My Morris Challenge

[Strathos]

It's sad that others can't see that.

Including all of the Christian geocentrists

 

[Kylie]

It's sad that others can't see that.

And it also means that asking the sun to stay still is meaningless in this case, because the apparent movement is caused by the earth's rotation.

It would be like me telling you to stay still and stop moving if you were standing in the corner of the room while I spun around in circles on my swivel chair. You'd just say, "Kylie, if you want me to be still, stop swiveling!"

 

[AV1611VET]

And it also means that asking the sun to stay still is meaningless in this case, because the apparent movement is caused by the earth's rotation.

It would be like me telling you to stay still and stop moving if you were standing in the corner of the room while I spun around in circles on my swivel chair. You'd just say, "Kylie, if you want me to be still, stop swiveling!"

This is the way I see it.

Joshua, who did not know how the solar system is configured -- and may have even been geocentric himself -- asked the LORD to stop the sun and the moon.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Whereupon God stopped the rotation of the earth.

 

[TLK Valentine]

This is the way I see it.

Joshua, who did not know how the solar system is configured -- and may have even been geocentric himself -- asked the LORD to stop the sun and the moon.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Whereupon God stopped the rotation of the earth.

And God did this so that Joshua could slaughter more men, women, and children.

 

[AV1611VET]

Joshua 10:5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together, and went up, they and all their hosts, and encamped before Gibeon, and made war against it.

And God did this so that Joshua could slaughter more men, women, and children.

No -- He was expecting Joshua to surrender to the Amorites, so the Amorites could slaughter the Israelites.

 

[Kylie]

This is the way I see it.

Joshua, who did not know how the solar system is configured -- and may have even been geocentric himself -- asked the LORD to stop the sun and the moon.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Whereupon God stopped the rotation of the earth.

But the book clearly says that the sun's movement stopped, not that the Earth's movement stopped. The whole passage suggests that the writer thought that the apparent movement of the sun across the sky is caused by the sun actually moving across the sky, not the Earth's rotation. Not what I'd expect from a book inspired by God (or whatever you want to call it). After all, if misinformation like this can get through, who knows what other misinformation is in the Bible as well?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Joshua 10:5 Therefore the five kings of the Amorites, the king of Jerusalem, the king of Hebron, the king of Jarmuth, the king of Lachish, the king of Eglon, gathered themselves together, and went up, they and all their hosts, and encamped before Gibeon, and made war against it.

No -- He was expecting Joshua to surrender to the Amorites, so the Amorites could slaughter the Israelites.

Well, the Israelites were invading Amorite lands... folks tend to frown on that sort of thing

 

[Kylie]

No response to my last post, AV? Or do you think God dumbs down what he said to old fashioned people so they could understand it.

 

[AV1611VET]

No response to my last post, AV? Or do you think God dumbs down what he said to old fashioned people so they could understand it.

For the second time:

This is the way I see it.

Joshua, who did not know how the solar system is configured -- and may have even been geocentric himself -- asked the LORD to stop the sun and the moon.

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

Whereupon God stopped the rotation of the earth.

Why would God have Joshua write something Joshua didn't say?

If Joshua was geocentric, he would have asked God to stop the sun and the moon.

But God knew what he meant ...

1 Samuel 16:7b ... for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

... and stopped the rotation of the earth.

 

[AV1611VET]

No response to my last post, KTS?

 

[Kylie]

Why would God have Joshua write something Joshua didn't say?

If Joshua was geocentric, he would have asked God to stop the sun and the moon.

But God knew what he meant ...

1 Samuel 16:7b ... for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.

... and stopped the rotation of the earth.

So God was doing it just to keep up appearances? "Oh, they speak as though the sun is the thing moving, not the Earth, so I'll speak the same way." So, like I said, God dumbs down what he said to old fashioned people so they could understand it.

 

[AV1611VET]

So, like I said, God dumbs down what he said to old fashioned people so they could understand it.

Then why don't modern day educatees understand it?

 

[Radrook]

1. I'm disappointed that your Morris challenge wasn't about Morris the cat.

2. It isn't that a scientist can't speak outside his field of expertise, it's that when they do, they are speaking as a layperson, not an expert. For example, Stephen Hawking might write about the French renaissance. His writing on the subject should bear the same scrutiny as Mike, my plumber.

With those two notes, my answer to your challenge:


The problem is 2 fold:
1. Relative motion need not assume an arbitrary frame of zero motion
2. The rotation of earth is not a "motion" in that sense of the word, but rather an acceleration. Zero acceleration is a meaningful statement. Changes in acceleration are measurable and have an impact regardless of the inertial reference frame.

Isaac Asimov was a Chemist and wrote extensively concerning astronomy and other fields of science and his writings are considered valuable.

Isaac Asimov
NONFICTION
General Science
31 Words of Science, and the History Behind
Them Houghton Mifflin 1959
36 Breakthroughs in Science Houghton Mifflin 1960
39 The Intelligent Man's Guide to Science Basic Books 1960
61 Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of
Science and Technology, 1st Ed. Doubleday 1964
65 The New Intelligent Man's Guide to
Science Basic Books 1965
97 Twentieth Century Discovery Doubleday 1969
102 Great Ideas of Science Houghton Mifflin 1969
118 Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of
Science and Technology, New Rev. Ed. Doubleday 1972
120 Asimov's Guide to Science Basic Books 1972
122 More Words of Science Houghton Mifflin 1972
128 Ginn Science Program, Intermediate
Level A Ginn 1972
129 Ginn Science Program, Intermediate
Level C Ginn 1972
132 Ginn Science Program, Intermediate
Level B Ginn 1972
140 Ginn Science Program, Advanced Level A Ginn 1973
141 Ginn Science Program, Advanced Level B Ginn 1973
143 Please Explain Houghton Mifflin 1973
207 A Choice of Catastrophes Simon & Schuster 1979
252 Exploring the Earth and the Cosmos Crown 1982
257 Asimov's Biographical Encyclopedia of
Science and Technology, 2nd Rev. Ed. Doubleday 1982
274 The Measure of the Universe Harper & Row 1983
309 Asimov's New Guide to Science Basic Books 1984
370 Beginnings: The Story of Origins -
of Mankind, Life, the Earth, the
Universe Walker 1987
431 Asimov's Chronology of Science and
Discovery Harper & Row 1989
Our Angry Earth: a Ticking Time Bomb [33] Tor 1991
Why Do We Have Different Seasons? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Is Our Planet Warming Up? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Why Is the Air Dirty? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Why Are Whales Vanishing? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Where Does Garbage Go? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
What Causes Acid Rain? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Why Are Some Beaches Oily? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1992
Why Are Animals Endangered? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1992
What's Happening to the Ozone Layer? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1993
Why Are the Rain Forests Vanishing? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1992
Why Does Litter Cause Problems? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1992

Mathematics
32 Realm of Numbers Houghton Mifflin 1959
35 Realm of Measure Houghton Mifflin 1960
42 Realm of Algebra Houghton Mifflin 1961
57 Quick and Easy Math Houghton Mifflin 1964
66 An Easy Introduction to the Slide Rule Houghton Mifflin 1965
142 How Did We Find Out About Numbers? Walker 1973
423 History of Mathematics (a chart) Carolina Biological Suppls. 1989

Astronomy
30 The Clock We Live On Abelard-Schuman 1959
34 The Kingdom of the Sun Abelard-Schuman 1960
37 Satellites in Outer Space Random House 1960
40 The Double Planet Abelard-Schuman 1960
59 Planets For Man [9] Random House 1964
77 The Universe: From Flat Earth to Quasar Walker 1966
79 The Moon Follet 1967
80 Environments Out There Scholastic/Abelard-Schuman 1967
84 To the Ends of the Universe Walker 1967
85 Mars Follet 1967
89 Stars Follet 1968
90 Galaxies Follet 1968
101 ABC's of Space Walker 1969
111 What Makes the Sun Shine? Little, Brown & Co. 1971
134 Comets and Meteors Follet 1973
135 The Sun Follet 1973
139 Jupiter, the Largest Planet Lothrop, Lee, & Shepard 1973
152 Our World in Space New York Graphic Society 1974
160 The Solar System Follet 1975
162 How Did We Find Out About Comets? Walker 1975
165 Eyes on the Universe: A History of the
Telescope Houghton Mifflin 1975
179 Alpha Centauri, the Nearest Star Lothrop, Lee, & Shepard 1976
182 The Collapsing Universe: The Story of
Black Holes Walker 1977
184 How Did We Find Out About Outer Space? Walker 1977
188 Mars, the Red Planet Lothrop, Lee, & Shepard 1977
197 How Did We Find Out About Black Holes? Walker 1978
199 Saturn and Beyond Lothrop, Lee, & Shepard 1979
203 Extraterrestrial Civilizations Crown 1979
228 Venus, Near Neighbor of the Sun Lothrop, Lee, & Shepard 1981
232 Visions of the Universe The Cosmos Store 1981
265 How Did We Find Out About the Universe? Walker 1982
313 Asimov's Guide to Halley's Comet Walker 1985
317 The Exploding Suns: The Secrets of the
Supernovas E. P. Dutton 1985
359 How Did We Find Out About Sunshine? Walker 1987
369 Did Comets Kill the Dinosaurs? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1987
381 The Asteroids Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
382 The Earth's Moon Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
383 Mars: Our Mysterious Neighbor Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
384 Our Milky Way and Other Galaxies Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
385 Quasars, Pulsars, and Black Holes Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
386 Rockets, Probes, and Satellites Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
387 Our Solar System Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
388 The Sun Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
389 Uranus: The Sideways Planet Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
398 Saturn: The Ringed Beauty Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
399 How Was the Universe Born? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
400 Earth: Our Home Base Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
401 Ancient Astronomy Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
402 Unidentified Flying Objects Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
403 Space Spotter's Guide Gareth Stevens, Inc 1988
415 Is There Life On Other Planets? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
416 Science Fiction, Science Fact Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
417 Mercury: The Quick Planet Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
418 Space Garbage Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
419 Jupiter: The Spotted Giant Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
420 The Birth and Death of Stars Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
424 Think About Space: Where Have We Been
and Where Are We Going? [30] Walker 1989
438 Mythology and the Universe Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
439 Colonizing the Planets and the Stars Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
440 Astronomy Today Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
441 Pluto: A Double Planet? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
442 Piloted Space Flights Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
443 Comets and Meteors Gareth Stevens, Inc 1989
452 Neptune: The Farthest Giant Gareth Stevens, Inc 1990
453 Venus: A Shrouded Mystery Gareth Stevens, Inc 1990
454 The World's Space Programs Gareth Stevens, Inc 1990
463 How Did We Find Out About Neptune? Walker 1990
464 How Did We Find Out About Pluto? Walker 1991
What is a Shooting Star? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Why Do Stars Twinkle? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Why Does the Moon Change Shape? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
What is an Eclipse? Gareth Stevens, Inc 1991
Isaac Asimov's Guide to Earth and Space Random House 1991
The Future in Space Gareth Stevens, Inc 1993

Earth Sciences
46 Words on the Map Houghton Mifflin 1962
107 ABC's of the Ocean Walker 1970
117 ABC's of the Earth Walker 1971
133 How Did We Find Out the Earth Is Round? Walker 1973
168 The Ends of the Earth: The Polar Regions
of the World Weybright & Talley 1975
194 How Did We Find Out About Earthquakes? Walker 1978
211 How Did We Find Out About Antarctica? Walker 1979
215 How Did We Find Out About Oil? Walker 1980
223 How Did We Find Out About Coal? Walker 1980
231 How Did We Find Out About Volcanoes? Walker 1981
320 How Did We Find Out About the Atmosphere? Walker 1985

Chemistry and Biochemistry
8 Biochemistry and Human Metabolism [3] Williams & Wilkins 1952
13 The Chemicals of Life: Enzymes,
Vitamins, and Hormones Abelard-Schuman 1954
18 Chemistry and Human Health [5] McGraw-Hill 1956
22 Building Blocks of the Universe Abelard-Schuman 1957
25 The World of Carbon Abelard-Schuman 1958
27 The World of Nitrogen Abelard-Schuman 1958
43 Life and Energy Doubleday 1962
48 The Search For The Elements Basic Books 1962
50 The Genetic Code Orion Press 1963
62 A Short History of Chemistry Doubleday 1965
68 The Noble Gases Basic Books 1966
75 The Genetic Effects of Radiation [10] U.S. AEC 1966
95 Photosynthesis Basic Books 1969
158 How Did We Find Out About Vitamins? Walker 1974
335 How Did We Find Out About DNA? Walker 1985
432 How Did We Find Out About
Photosynthesis? Walker 1989

Physics
19 Inside The Atom Abelard-Schuman 1956
69 Inside The Atom (3rd revised edition) Abelard-Schuman 1966
70 The Neutrino: Ghost Particle of the Atom Doubleday 1966
72 Understanding Physics, Volume I Walker 1966
73 Understanding Physics, Volume II Walker 1966
74 Understanding Physics, Volume III Walker 1966
108 Light Follet 1970
123 Electricity and Man U.S. AEC 1972
131 Worlds Within Worlds U.S. AEC 1972
136 How Did We Find Out About Electricity? Walker 1973
169 How Did We Find Out About Energy? Walker 1975
173 How Did We Find Out About Atoms? Walker 1976
180 How Did We Find Out About Nuclear Power? Walker 1976
230 How Did We Find Out About Solar Power? Walker 1981
299 How Did We Find Out About Computers? Walker 1984
312 How Did We Find Out About Robots? Walker 1984
322 Robots, Machines In Man's Image [27] Harmony House 1985
343 How Did We Find Out About the Speed of
Light? Walker 1986
375 How Did We Find Out About
Superconductivity? Walker 1988
406 How Did We Find Out About Microwaves? Walker 1989
451 How Did We Find Out About Lasers? Walker 1990
466 Atom: Journey Across the Subatomic
Cosmos E. P. Dutton/Truman 1991

Biology
16 Races and People [4] Abelard-Schuman 1955
33 The Living River Abelard-Schuman 1960
38 The Wellsprings of Life Abelard-Schuman 1960
51 The Human Body: Its Structure and
Operation Houghton Mifflin 1963
55 The Human Brain: Its Capacities and
Functions Houghton Mifflin 1964
56 A Short History of Biology Natural History Press [8] 1964
124 ABC's of Ecology Walker 1972
145 How Did We Find Out About Dinosaurs? Walker 1973
153 How Did We Find Out About Germs? Walker 1974
204 How Did We Find Out About Our Human
Roots? Walker 1979
248 How Did We Find Out About Life In the
Deep Sea Walker 1982
254 How Did We Find Out About the Beginning
of Life? Walker 1982
280 How Did We Find Out About Genes? Walker 1983
356 How Did We Find Out About Blood? Walker 1987
368 How Did We Find Out About the Brain? Walker 1987
390* History of Biology (a chart) Carolina Biological Suppls. 1988
434 Little Treasury of Dinosaurs (5 book set) Outlet 1989
Giant Dinosaurs (vol. 1)
Armored Dinosaurs (vol. 2)
Small Dinosaurs (vol. 3)
Sea Reptiles and Flying Reptiles
(vol. 4)
Meat-Eating Dinosaurs and Horned
Dinosaurs (vol. 5)

Science Essay Collections
24 Only a Trillion Abelard-Schuman 1957
45 Fact and Fancy Doubleday 1962
53 View from a Height Doubleday 1963
58 Adding a Dimension Doubleday 1964
64 Of Time and Space and Other Things Doubleday 1965
78 From Earth to Heaven Doubleday 1966
83 Is Anyone There? Doubleday 1967
88 Science, Numbers, and I Doubleday 1968
103 The Solar System and Back Doubleday 1970
109 The Stars in Their Courses Doubleday 1971
119 The Left Hand of the Electron Doubleday 1972
138 Today and Tomorrow and... Doubleday 1973
144 The Tragedy of the Moon Abelard-Schuman 1973
148 Asimov on Astronomy Doubleday 1974
157 Asimov on Chemistry Doubleday 1974
159 Of Matters Great and Small Doubleday 1975
163 Science Past, Science Future Doubleday 1975
171 Asimov on Physics Doubleday 1976
175 The Planet That Wasn't Doubleday 1976
183 Asimov on Numbers Doubleday 1977
187 The Beginning and the End Doubleday 1977
193 Quasar, Quasar, Burning Bright Doubleday 1978
198 Life and Time Doubleday 1978
206 The Road to Infinity Doubleday 1979
237 The Sun Shines Bright Doubleday 1981
238 Change!: Seventy-one Glimpses of the
Future Houghton Mifflin 1981
266 Counting the Eons Doubleday 1983
272 The Roving Mind Prometheus Books 1983
290 X Stands for Unknown Doubleday 1984
326 The Subatomic Monster Doubleday 1985
341 The Dangers of Intelligence and Other
Science Essays Houghton Mifflin 1986
354 Far as Human Eye Could See Doubleday 1987
357 Past, Present, and Future Prometheus Books 1987
378 The Relativity of Wrong Doubleday 1988
426 The Tyrannosaurus Prescription: and One
Hundred Other Science Essays Prometheus Books 1989
427 Asimov On Science: A 30 Year
Retrospective 1959-1989 Doubleday 1989
447 Frontiers: new discoveries about man and
his planet, outer space and the
universe E. P. Dutton/Truman 1990
449 Out of the Everywhere Doubleday 1990
462 The Secret of the Universe Doubleday 1991
Frontiers II: more recent discoveries
about life, Earth, space, and the
universe [21] E. P. Dutton/Truman 1993

 

[Kylie]

Then why don't modern day educatees understand it?

Because it was all fiction to begin with, it doesn't have any relevance to actual reality and the only reason that it seems to be dumbed down from what an all-knowing deity would know is because it was written by people who had no idea what they were talking about.

 

[AV1611VET]

Because it was all fiction to begin with, it doesn't have any relevance to actual reality and the only reason that it seems to be dumbed down from what an all-knowing deity would know is because it was written by people who had no idea what they were talking about.

But you said God dumbed it down, and I took your word for it.

Now you're saying people did it because they didn't know what they were talking about.

How is it that educatees today can't figure out what they were ignorantly saying?

For example, Jesus said He was the way, the truth, and the life.

Give me your best educated guess as to what He was saying ... or perhaps it's you who are ignorant and not them?

 

[Goonie]

Clicked on this thread hoping it was a Morris dancing challenge, sorely disappointed.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Why would God have Joshua write something Joshua didn't say?

Who knows? I've heard He 'moves in mysterious ways', who are we to question? [/sunday school]

 

[Radrook]

Taking the passage in isolation, I would not say he was wrong. However, the bigger issue is the fact that in scripture the earth is created first and the sun and moon put into the firmament above the earth. This is clearly a geocentric model. In addition, no where in scripture is a heliocentric model implied. This is all consistent with what the writers would have understood at the time that GEN was written.

I also have two specific objections to the O.P.
1. I do not think the bible teaches geocentricism. Rather, it implies geocentricism.
2. I do not think that the scientific method is a valid tool for refuting the bible. It is a valid tool for refuting interpretations of the bible that seek to use scripture incorrectly to interpret what we see in nature.

You are conflating Earth Habitability Preparation days with creation of heavens then the Earth as clearly stated at the outset prior to the Earth Preparation for Habitability Days..

 

[Radrook]

Well, the Israelites were invading Amorite lands... folks tend to frown on that sort of thing

Canaanites were there illegally. So the landlord evicted them after serving eviction notice and their refusal to go.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Canaanites were there illegally. So the landlord evicted them after serving eviction notice and their refusal to go.

"Illegally" according to whom? Is there an actual law in place here, , or is more a case who last man standing makes the laws?