Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[EmSw]

Did I add to this most important fact of Christianity?

Revelation 5: NKJV

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:

“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
And to the Lamb, forever and ever!”

I am guessing you want to add a sacrifice to these passages.

 

[FreeGrace2]

DarthNeo said: ↑
I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

And is why "limited atonement" is absolutely the correct biblical teaching

The Bible says in plain language that Jesus Christ died for all. Not "all the elect", or any other way to communicate less than the human race.

2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

And verses that indicate the whole of humanity is included:
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent.

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

If one wants to argue that Christ died only for the elect, then Rom 5:6 claims that ONLY the elect are ungodly. Not everyone. But the T in TULIP is that mankind is totally depraved. That means everyone. So Rom 5:6 shows that Christ died for all the totally depraved ones.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst.

Who are sinners? All of humanity, not just the elect.

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.

"He will save His people from their sins".. Matthew 1:21.

Let's also remember the words of John:

John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

So, how would one reconcile Matt 1:21 with John 1:7? There is only 1 way. Please explain.

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." John 10:11.

Note that Jesus would give His life for THE sheep. Note that the words "THE sheep" occurs 9 times in chapter 10. But Jesus also used the words "My sheep", "other sheep of Mine", and those "not of My sheep".

So He plainly indicated in that context of ch 10 there were sheep that were His, and sheep that were not His. Yet, He said He would die for THE sheep, not just His sheep.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now that you know blood, a sacrifice, an offering, nor a lamb was needed for forgiveness of sins, we can rule out Jesus' death as a requirement for forgiveness of sins.

Then explain these words of Jesus:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." John 10:11.

 

[redleghunter]

Now that you know blood, a sacrifice, an offering, nor a lamb was needed for forgiveness of sins, we can rule out Jesus' death as a requirement for forgiveness of sins. Since you know human sacrifice is murder and an abomination to God, we can rule out His death as a sacrifice.

On the contrary I just provided evidence Christ did die for our sins and His Blood was shed for the remission of sins.

6 times I posted the evidence.

 

[MDC]

DarthNeo said: ↑
I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

The Bible says in plain language that Jesus Christ died for all. Not "all the elect", or any other way to communicate less than the human race.

2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

And verses that indicate the whole of humanity is included:
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent.

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

If one wants to argue that Christ died only for the elect, then Rom 5:6 claims that ONLY the elect are ungodly. Not everyone. But the T in TULIP is that mankind is totally depraved. That means everyone. So Rom 5:6 shows that Christ died for all the totally depraved ones.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst.

Who are sinners? All of humanity, not just the elect.

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.


Let's also remember the words of John:

John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

So, how would one reconcile Matt 1:21 with John 1:7? There is only 1 way. Please explain.



Note that Jesus would give His life for THE sheep. Note that the words "THE sheep" occurs 9 times in chapter 10. But Jesus also used the words "My sheep", "other sheep of Mine", and those "not of My sheep".

So He plainly indicated in that context of ch 10 there were sheep that were His, and sheep that were not His. Yet, He said He would die for THE sheep, not just His sheep.

I understand you push Arminian theology freegrace. But answer me this then. If Christ atoning work did no more for you than for the unsaved who will parish, what gives you confidence and assurance that you've been saved from your sins?

 

[redleghunter]

When will you believe God's word? The Passover was not for remission of sins. Please read the story before you listen to others or assume what it says. Now, for the third time, I will give you how sins are forgiven.

Please pay attention to how I presented the Passover. As a type of the Passover of Jesus Christ. Remission is indeed what "pass over" means.

Jesus said:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

I don't know how much more you need other than the direct words of Jesus Christ.

And again here:

Revelation 5: NKJV

8 Now when He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each having a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 9 And they sang a new song, saying:

“You are worthy to take the scroll,
And to open its seals;
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,
10 And have made us kings and priests to our God;
And we shall reign on the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:

“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

Here too:

Revelation 7: NKJV

14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”

So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore they are before the throne of God, and serve Him day and night in His temple. And He who sits on the throne will dwell among them. 16 They shall neither hunger anymore nor thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb who is in the midst of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to living fountains of waters. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”


Here also:

1 John 1: NKJV

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.

1 Peter 1: NKJV

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, for obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ:

Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

Hebrews 9: NKJV

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

16 For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives. 18 Therefore not even the first covenant was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water, scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, 20 saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God has commanded you.” 21 Then likewise he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And according to the law almost all things are purified with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no remission.

 

[redleghunter]

You are so much wanting to murder Jesus, you will find anything you think will bring this about.

Let me ask you, is laying down your life for your friends a sacrfice?

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

Yes Jesus was taking about Himself.

 

[redleghunter]

How about that? We not only have hearing the word and believing on Him Who sent Jesus, we also have doing good.

People don't like the 'doing good' part; it just doesn't agree with their earthly desires.

Who doesn't like "doing good?"

Jesus did not say do good and you pass from death to life.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

You said that Jesus died for ALL the sins of EVERYONE, did you not?

 

[redleghunter]

I am guessing you want to add a sacrifice to these passages.

No it's there. See "slain."

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hi JJ, yes, I agree, the way I said that is confusing. I meant that the outward call is not limited to God's elect alone, and in the Biblical sense of, "whosoever will may come", as well (not that all will hear, as the outward call is delivered by those with beautiful feet .. Romans 10:13-15, not by God directly).

I'm still not sure that I've conveyed my meaning properly, so I'll consider a better way to do that and get back to you (I would welcome any suggestions you may have, of course ).

Thanks for pointing out the problem!

--David

Got it, and I agree that His calling goes out to the "world". It's a very public declaration, so it is out there for anyone. Calvinists, such as I am, call that a, "well-meant offer", and moderate Calvinists, such as I am, believe in a well-meant offer, which means that the offer is real; however, no sinner outside of the saving work of the Spirit will accept the offer.

 

[Marvin Knox]

It is a shame. And not surprised at all that the MODS tolerate such.

I understand that they want to encourage dialog and open debate among Christians of somewhat differing views.

But there are people here who disregard the necessity of the shedding of blood and the atoning sacrifice of the Lord.

There are even many who out and out espouse different reiligions and even deny the existence of God.

There really should be a limit IMO.

Could you please explain how you reconcile unconditional election with unlimited atonement?

Yes.

Unconditional election has to do with God choosing before they even existed whom He will draw to the Son in irresistible grace and those He will leave in their own chosen darkness.

Unlimited atonement has to do with who He shed His blood for. He says very clearly that He shed it for everyone in the entire world and commands that the entire world believe on Him for salvation.

The big mystery, of course, is how He could sincerely weep over the fact that they won't come to Him and yet only enlighten some.

Of course that has to do with His having the right as the creator to have mercy on whom He chooses to have mercy and righteously pass others by.

Mysteries to be sure. But then His ways are not our ways. We are called upon to believe Him and not to judge Him.

If you are asking how He could have atoned for the sins of a person and yet that person not be saved -- we need look no farther than our own history.

We were enemies of God and under His wrath ourselves for some time after He had already atoned for our sins.

"....we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." Ephesians 2:3

Some go for 90 some years or more in that condition before they are saved. (That condition being that they have had their sins atoned for an yet are children of wrath.)

We have no right (via some well meaning but illogical constuct) to say that men could not be in that exact condition for eternity.

So called "limited atonement" is thus based on faulty logic.

If we are saying by "limited atonement" that only some will be saved in the end -- then we all agree on that (Calvinist and Arminian alike). But you and I, I hope, realize that that is not all that is being said in limited atonement.

 

[redleghunter]

What's a shame? That I do not believe in human sacrifice, thus murder, to be saved? That I don't believe God requires an abomination to forgive sin? It's a shame you do believe this.

You are making it sound like an abomination.

Jesus Christ fulfilled Isaiah 53:

Isaiah 53: KJV

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

 

[DarthNeo]

You said that Jesus died for ALL the sins of EVERYONE, did you not?

Yes I did, Jesus' death paid for EVERY sin ever committed, but those who do not have FAITH do not have their sins forgiven, they are still held accountable for them...

 

[redleghunter]

I understand you push Arminian theology freegrace. But answer me this then. If Christ atoning work did no more for you than for the unsaved who will parish, what gives you confidence and assurance that you've been saved from your sins?

Insightful.

I think on this matter Charles Spurgeon called it a Biblical paradox.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Yes I did, Jesus' death paid for EVERY sin ever committed, but those who do not have FAITH do not have their sins forgiven, they are still held accountable for them...

If He paid, then Hell is empty. God is just. He will not punish the same sin twice.

 

[DarthNeo]

If He paid, then Hell is empty. God is just. He will not punish the same sin twice.

Unless I have FAITH in Christ and the propitiation for my sin, it is not forgiven of me...

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Unless I have FAITH in Christ and the propitiation for my sin, it is not forgiven of me...

You said, "Jesus died FOR all sins". The word, "for" means in payment of in the context. If He died FOR a sin that sin is forgiven.

 

[GillDouglas]

DarthNeo said: ↑
I'm not saying everyone is saved, just those who have faith in what Christ did...

The Bible says in plain language that Jesus Christ died for all. Not "all the elect", or any other way to communicate less than the human race.

2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ's love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

And verses that indicate the whole of humanity is included:
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature.

John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent.

Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

If one wants to argue that Christ died only for the elect, then Rom 5:6 claims that ONLY the elect are ungodly. Not everyone. But the T in TULIP is that mankind is totally depraved. That means everyone. So Rom 5:6 shows that Christ died for all the totally depraved ones.

Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst.

Who are sinners? All of humanity, not just the elect.

1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.


Let's also remember the words of John:

John 1:11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him.

So, how would one reconcile Matt 1:21 with John 1:7? There is only 1 way. Please explain.



Note that Jesus would give His life for THE sheep. Note that the words "THE sheep" occurs 9 times in chapter 10. But Jesus also used the words "My sheep", "other sheep of Mine", and those "not of My sheep".

So He plainly indicated in that context of ch 10 there were sheep that were His, and sheep that were not His. Yet, He said He would die for THE sheep, not just His sheep.

Unlimited atonement would leave everybody in bondage to sin, because without the much needed grace in order change the unbelievers condition wouldn't occur. And the decisive act of faith that saves us wouldn’t be a gift bought by the blood of Jesus. Nobody would be grafted into the vine, because that only happens because they were purchased by the blood according to the new covenant.

On the other hand, definite (limited) atonement accomplishes more. It not only purchases a genuine offer to save all of God's people, but goes beyond the offer and actually accomplishes the triumph over unbelief and hardness of heart and brings to pass salvation and all the purposes of God that depend on. Thus preventing mans free will from trumping the will of a Sovereign God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Then explain these words of Jesus:
"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep." John 10:11."

You are so much wanting to murder Jesus, you will find anything you think will bring this about.

I see. You have no explanation. Figures.

Let me ask you, is laying down your life for your friends a sacrfice?

Yep.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

But thanks for demonstrating that your views aren't found in Scripture.