Daughter's Wedding? Help?

[Getting_old]

Without typing a book this is one of those fundamental heart vs principle questions! We are a the typical serving, mission going, church attending, praying, and believing family and our oldest has chosen to not live as a Christian anymore.

This isn't weeks, months, this is years (6) now. The issue is deep down I know the question will come sooner than later that she will want to marry her live together non Christian mouth of sailor etc etc boyfriend.

The wife believes in grace at all cost that God's will and he knows best that we must love unconditionally. I agree, but love unconditionally does not mean I pay for a wedding I do not condone or a lifestyle I have not agreed with for 6 years now.

The wife and I have never fought in 20 years. This is a topic we have fought about. She thinks we should pay for the wedding when it comes since we were willing to pay for college (she dropped out), but I disagree. Life is with consequences, I don't accept your life choices and do not give my blessing. I will walk down the aisle if she asks and give a token gift, but I will not pay 20k+ for a wedding for people who live in a way that stands against everything I believe in (child or not).

Help please thank!!

 

[mina]

How old is your daughter? If she is old enough and they are both working, it's not so terrible that they would have to pay for it themselves. Maybe just give her a small lump sum towards whatever she wants to use it for- wedding or whatever. I lived in accordance with my parent's teachings, but when I got married I didn't ask my parents to pay for it. I was working and we wanted to make our own plans that didn't involve getting permission for things in our own wedding. I think my dad was waiting for me to ask and was willing, but I didn't accept any of his money towards the wedding. He gave me some money towards my dress and like some as a gift.

 

[gym_class_hero]

I would rather have my daughter married than living with some guy. If my daughter decided to get married, I would be happy she realized that's important in God's eyes and I would support her in that. Do you think by hardening your heart you bring her closer to God?

 

[snoochface]

The way you've laid it out, it seems like there's nothing your daughter could do to redeem herself in your eyes. If she and her boyfriend get married, they are legalizing the way they've been living (your dislike of him isn't really an issue, right? It's just that they've been living together outside of marriage?) so why wouldn't you be happier about that than about them living together?

What if she breaks up with the foul mouthed loser and starts to date someone else? Isn't that making her not-living-a-Christian-life even worse? If she lives with a second guy, but you love him, think he's respectful, a good influence, a good provider, and a good man, would that make contributing to the wedding easier?

What if she started fresh, kicked loser guy to the curb, dated Mr. Wonderful without living with him first, decided to marry him, but was sinning unrepentantly in other ways unrelated to boyfriends or sexuality, and still denouncing her Christian upbringing? Would that make contributing to her wedding more palatable?

I think you need to understand your motives in choosing not to help. It sounds like: sexual sin = no money as punishment. If so, it's a fruitless punishment. She's an adult, you've had your influence over her, and she's choosing to go a different way - at least right now. Very often, this is the way it happens, and then down the road, the good solid base you gave her growing up is something she chooses to return to, when she hears God calling her or feels him supporting her through a crisis. And then all the angst about whether or not to contribute to her wedding would have been for nothing anyway. Either she's going to come back to God, or she's not, and wedding money is going to have no bearing on any of that.

When the prodigal son left the family, he left with his share of his father's inheritance. Even though he was going out to live a sinful life, he left with his dad's money. Food for thought.

All that said - my *personal* belief is that she's an adult, she's living on her own, the responsibility to pay for a wedding is hers and hers alone, regardless of whether she marries a loser or Mr. Wonderful, regardless of whether she is living as an unbeliever or a believer. It's antiquated to expect the father of the bride to pay for her wedding. She may not want that, or even ask for it. If you'd like to show her a kindness and not reject her choice completely, since he will be part of the family, you can offer a token amount, or just make it a wedding present after the fact. But if she's on her own and out of the house, there's really no reason she can't have the wedding she can afford, instead of expecting someone else to pay for her $20,000 launch party. Have that discussion before it becomes an emotional issue, if that's the way you choose to go, i.e. before she shows you the engagement ring.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

It's not required that parents pay for weddings. She's an adult. You have NO say in how she lives her life, but it's your choice to either keep the lines of communication open with her or kick her to the curb. I don't think kicking her to the curb is a particularly Christian response, as it would only reinforce her renouncing Christianity..." see Dad claims to be a Christian but he treats his own child like rubbish...what a lovely Christian response from someone who follows the one who said 'love one another as I have loved you'"

If you continue in this, you will push her further away.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Without typing a book this is one of those fundamental heart vs principle questions! We are a the typical serving, mission going, church attending, praying, and believing family and our oldest has chosen to not live as a Christian anymore.

This isn't weeks, months, this is years (6) now. The issue is deep down I know the question will come sooner than later that she will want to marry her live together non Christian mouth of sailor etc etc boyfriend.

The wife believes in grace at all cost that God's will and he knows best that we must love unconditionally. I agree, but love unconditionally does not mean I pay for a wedding I do not condone or a lifestyle I have not agreed with for 6 years now.

The wife and I have never fought in 20 years. This is a topic we have fought about. She thinks we should pay for the wedding when it comes since we were willing to pay for college (she dropped out), but I disagree. Life is with consequences, I don't accept your life choices and do not give my blessing. I will walk down the aisle if she asks and give a token gift, but I will not pay 20k+ for a wedding for people who live in a way that stands against everything I believe in (child or not).

Help please thank!!

I'm with you on this. I don't have a child but if I did and they wanted to do this I'd say they are on their own with the cost of it and everything else. I can't support their bad decision. As you said, there are consequences for actions. Doesn't mean I would not love my child. Just means I couldn't support them on certain things. Such as if a year into the marriage they are like "Dad I think I made a mistake marrying him (followed by weeping)". I'd be like "Can't say I didn't warn you!". I'd be nice of course but you make your bed, you have to sleep in it.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

The problem is you haven’t laid out a path to her getting into your good graces again. You just seem like you’re being difficult under the guise of moral superiority and faith. That’s difficult for a child to see and hard for some spouses to support against their kids.

You aren’t happy she’s not Christian anymore (by your version of Christianity) because she’s unmarried and living in a long-term committed relationship with a guy who swears (and etc etc, whatever that means) and is presumably also not Christian by your flavor of the faith. But if she says “ok, I’m legitimizing my more than half decade long relationship and finally getting married!” she’s still not living a life that’s good enough for you, despite the fact that she’s doing what you want her to do, and not worthy of your blessing.

So now you’re faced with a choice... Be “right” and cut her off, probably alienating her and her husband, and certainly breaking a portion of your own relationship with your wife... Which would put you in the wrong. Or being “wrong” and kicking in a bit and signaling to your daughter, her husband, and your wife that you’re willing to give reconciliation and a peaceful, happy family a shot. Considering a marriage brings with it other things (grandkids), starting off on the wrong foot on the pretense of moral superiority could risk ruining the relationship held across three generations of your family. That’s a heck of a legacy to create for yourself.

Though I will say, I think a 20k wedding is absurd. My first wedding was not even 25% of that (honeymoon included) and my second wasn’t even 1% of that. And a big blowout wedding of 20k for a 6 year long relationship seems a bit excessive. I’d be tweaked over saving for an investment in adulthood and then seeing it spent on something so pointlessly indulgent. If you’re drawing from funds initially set aside for college to pay for it, I’d say “The money saved for college was to invest in her future, a wedding is simply a ceremony to celebrate a part of her future. As a compromise, let’s put $5000 towards the wedding, either from her fund or not, and save the rest of it for something that will help her get a foothold in her adult life, like buying a house or if she decides to go to college later, because helping her future was what we saved that money for in the first place.” A wedding doesn’t need to be 20k, it’s just a party.

 

[Endeavourer]

I know one pastor (who is very conservative) who says that the event of moving in together is a marriage and he doesn't get very excited about the situation unless they then break up because he views that as a divorce.

His viewpoint rests on descriptions of marriages in the Bible where often there was no feast or fancy ceremony, but rather the bride and groom just started cohabiting.

Did you know that marriages did not require marriage licenses in the US until the civil war era and they were initially only required if a white person married a black person? For centuries marriages were valid in the eyes of God and man with no licenses.

Who is to say that they are not already married in the eyes of God?

There is a whole movement of very conservative Christians today who refuse to get a state license for marriage because they feel that a marriage is not the state's business.

If you do a google on getting married without a license you'll see quite a few sites promoting the idea that a marriage belongs to God, not to the state.

I don't subscribe to all of the points in any one of the links necessarily, but I have also developed a conviction (for reasons that are beside the point for the OP's issue, so I'll leave them out of my post) that a marriage of Christians should be regulated by God and does not require a license by the state today. If people didn't need licenses for hundreds of years before now, why do they need one now? That's why I found the viewpoint of that pastor intriguing.

 

[LinkH]

Without typing a book this is one of those fundamental heart vs principle questions! We are a the typical serving, mission going, church attending, praying, and believing family and our oldest has chosen to not live as a Christian anymore.

This isn't weeks, months, this is years (6) now. The issue is deep down I know the question will come sooner than later that she will want to marry her live together non Christian mouth of sailor etc etc boyfriend.

The wife believes in grace at all cost that God's will and he knows best that we must love unconditionally. I agree, but love unconditionally does not mean I pay for a wedding I do not condone or a lifestyle I have not agreed with for 6 years now.

The wife and I have never fought in 20 years. This is a topic we have fought about. She thinks we should pay for the wedding when it comes since we were willing to pay for college (she dropped out), but I disagree. Life is with consequences, I don't accept your life choices and do not give my blessing. I will walk down the aisle if she asks and give a token gift, but I will not pay 20k+ for a wedding for people who live in a way that stands against everything I believe in (child or not).

That's quite a dilemma, and it must be heart-breaking.

Do you want your daughter to get married? Ideally, she would be a Christian and would marry a godly Christian man. But if she has chosen not to be a Christian, would you, in this state, wish marriage with her on a godly Christian man? For our daughter's sake, maybe, but for his sake, it wouldn't be right. If a godly young man wanted to marry a girl who was not walking with the Lord, my guess is you would advise against it if he asked your advice.

So the question is, in her state of unbelief, should she marry? Should you oppose her getting married because she had decided she does not believe in Christ?

I would definitely oppose the idea of my girls being Christian and wanting to marry a non-Christian. This is a different situation, though. I don't know if it is wrong for you to give her away or pay for the wedding. If she marries, you'd have two family members to pray for to come to faith. If I were to consent to and support something like that as a father, I'd want to know the man was a decent guy. I don't get the impression you feel that way about him.

I don't know anything about your daughter's private life except you said she was living with this guy. But if this is the only guy she's been with and she marries him, based on some rather old statistics, she may have a lower chance of divorce than if she left him and married some other guy. In Teachman's 1990 study, women who were virgins at marriage and women who'd only slept with their husbands before marriage had lower divorce rates. In the Old Testament, if a man took a woman's virginity, he had to marry her, unless the father refused to give her to him in marriage.

I believe in father's giving their daughters away in marriage, btw. I'm teaching my children to think this way, too. My children are younger. I have a son in high school, but my oldest girl is in middle school. We had a talk about the song 'Rude' when it was popular.

 

[LinkH]

I know one pastor (who is very conservative) who says that the event of moving in together is a marriage and he doesn't get very excited about the situation unless they then break up because he views that as a divorce.

His viewpoint rests on descriptions of marriages in the Bible where often there was no feast or fancy ceremony, but rather the bride and groom just started cohabiting.

Did you know that marriages did not require marriage licenses in the US until the civil war era and they were initially only required if a white person married a black person? For centuries marriages were valid in the eyes of God and man with no licenses.

Who is to say that they are not already married in the eyes of God?

There is a whole movement of very conservative Christians today who refuse to get a state license for marriage because they feel that a marriage is not the state's business.

If you do a google on getting married without a license you'll see quite a few sites promoting the idea that a marriage belongs to God, not to the state.

I don't subscribe to all of the points in any one of the links necessarily, but I have also developed a conviction (for reasons that are beside the point for the OP's issue, so I'll leave them out of my post) that a marriage of Christians should be regulated by God and does not require a license by the state today. If people didn't need licenses for hundreds of years before now, why do they need one now? That's why I found the viewpoint of that pastor intriguing.

In the Bible, the father gives the daughter away in marriage. In the Old Testament, for virgins a covenant was made that involved giving the bride price to the father. Paul said the widow may marry whoever she wills, but only in the Lord. There are some details of how one couple got married. Boaz redeemed some property from a close relative, and declared before the elders that with the property, he was also accepting the widow Ruth as his wife.

The modern Christian wedding ceremony appears to be a Christianized version of a pre-Christian Roman custom. They used to say some words before a pagan priest.

Marriage in the Bible wasn't just shacking up or sleeping together. When Shechem slept with Dinah, he wasn't married to her. Even the pagans knew enough to ask her father if Shechem could have her as his wife. The man who fornicated with an unbetrothed virgin in the Old Testament was obligated to marry her, but her father could refuse her to him, but still collect the bride price for virgins.

 

[Endeavourer]

Marriage in the Bible wasn't just shacking up or sleeping together. When Shechem slept with Dinah, he wasn't married to her. Even the pagans knew enough to ask her father if Shechem could have her as his wife. The man who fornicated with an unbetrothed virgin in the Old Testament was obligated to marry her, but her father could refuse her to him, but still collect the bride price for virgins.

Read the account of Isaac's marriage to Rebecka in Genesis 24. The start of their marriage was when she moved into his tent. There was no ceremony.

How does the rape of Dinah even enter into this conversation? It's an entirely different topic. There was no intention of cohabitation or marriage. Rape or the loss of virginity is not the same as cohabitation. Evidence of that is your own assertion that if a man took a woman's virginity he was obliged to offer for her but he was not entitled to her and could be refused. That is far different from mutually intentional cohabitation.

You can build any fences you want to around marriage - or any concept for that matter, but I'm not aware of any command in the Bible, and more specifically in the New Testament after the law was fulfilled, that states a marriage celebration is a Biblically required component of marriage. Judging other people by a man-conceived fence as if it were Scripture itself is dangerous.

The Bible does describe certain traditions without endorsing them as the way we are to behave. Slavery is one example, or multiple wives another. Just because Jacob had two wives doesn't mean that we should engage in polygamy.

 

[Endeavourer]

Just to clarify, I'm NOT a fan of cohabitation at all.

I'm just saying that to my convictions, if cohabitation occurs, I do feel it is a marriage in God's sight and that if the couple breaks up, the Lord's guidance for divorce and remarriage applies.

I not only "believe" but know with absolute certainty that cohabitation without the intention to marry is very harmful to a relationship and decreases the odds of a successful, long term marriage.

 

[LinkH]

Read the account of Isaac's marriage to Rebecka in Genesis 24. The start of their marriage was when she moved into his tent. There was no ceremony.

Abraham's servant had already extended an offer of marriage on the family's behalf and they had been paid the bride-price. They probably had a party as was the custom. Her father, Bethuel, consented to it

I don't imagine the patriarchs had Roman Christian wedding ceremonies.

How does the rape of Dinah even enter into this conversation? It's an entirely different topic. There was no intention of cohabitation or marriage. Rape or the loss of virginity is not the same as cohabitation. Evidence of that is your own assertion that if a man took a woman's virginity he was obliged to offer for her but he was not entitled to her and could be refused. That is far different from mutually intentional cohabitation.

What about it causes you to think it was rape rather than fornication? It may have been. But they still asked the father. She did not just decide to cohabit with him and call it being married.

You can build any fences you want to around marriage - or any concept for that matter, but I'm not aware of any command in the Bible, and more specifically in the New Testament after the law was fulfilled, that states a marriage celebration is a Biblically required component of marriage. Judging other people by a man-conceived fence as if it were Scripture itself is dangerous.

The Bible does describe certain traditions without endorsing them as the way we are to behave. Slavery is one example, or multiple wives another. Just because Jacob had two wives doesn't mean that we should engage in polygamy.

There is scripture for the father giving the daughter away in marriage. There is no scripture for the idea that shacking up equals marriage. Rebecca entered Isaac's tent after her father consented to give her in marriage and received gifts sent from Abraham.

Jesus even mentioned giving in marriage.

 

[Tropical Wilds]

I don’t even think this needs to involve the spiritual weight of cohabitation or premarital sex or legal marriage vs spiritual marriage, or even how to deal with acting with grace to non-Christians.

I think it’s a simple discussion of being wrong to be right or being right to be wrong. The other issues cloud up the core issue, being that how he responds to this will mold his family’s perception of him and itself for at least 2, eventually 3 generations, potentially more. We aren’t talking about it he should fund her drug habit or an illegal activity, or even a wedding to a guy she’s known for a short time. She knows the guy and has been with for more than half a decade. There are plenty of families who wish that was their biggest family crisis.

So Dad doesn’t think he’s good enough for her... 9 out of 10 guys feel that way about their daughters. My father loved my first husband and was thrilled we were getting married, then cooled on him when he saw what married life with him was for me and he was sad I divorced but a bit relieved too. Then he loooooooathed my second husband from the moment he met him (though he never let on) to the moment we had our child and for quite awhile after. Then he found out my husband was working two jobs, 60-70 hours a week to help me pay down debt I came into the marriage with and his opinion changed to one of respect and a willingness to try and form a bond. Then I got majorly sick, our/my life turned completely upside down, and the way my husband reacted to it won my father over and then some. He ADORES my husband now, thinks he’s the most honorable, hard-working, devoted family man in the world. Seriously, he can do no wrong in my Dad’s eyes.

The point is, I’m glad he didn’t cut us all off and ruin his relationship with me, my husband, our child, alienate my mother and siblings, over something like who I married. Especially since, when given the chance, he could see that my husband (who’s also foul mouthed, on the other side of the political spectrum, not white collar, not college educated) is the diamond in a field of clay.

Even more pragmatically, they get married and stay married... Was the falling out worth it then? That’s the man of her forever. Can’t compete with that. And if they get married and divorce, she’ll need her family as a support network, which means having a good relationship with her is a vital asset to helping the family heal. So, again, is it worth it to fall out?

I vote for a reasonable, preset amount to give towards the wedding, especially if it’s coming from a fund meant for college, on the grounds that the money was saved for an investment that helps her future, like college or a house, and a 20k wedding for a couple who’s been together for so long and lives together is poor etiquette, much like a baby shower for one’s 3rd child.

 

[Endeavourer]

There is scripture for the father giving the daughter away in marriage. There is no scripture for the idea that shacking up equals marriage. Rebecca entered Isaac's tent after her father consented to give her in marriage and received gifts sent from Abraham.

Jesus even mentioned giving in marriage.

A mention is not a command.

Where is the Scripture which demands such?

Demanding something that Scripture does not demand is a dangerous path to follow.

Again, I'm not for cohabitation prior to a public statement of marriage because I think it is harmful to marriage. However, if a couple is cohabitating, to my conviction it is already a marriage in God's eyes, with or without a state license.

To my conviction, because cohabitation is a marriage in God's sight, then Biblical guidance for divorce applies to any separation.

 

[LinkH]

A mention is not a command.

Where is the Scripture which demands such?

Demanding something that Scripture does not demand is a dangerous path to follow.

Again, I'm not for cohabitation prior to a public statement of marriage because I think it is harmful to marriage. However, if a couple is cohabitating, to my conviction it is already a marriage in God's eyes, with or without a state license.

To my conviction, because cohabitation is a marriage in God's sight, then Biblical guidance for divorce applies to any separation.

Where does the Bible teach that cohabitation or statement along with a desire to be married is sufficient? What I did is look at the passages about marriage and see what made a marriage in the Bible. Here is an example in the Old Testament. It does contain commands.

Exodus 22
16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

How would that apply if he'd run off with her and taken her home and declared himself married to her, and she agreed? How would that have made it different? Notice verse 17.

Another reference.
Matthew 24:38
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark ...(NIV)

 

[Endeavourer]

Another reference.
Matthew 24:38
For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark ...(NIV)

This is very shaky ground to construe a command.

What other New Testament support do you have for commanding that a specific procedure being required of the Gentile converts for a marriage?

As we know, believers were rebuked for applying old Jewish laws to the Gentile converts in various passages.

 

[LinkH]

The Old Testament one contained a command. I Corinthians 7 contains a passage about 'giving her in marriage', which might refer to a father's role, or to taking a bride.

There isn't any scripture that says if you shack up and say you are married, that you are married.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

I would rather have my daughter married than living with some guy. If my daughter decided to get married, I would be happy she realized that's important in God's eyes and I would support her in that. Do you think by hardening your heart you bring her closer to God?

Yes, modeling a man with convictions, who is devoted to pleasing the Lord very well could bring her closer to the Lord.

 

[Gwen-is-new!]

Again, I'm not for cohabitation prior to a public statement of marriage because I think it is harmful to marriage. However, if a couple is cohabitating, to my conviction it is already a marriage in God's eyes, with or without a state license.

To my conviction, because cohabitation is a marriage in God's sight, then Biblical guidance for divorce applies to any separation.

I think cohabitation is "sexual immoralty" or "fornication" in God's eyes.