, and the latest on Homo Sapien Neandertalis is more indicative of 600,000 years (and their brains were most likely larger)...but I believe we see evidence for humans in the Olduvai Gorge (the monolithic structure, human footprints, and various stone tools)...maybe not modern sapien Sapiens but sapiens just the same. Also Race is an illusion. Plus I did not demand a transition from bacteria to non-bacteria (since I do not believe that ever happened) but so far after about 80,000 experimental generations of E-Coli they are still E-Coli.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Planetary tilts are caused by collisions with large objects.
We deal with the spindown rate of the earth and the receding rate of the moon and the tilt of the earth and the effect the moon has on the tide. There is a computer model that they feel is more accurate than others. The earth and the moon are almost duel planets dancing together.

Giant-impact hypothesis - Wikipedia
 
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joshua 1 9

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our species has only existed for 200,000 years.
There was a big change in the climate and atmosphere at the time Pangea began to break up. As the dinosaurs began to decrease the mammals began to increase.
 
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