LDS God = 1 in 3 or 3 in 1?

Peter1000

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A priori assertion of "we're right, and therefore they're wrong". In reality this is merely the Mormon interpretation which certainly has no more validity in and of itself than the perspectives of the holy fathers provided above. You can claim "because after the apostles and their students died, church leaders could not or would not discern revelation from Jesus. (that is one of the signs of apostasy)" but that is mere assertion that neither I nor any other Christian has a reason to believe.

This is cart before the horse.

-CryptoLutheran
If your prostestation had not occurred, you might have a leg to stand on, but because of the monumental protest, I suspect you guys knew that the church was having a problem and got out.

We are close to 600 years after the protest, so you have a different feel for things. Things are more peaceful. But go back to the time of Luther, and read the history and you will know that the church had lost its way and the apostasy was real. When Luther said that satan was the head of the church, that should make you know that the church was gone.

I am just following Luther, who is the one that asserted what turns out to be the LDS message of the apostasy.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Then to you all the thousands of Christian churches are in perfect harmony as to the relationship between God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS?

All Christian churches are in perfect harmony about how a person is saved?

All Christian churches are in perfect harmony about how to keep the commandments of Jesus?

If all Christian churches are in perfect harmony, then I withdraw my assertion.

You tell me, should I withdraw my assertion?
The foundational truths have not been lost.
 
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dzheremi

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Why do you insist on remaking every person, movement, event, etc. that long predates the establishment of your own religion into evidence for your religion's "great apostasy" theory, Peter? It's incredibly ahistorical and inappropriate. My own Church does not support your religion (and never has, and never will -- and is furthermore not the topic of the thread), Lutheranism does not support your religion (and never has, and never will -- and is furthermore not the topic of the thread), etc. Particularly as there are representatives of these various traditions active in this thread attempting to interact with you so as to set straight your erroneous impressions of what went on historically in this or that case and what it means, that you continue to state things such as "I am just following Luther, who is the one that asserted what turns out to be the LDS message of the apostasy" is downright arrogant. You are not following Luther, at least not with a greater understanding of what he believed and why than an active and knowledgable Lutheran such as Via Crucis.

Stop telling other people what their churches or traditions did/do and why. Listen to others when they tell you what their traditions are about, not in order to attempt to buttress your own religion by manipulating others', but so that you can learn things you don't know and make more appropriate comparisons in the future.
 
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Peter1000

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Do you realize the hypocrisy of your statements here? "Paying" clergy has been around since the time of Moses, when part of the tithes went to the Levite priests. Are your Aaronic Priestholders paid by the church? Why not, if you are indeed the "restored" church and are supposedly doing things as God intended them to be.

So, either the lds "restoration" church is wrong about paying their clergy, or they are not really a "restoration" church. Which is it? Or do the lds get to pick and choose what they want to "restore"?

Oh, and as is fitting, your claim of "Many Christian churches have been built up for one reason..." is another one of your unsubstantied claims that has no truth in it, and only seems to serve as an attempt to build up the lds church by lowering Christianity. It's too bad your church can't stand on its merits alone.
Whenever money is involved, the temptation for corruption is increased dramatically. It has been the downfall of many religious endeavors.

If you read carefully, I acknowledged that our church has had break offs that were started because the men and women thought they could get rich through the offerings of the followers.

So mainline Christianity has no monopoly on money related problems. But our no-paid clergy does solve a lot of money issues.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Whenever money is involved, the temptation for corruption is increased dramatically. It has been the downfall of many religious endeavors.

If you read carefully, I acknowledged that our church has had break offs that were started because the men and women thought they could get rich through the offerings of the followers.

So mainline Christianity has no monopoly on money related problems. But our no-paid clergy does solve a lot of money issues.
Much ado about nothing. You're not really helping out your apostasy arguement, if that was your point in bringing up paying pastors.
 
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dzheremi

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Shouldn't-be-controversial-opinion time: Clergy should be paid. They also have lives and expenses related to their work, in non-Roman Catholic churches they often have families, etc. To not pay them is unbiblical in several respects (see, e.g., 1 Timothy 5:18), not to mention just really rude and kind of evil (think about it: who would benefit from making the clergy a non-option for people who might otherwise be called to it?). The idea that it's not "real work" (the most common objection I've seen from those who are not in clerical roles themselves) may actually carry some weight in some traditions, since there are some very anti-clerical traditions out there which do take it to such an extreme that they would rather essentially run off of slave labor than compromise their principles, but I am willing to be that if you asked most pastors/priests they'd be the last to say so themselves, if it were put in terms of how much time and effort they personally put into what they do. (Read: it is possible that even if one belongs to such a tradition, you can still see the amount of work it takes to simply have a functioning congregation and make allowances accordingly, even if you don't call it a salary or payment or whatever because these are bad words for some reason.)
 
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Peter1000

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The foundational truths have not been lost.
If you put 10 Christians in a room and ask them is baptism necessary for salvation, 5 would say yes, and give you biblical support. 5 would say no and give you biblical support. What is the truth?

That fundamental truth is lost, and that is an easy one.
 
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ViaCrucis

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If no is your answer, then what was the schism of 451ad?

This video should serve the purpose of Introduction to Ecclesiastical Controversies of the 5th Century:


The Non-Chalcedonians didn't leave, neither did the Chalcedonians leave. It was a debate that resulted in a breech within the Church between two parties both arguing tooth and nail that they are correct. Both parties claimed orthodoxy, both parties claimed the other to be schismatic.

Saying the Oriental Orthodox left "the Great Church" is historically false.

For better information, and to correct any errors in the video or provide better nuance (I hardly think the video is perfect, but it does present the gist of things for the most part; though I think it gets things wrong by conflating monophysitism and miaphysitism) I'll defer to our resident OO member here.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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If your prostestation had not occurred, you might have a leg to stand on, but because of the monumental protest, I suspect you guys knew that the church was having a problem and got out.

We are close to 600 years after the protest, so you have a different feel for things. Things are more peaceful. But go back to the time of Luther, and read the history and you will know that the church had lost its way and the apostasy was real. When Luther said that satan was the head of the church, that should make you know that the church was gone.

I am just following Luther, who is the one that asserted what turns out to be the LDS message of the apostasy.

Okay, so I've lost track of how often I've had to explain these things here and elsewhere:

The Reformation was not about protest. The term "Protestant" arises not from the Reformers and their reform, but from the political act of protestation at the Diet of Speyer in which the Holy Roman Emperor reversed the previous Imperial Diet that permitted religious freedom within the provinces of the Empire; the Evangelical Elector-Princes formally protested this reversal and this became known as the Protestation at Speyer and the Elector-Princes who protested became known as the Protestants. The term Protestant ultimately became the English word for for the Reformers and the adherents of the Reformation; in German today the word used is Evangelisch, Evangelical, the word Luther, Melancthon, et al used themselves.

We are coming up on the 500th anniversary of the Reformation, or more accurately the 500th anniversary of the nailing of the Ninety-Five Theses. Which, for the record, were not a protest against the Catholic Church but a call for academic debate on the abuses around the selling of indulgences.

The Reformation did not say that there was apostasy. The Reformation was about bringing reform into the Church on account of abuses which had crept into the Church within recent history. This is why we in the Augsburg Confession confess, explicitly, that nothing we teach is at odds with the Church Catholic, the Church of Rome, or her teachers

"5] This is about the Sum of our Doctrine, in which, as can be seen, there is nothing that varies from the Scriptures, or from the Church Catholic, or from the Church of Rome as known from its writers. This being the case, they judge harshly who insist that our teachers be regarded as heretics. 6] There is, however, disagreement on certain abuses, which have crept into the Church without rightful authority. And even in these, if there were some difference, there should be proper lenity on the part of bishops to bear with us by reason of the Confession which we have now reviewed; because even the Canons are not so severe as to demand the same rites everywhere, neither, at any time, have the rites of all churches been the same; 7] although, among us, in large part, the ancient rites are diligently observed. 8] For it is a false and malicious charge that all the ceremonies, all the things instituted of old, are abolished in our churches. 9] But it has been a common complaint that some abuses were connected with the ordinary rites. These, inasmuch as they could not be approved with a good conscience, have been to some extent corrected.

10] Inasmuch, then, as our churches dissent in no article of the faith from the Church Catholic, but only omit some abuses which are new, and which have been erroneously accepted by the corruption of the times, contrary to the intent of the Canons, we pray that Your Imperial Majesty would graciously hear both what has been changed, and what were the reasons why the people were not compelled to observe those abuses against their conscience. 11] Nor should Your Imperial Majesty believe those who, in order to excite the hatred of men against our part, disseminate strange slanders among the people. 12] Having thus excited the minds of good men, they have first given occasion to this controversy, and now endeavor, by the same arts, to increase the discord. 13] For Your Imperial Majesty will undoubtedly find that the form of doctrine and of ceremonies with us is not so intolerable as these ungodly and malicious men represent. 14] Besides, the truth cannot be gathered from common rumors or the revilings of enemies. 15] But it can readily be judged that nothing would serve better to maintain the dignity of ceremonies, and to nourish reverence and pious devotion among the people than if the ceremonies were observed rightly in the churches.
"

That is not a protest against the Catholic Church, that is not a rejection of the Catholic Church, that is not an abandonment of the Catholic Church, that is not the creation of a new church over and against or instead of the Catholic Church.

Lutherans have never ceased to be Catholics.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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NYCGuy

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Who is 'we'? If you are saying the billions of people in the Christain churches, then you must understand that Christianity is all over the board in their belief systems. Thousands of belief systemns. (BTW one sign of the apostasy)

After the apostles died, the truth got divided up into thousands of partial truths all being believed at the same time and hence the confusion of what the truth is.
(Which btw is a sign of the apostasy)

Again, you condemn Mormonism by your own words. After Joseph Smith's "restoration", there are now multiple schisms, all believed at the same time. Therefore, this is a sign of apostasy, according to your above logic.
 
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BigDaddy4

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If you put 10 Christians in a room and ask them is baptism necessary for salvation, 5 would say yes, and give you biblical support. 5 would say no and give you biblical support. What is the truth?

That fundamental truth is lost, and that is an easy one.
The truth in John 3:16, John 6:46, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:10, 2 Tim. 1:9, and a host of others have not been lost.

Again, more baseless, unsubstantiated assertions. Nothing has been lost.
 
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Peter1000

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The truth in John 3:16, John 6:46, Acts 2:21, Acts 16:31, Romans 10:10, 2 Tim. 1:9, and a host of others have not been lost.

Again, more baseless, unsubstantiated assertions. Nothing has been lost.
I can quote a host of scriptures from the same bible that you quoted from that conflict with everyone of the scriptures you have quoted.

Like I say, put 10 Christians in a room, and ask if baptism is necessary for salvation and 5 will say yes and prove it with scriptures from the bible. 5 will say no and will prove it with scriptures from the bible.

What is the truth, the bible proves both yes and no.

You can only tell me what you believe and you prove it with scriptures from the bible.

I turn around and tell you what I believe and it is different than what you believe and I prove it from the scriptures.

Something in wrong. And what is wrong is the truth of this matter has been lost. It will take the second coming of Jesus to know for sure, but by then, either you or I may be in trouble for not doing what Jesus commanded us to do,
whether he commanded us to be baptized or not.

If the truth were not lost, then you and I would agree on whether baptism is necessary for salvation or not. We would agree, but since we do not agree and there are many many beliefs about baptism, then that is proof that the truth has been lost.
 
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Peter1000

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Again, you condemn Mormonism by your own words. After Joseph Smith's "restoration", there are now multiple schisms, all believed at the same time. Therefore, this is a sign of apostasy, according to your above logic.
It is a sign of apostasy. The difference is that the Lord promised JS that these break offs would not amount anthing of significance and would not become a rival of the mother church which ended up in Salt Lake City Utah.

This has turned out to be true. There have been many persons that have apostatized from the LDS church, but none have amounted to anything that would rival Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City becomes stronger, and the break offs continue to be of no concern.
 
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BigDaddy4

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I can quote a host of scriptures from the same bible that you quoted from that conflict with everyone of the scriptures you have quoted.

Like I say, put 10 Christians in a room, and ask if baptism is necessary for salvation and 5 will say yes and prove it with scriptures from the bible. 5 will say no and will prove it with scriptures from the bible.

What is the truth, the bible proves both yes and no.

You can only tell me what you believe and you prove it with scriptures from the bible.

I turn around and tell you what I believe and it is different than what you believe and I prove it from the scriptures.

Something in wrong. And what is wrong is the truth of this matter has been lost. It will take the second coming of Jesus to know for sure, but by then, either you or I may be in trouble for not doing what Jesus commanded us to do,
whether he commanded us to be baptized or not.

If the truth were not lost, then you and I would agree on whether baptism is necessary for salvation or not. We would agree, but since we do not agree and there are many many beliefs about baptism, then that is proof that the truth has been lost.

Your "proof" is nonsense. Jesus didn't come to earth, live, die, and resurrect for his sheep only to add more rules for them. He came for the "least of these". Why are you burdening them with more requirements? Jesus chastized the Pharisees for adding man made rules and misinterpreting Scripture.

For the "baptism is necessary for salvation" line of thinking, you have to consider the "what if" scenarios. For example, two women are talking on a Friday afternoon. The first, not a Christian, shares her troubled marriage and how her husband beats her. The second, a Christian, listens and comforts her, eventually sharing the Gospel with the first. The first readily accepts it and they pray together for the first to receive Jesus. The first is overcome with joy as she recieves the Holy Spirit. The second invites the first to church on Sunday to get baptized. The first goes home, gets beat up and dies at the hands of her husband.

She was not baptized before she dies. Is she saved? The "necessary for salvation" crowd, if they stick to their ideology, would have to say no, since she wasn't baptized. BUT, they could say, God knew the intent of her heart and would save her anyway. That begs the question - if God knows the intent of our hearts (which Scripture says He does), why is baptism necessary when His grace would cover such a scenario?

And that's the problem with "baptism is necessary for salvation" - if there can be exceptions to the "necessary" rule, why is that the rule? Why isn't the exception the rule? In my view, and supported by Scripture, the exception is the rule - God knows our hearts regardless if one has been baptized or not.

The mormons take it further and say that in the afterlife she would have an opportunity for baptism (by proxy or in actuality). That is contrary to Scripture as evidenced in Luke 16 with Lazarus and the rich man, as well as Hebrews 9:27 and elsewhere. There are no second chances once one dies in this life.

No truth has been lost by Christianity. The truth has only be distorted by the lds church and repackaged as their "restoration".
 
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dzheremi

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It is a sign of apostasy. The difference is that the Lord promised JS that these break offs would not amount anthing of significance and would not become a rival of the mother church which ended up in Salt Lake City Utah.

This has turned out to be true. There have been many persons that have apostatized from the LDS church, but none have amounted to anything that would rival Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City becomes stronger, and the break offs continue to be of no concern.

There are just under 16 million LDS in the entire world. That is dwarfed by the number of Anglicans in the world (at 85 million), which is roughly the same as the number of Oriental Orthodox in the world (at 86 million).

Sooo...what time can either Via Crucis or I expect you to turn up for liturgy, since that's apparently how the truth is manifest now?

More to the point, shouldn't we all be joining NYC Guy in the Roman Catholic Church, as it is unambiguously the single largest Church within Christianity, at almost 1.3 billion members?

Hmm...funny how you never see him argue that. Kinda makes you wonder, doesn't it? Or at least it should. :scratch:
 
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BigDaddy4

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It is a sign of apostasy. The difference is that the Lord promised JS that these break offs would not amount anthing of significance and would not become a rival of the mother church which ended up in Salt Lake City Utah.

This has turned out to be true. There have been many persons that have apostatized from the LDS church, but none have amounted to anything that would rival Salt Lake City. Salt Lake City becomes stronger, and the break offs continue to be of no concern.
Ironic how you can claim that for your church, but completely disregard what Jesus said about HIS church, that the gates of hell would not prevail. Historical facts are not on your apostasy side.
 
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Peter1000

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ViaCrucis says:
That is not a protest against the Catholic Church, that is not a rejection of the Catholic Church, that is not an abandonment of the Catholic Church, that is not the creation of a new church over and against or instead of the Catholic Church.
Lutherans have never ceased to be Catholics.

You are leaning way over backwards to make a point. You must not understand your history. Tens of thousands of your ancestors were persecuted, killed, tortured, and exhiled because they no longer wanted to be in subjection to the tyranical, and satanic ecclesiastic rule of the RC pope and his confederate cardinals.

So OK you did not reject or abandon the RC church, but your ancestors fought and died to be separate.

So OK you did not create a new church over and against or instead of the RC church. Tell you ancestors who fought and died to protect Luther from being burned to the stake alive for calling on the RC church to reform itself. I see that the church that they created had a different name with different governing principles and officers of the new church, different evangelical teaching methods, different litergy, different doctrines (especially to do with the sacrament of the Lords supper).

So you may feel different today, but your Protestant/Evangelical ancestors certainly stopped calling themselves Catholic, and they put their lives on the line for that conviction.

If I am wrong, I humbly apologize, but let me know where I am wrong. I know you are proud of your heritage as a Protestant, so it is really interesting to me that you would make such a statement as this.

I look forward to the 500 year celebration of Luther nailing the 99 thesis to the Catholic cathedral doors. That was a remarkable day in Christian history.
 
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Peter1000

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Ironic how you can claim that for your church, but completely disregard what Jesus said about HIS church, that the gates of hell would not prevail. Historical facts are not on your apostasy side.
I can claim that for LDS church, because it is true.
 
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dzheremi

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Things are not true just because you say they are, Peter. You cannot show that the Church has been 'taken from the earth' or whatever the exact wording is in your religion's writings, only that you believe it to be so. Nobody should or can deny you that belief, but that is different from proving it to be so, particularly in the context where the preexisting churches can show living lines of bishops going back to the apostles via whatever line they wish to emphasize (for most Western Christian sects, I would imagine it is somehow argued via their relation to Rome and its traditional founding by St. Peter, while for the Eastern churches it may be through whichever apostle/s came to a particular land: St. Mark for the Egyptians, Sts. Peter and Paul for the Syrians and Greek Antiochians, St. Thomas for the Indians, etc).

And even if you don't take the traditional accounts at face value (which would make sense; why would you, when you are trying to prove the opposite point), there's still the problem that the written record extends so far back into history as to make the tradition more plausible than the alternative theory cooked up 1800 years later with no backing whatsoever outside of the ideological motivation of the clearly self-interested restorationist sects or religions. Like the written tradition concerning the Catechetical School of Alexandria dates back to the mid-2nd century, as do some of the earlier bilingual Coptic-Greek papyrus fragments containing the Gospels in the Bodmer collection (and there are more recent discoveries that push the advent of Christianity in Egypt back even further, though they are new enough to not be uncontroversially accepted, since they're still being studied). These things would be so even if nobody believed in the traditional account of the founding of Christianity in a particular place, so the restorationist is stuck with the following quandry: if there is such a "great apostasy" that is supposedly a real historical event, then why does the actual historical record not support it at all, but instead support instead the exact opposite position? Why are there the epistles of the apostolic fathers, and their children the early Church fathers? Why is there the Didache, and following it (and clearly modeled on it) the Didascalia Apostolorum? And why are these likewise mentioned by the fathers in such a way as to disprove every late comer who tries to heap doubt upon the historical reality of our faith? Why does St. Justin Martyr in the mid-2nd century argue for the LXX, and why do the Eastern churches still use that as their standard OT to this day? Why do the core of the Anaphoras attributed to St. Basil -- one of the Cappadocian fathers of the fourth century -- actually date back to the fourth century?

In other words, whether or not you or your religion believe that the Christian Church apostasized is immaterial in light of the fact that we have actual history on our side, which you have absolutely no answer for but to maintain in the face of all Christian history (most of which is dealt with by secular historians, I should say, so it's not a matter of whether or not anyone believes in their contents -- only that they are there/they actually exist as we have always said that they do) an opposing opinion based on nothing but your wish that it should be so in order to validate your own religion which has no history behind it. None whatsoever.

Until you can answer for this vast disparity between your position and the Christian position, your religion's idea of an unproven and unprovable "Great Apostasy" will be nothing more than the wishful thinking of a pompous, delusional, religiously illiterate malcontent, no matter how many have been sadly duped into following him.
 
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