What Does Universal Salvation Mean?

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Rajni

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That is good to know. Why are you convinced that all will be saved in the end?
Well, I originally wasn't looking to be convinced of it and I don't even think I knew at the time that it was a thing. But what started that ball rolling for me was a verse that I'd seen hundreds of times before jumping out at me in a way I couldn't just ignore that time around, 1 Corinthians 15:22. It was the launch-pad that sent me reading up on universal redemption and becoming a believer in it.

Just like any speculation on anything dealing with our post-mortem situation, however, it's not something I can prove beyond faith.

The more I've debated others about it, the more convinced I've become that the bible is a cleverly-designed Rorschach test. Different types of salvation can be read into it, and though I see it clearly promising universal redemption, the next guy will see it clearly promising limited redemption. Years and years and years of debating this has brought me to that conclusion.

At this point, it would be like arguing with someone over an ink-blot test. :D
 
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ByTheSpirit

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Anymore people will throw the universalist label out there as a last resort for an indefensible position. Really is sad that we as Christians can't handle discussions like grown ups, like children of God without getting all bent out of shape and resort to name calling.

Happened to me in another thread just today even
 
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disciple1

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In my last thread, because of comments by some others, I was accused of believing in Universal Salvation. As I understand the term, I categorically do not believe that everyone will be saved regardless of their response to Christ. I believe that Christ died for all mankind, taking the sins of all the world upon himself, but we still have to accept or reject that gift by believing the Gospel.

However, to be honest, I have never really researched what people believe who declare Universal Salvation. So I am inviting all those who believe it to show me why you believe it.

I am not setting this up as a bait to convince you otherwise. But I will honestly disagree or agree depending on what is said. Please let me know why you believe in Universal Salvation. Thank you.
No one has done much to be saved, what about this.
Romans chapter 11 verse 32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
 
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Lazarus Short

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As I think I have related on other threads here, I was raised as a Southern Baptist, joined the SDA church for a few years, and eventually came across the Salvation of All. It was a trilemma: Heaven & Hell, Heaven & annihilation or Heaven for all? In time, I decided to treat the three positions as theories, and see which one fit the data (Biblical text) best. I did find points (data points?) for theories one and two, but overall, to me at least, the Salvation of All (I have leaned to avoid "Universalism" because it brings up the Unitarian-Universalists) best explained what I found in the Bible - WITH THE FOLLOWING CAVEAT. To see what was really going on, I had to pay attention to my Bible's center-column references, look things up in my Concordances, look up words in my Oxford English Dictionary, consult interlinear texts, and on and on. I took notes too, which have become a 217-page book. I'm not fond of "proof texts," preferring the whole Word of God, and thus my conclusions depend on having read every book, every chapter and every verse of the Bible. I will share my first clue, Genesis 1:1. You all know it, but have you noticed that God never claimed to have created Hell? Not there, not in the first chapter of John's Gospel, not in the many places where "heaven and earth" are paired together - without Hell.

My observation is that believers in ECT have much more to overlook in the Bible than believers in the Salvation of All. I have much more that I can say on the subject, but this will do for now.
 
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RaymondG

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I personally believe this view is worth noting because The bible states that It is God's will that none be lost and that it is God's will that all come to repentance. The religious always say "If it's the lord's will" after almost every statement....and also when they discuss asking God for things or the reason we dont get what we ask for (We asked outside of the will....). So If God's will is so important in those cases....why isnt His will about the lost, important? If you say "It is God's will, but man messes it up" then you shouldn't mention "if it's God's will" ever again.....because man's will can usurp God's...........so "If it's Mans will (or My will)" would be more appropriate.

Also.....we believe that a single action of one man Adam, affected all mankind after whether they wanted it to or not. It is hard (for me at least) to say that the single action of Jesus was less affective.
 
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RC1970

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Thank you. Please explain further.
The concept of universal salvation is an ancient heresy. No one in the Bible talked about the reality of hell, and its perpetuation, more then Jesus. It's indisputable.

The concept of universal atonement, that Jesus did for everyone, is also a misnomer. Jesus died only for believers as He said in John chapter ten. He laid down His life for His sheep. Read the whole chapter and see how Jesus describes His sheep. They are not the whole world.

If Jesus had died for the whole world, then the whole world would be saved, because that is what an "atonement" does, it saves people.
 
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Lazarus Short

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No one in the Bible talked about the reality of hell, and its perpetuation, more then Jesus. It's indisputable.

I first heard that assertion a few years ago, and then "everybody" was saying it. My own doubts grew, until I opened my Bible and counted and dug. As ever, I found that all of Jesus' "Hell" references were mis-translations of "hades" and "gehenna". Hades was the best Greek word or the Hebrew "sheol," and "gehanna" was a place in the real world (and whether it was a city dump in Jesus' time is not relevant). My findings are that Jesus' focus was on the Kingdom of Heaven, not Hell. Let's put paid to that little red herring, shall we?
 
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Deadworm

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As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have served as an informal advisor on a PhD thesis on biblical universalism. So I'm profoundly interested in this subject. The Bible teaches the God is Love, that is, His essence expresses love. The Bible repeatedly insists that God wants to save everyone, and that desire raises these 3 batches of questions:

(1) Why assume that God stops loving the unsaved after they die? And if He continues to love them, why wouldn't He create opportunities to respond to His grace and be transformed by it? In other words, why would a loving God give up on anyone?

(2) Is famed Christian author, C. S. Lewis right to claim, "The gates of Hell are locked from the inside." In other words, sinners remain in Hell because that's where they belong based on the biblical principle like attracts like. But if and when they are ready for spiritual transformation and read to make godly choices, God is available to show mercy by His grace. Or why isn't He?

(3) How should we interpret all the NT texts that envisage all the dead, including the wicked dead, worshiping God and acknowledging the Lordship of Christ in heaven?
Similarly, how should we interpret all the NT texts that imply an intermediate state for the unrighteous dead from which they can be retrieved and saved?

I may either start my own thread on these texts or join another thread on this topic.
 
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66/40

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No the case isn't closed. If you don't want to participate then don't. There isn't now and never has been a valid reason not to discuss any and all matters relating to Christianity.
But "universalism" is NOT a part of historic Christianity. It's like saying that to deny the Trinity is part of Christianity, when in reality it is NOT.

Remember what Paul said about this very same thing pertaining to "derailing" what is truth and substituting it for a lie:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIV). 3-For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4-They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 (NIV)
13-For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14-And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.
 
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66/40

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Because many more born again believers embrace this and I want to understand why.
I think they embrace this false dichotomy because they do not grasp nor understand the proper art and science of biblical interpretation as it pertains to the historic Christian faith.

Unless Christians learn the art and science of textural criticism themselves, their discernment for the biblical account of reality will forever permit and tolerate the counterfeits that claim themselves to be "Christian," to go undetected.

Clearly if one contradicts essential Christian doctrine, by entertaining such dogmas such as "universalism," or "universal salvation," then you've not only blurred but obliterated the line of demarcation between the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of the cults.
 
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RaymondG

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I think they embrace this false dichotomy because they do not grasp nor understand the proper art and science of biblical interpretation as it pertains to the historic Christian faith.

Unless Christians learn the art and science of textural criticism themselves, their discernment for the biblical account of reality will forever permit and tolerate the counterfeits that claim themselves to be "Christian," to go undetected.

Clearly if one contradicts essential Christian doctrine, by entertaining such dogmas such as "universalism," or "universal salvation," then you've not only blurred but obliterated the line of demarcation between the Kingdom of Christ and the kingdom of the cults.
How can you say what is wrong and what is true until you have reached your destination?
 
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Lazarus Short

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But "universalism" is NOT a part of historic Christianity. It's like saying that to deny the Trinity is part of Christianity, when in reality it is NOT.

Remember what Paul said about this very same thing pertaining to "derailing" what is truth and substituting it for a lie:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 (NIV). 3-For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4-They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

2 Corinthians 11:13-14 (NIV)
13-For such people are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14-And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light.

These verses from an apostle who never wrote of Hell - I checked.
 
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RC1970

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I first heard that assertion a few years ago, and then "everybody" was saying it. My own doubts grew, until I opened my Bible and counted and dug. As ever, I found that all of Jesus' "Hell" references were mis-translations of "hades" and "gehenna". Hades was the best Greek word or the Hebrew "sheol," and "gehanna" was a place in the real world (and whether it was a city dump in Jesus' time is not relevant). My findings are that Jesus' focus was on the Kingdom of Heaven, not Hell. Let's put paid to that little red herring, shall we?
Sure, whatever makes you feel better. Just redefine some words, ignore a few things, add in some wishful thinking and SHAZAM, we're all in heaven.

Too funny. :D
 
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jeffinjapan

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The French philosopher Alain Badiou has written a fantastic book, Saint Paul: The Foundation of Universalism which lays out a very convincing case that THE Saint Paul was indeed a Universalist.

The erudite Professor Ilaria Ramelli has written her tome The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis where she lays out in detail that universal reconciliation was a common belief in the ancient Church and she lists a large number of Saints in the Church who were universalist.

For those who like proof-texting to prove a point, the number of scripture versus that seem to point to universalism far out number those versus that seem to point to eternal conscious torment.

I would recommend going here Readings in Universalism for a list of books written by Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox, theologians, and philosophers who all present their case using scripture and logic for universalism.

I grew up in a hell, fire, and brimstone Southern Baptist Church so I understand the paralyzing fear that a belief in everlasting hell can cause. And I understand how hard it can be to believe that maybe what we have grown up believing about God and hell is wrong.

But if you have an open mind and delve into the topic and read a few of the books that I have suggested and to read scripture through the universalist lens, then you can experience the liberation of being a Christian based on love and not fear.
 
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Light of the East

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So do you believe in universal salvation? Again, from what little I understand, if all will be saved in the end, why should you preach the Gospel?

To keep people from suffering in hell, to bring them to the joy of salvation in this lifetime, to save them from the ravages of sin, both on themselves and the world around them, and to make them subjects of the King of kings.

Good enough?
 
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Light of the East

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The concept of universal salvation is an ancient heresy. No one in the Bible talked about the reality of hell, and its perpetuation, more then Jesus. It's indisputable.

The concept of universal atonement, that Jesus did for everyone, is also a misnomer. Jesus died only for believers as He said in John chapter ten. He laid down His life for His sheep. Read the whole chapter and see how Jesus describes His sheep. They are not the whole world.

If Jesus had died for the whole world, then the whole world would be saved, because that is what an "atonement" does, it saves people.


It is not only disputable, it is not in the Bible at all. You have to trash the Greek to make eternal hell work, which is exactly what Augustine did, being that he not only did not know Greek, but actually hated the study of the language. Yet that is the original language of the Scriptures. Now if God intended the Scriptures to be a sure guide for us, then He certainly didn't make ECT very clear in them.

All the passages which are used to try to promote ECT rely on the idea of a single word "eternal" and the understanding that it is given. But the word in Greek "aionios" doesn't mean that at all.

Answer me this question, sir, since you are so dern sure that Jesus taught ECT. There is nothing - absolutely nothing - in the Jewish religion and the Hebrew scriptures which speaks about an eternal place of burning torment. To this day, the Jews do not speak of it. They spoke of the grave - Sheol - as the place where men went after death.

So if Jesus was a faithful Jew, and as a faithful and orthodox Jew, would have gone along with the teaching of the Jewish religion - where do you get the idea that He would have preached ECT?

I be waitin'......

PS.....Scripture states in Romans 5:18 that Christ's death gives salvation to all, just as Adam's sin gave death to all. You need to jump over that one.
 
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jeffinjapan

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So do you believe in universal salvation? Again, from what little I understand, if all will be saved in the end, why should you preach the Gospel?
So, you believe the PRIMARY purpose of the Gospel is to keep humanity from going to hell?
 
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How can you say what is wrong and what is true until you have reached your destination?
Because BEFORE we reach that "destination" you're referring to, God tells us that the Bible (His words) is used to teach, rebuke, correct and training us all NOW (the present) in righteousness:

2 Timothy 3:16 (NIV)
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

God tells us that human wisdom is inferior to God's:

1 Corinthians 2:5 (NIV)
so that your faith might not rest on human wisdom, but on God's power.

So the true Christian trusts the Bible and we don't need to wait for the "final destination" to arrive before having that light bulb going "on" in our heads in order to understand God's plan for us. God has already told us within the pages of scripture what our "final destination" will be.

The Bible was WRITTEN for us and all generation NOW so that we may know the truth BEFORE we succumb to the grave:

John 20:31 (NIV-1984)
But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Jesus also said:

Matthew 24:35 (NIV)
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Bible does not yield its treasures to the lazy. Read it before you die and you'll know what to expect to enter His Heavenly Kingdom, if you so choose.
 
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dqhall

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In my last thread, because of comments by some others, I was accused of believing in Universal Salvation. As I understand the term, I categorically do not believe that everyone will be saved regardless of their response to Christ. I believe that Christ died for all mankind, taking the sins of all the world upon himself, but we still have to accept or reject that gift by believing the Gospel.

However, to be honest, I have never really researched what people believe who declare Universal Salvation. So I am inviting all those who believe it to show me why you believe it.

I am not setting this up as a bait to convince you otherwise. But I will honestly disagree or agree depending on what is said. Please let me know why you believe in Universal Salvation. Thank you.
God sends the blessings of sunlight and rain to the good and the evil:

Matthew 5 (WEB) 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust.

God's mercy and benevolence should not be mistaken for eternal salvation to all. Some are at war with Yahweh (Psalm 37:20). Like flowers that grow upon Israeli hillsides after the winter rains, they will wither like flowers do during the onset of the Israeli dry summer heat.

Riches do not last forever. You can not take it with you when you go. Forgive who ever you can.

Like a merchant who is looking for the best pearl in the marketplace for a reasonable price, God will be saving a few good people.
 
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