Limited vs unlimited atonement?

[EmSw]

Frankly that is not what he said.

It boils down to whether you view law observance justifies a sinner. None of the OT saints claimed to be perfect at abiding with the law.

If one truly believes we are justified by the law, then what was the purpose of The Son of God to come in human form to be crucified?

Hello redleg. I would like for you to show us where God said to be perfect at abiding with the law.

Say what? Many were just, or righteous in the OT. Where do you get there weren't? Read the OT; you will find the righteous within its pages.

The OT word for just is righteous and lawful. It also means justified and vindicated by God. Don't swallow what you have heard; study for yourself.

 

[redleghunter]

Hello redleg. I would like for you to show us where God said to be perfect at abiding with the law.

Say what? Many were just, or righteous in the OT. Where do you get there weren't? Read the OT; you will find the righteous within its pages.

The OT word for just is righteous and lawful. It also means justified and vindicated by God. Don't swallow what you have heard; study for yourself.

Ecclesiastes 7:King James Version (KJV)

20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.

Psalm 14: King James Version (KJV)

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Observing the above one must be perfect in following the law. Jesus said so, in big bold red letters.

Matthew 5: King James Version (KJV)

48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

 

[redleghunter]

Hello St. Worm. Why did the OT saints look 'ahead' to the Messiah for salvation? Was not salvation available during their lifetime? Did they not have a Savior during their lifetime?

Isaiah 43:11
I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior.

Isaiah 49:26
I will feed those who oppress you with their own flesh, and they shall be drunk with their own blood as with sweet wine. All flesh shall know that I, the Lord, am your Savior, and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

So tell us why they looked 'ahead' to the Messiah for salvation, when the Lord was their Savior and Redeemer? Could the Lord their Savior not save them during their lifetime?



Let me give you this verse again, from the OT -

Ezekiel 18:19
Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.

Please notice it says, 'Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live.'

Did God deceive us into thinking we can do what is lawful and keep all His statutes and observe them? Or, is it man deceiving us into thinking that we can't?

He not only is our Guide, but our Path, our Truth, our Life, our Redeemer, our Savior, our Master, our Teacher, our Light, our Lord, our Strength, and our King.



Atonement is forgiveness, and nothing from me. Forgiveness comes from repentance, turning from our sins, and turning to the Lord. Repentance and remission of sins has nothing to do with suffering and dying. Anyone, anytime, anywhere can repent.

kapporeth [t,roP;K], or the Mercy Seat...what was its significance in the Mosaic Law?

What did it foreshadow?

 

[redleghunter]

Try again, and this time answer the question. Show us where anyone KEEPING the law is sent to hell.

What are you considering "keeping the law?"

The moral law or all of it?

 

[EmSw]

What are you considering "keeping the law?"

The moral law or all of it?

That's easy.

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Any other questions?

Now let me ask you...do you want to enter life? Do you love Him? Are you a liar and the truth is not in you?

Do you want to tell us why you don't keep His commandments?

 

[redleghunter]

I think such a view rests on the notion that it was Christ's death that saves, even though there are no Scriptures to support that.

In fact, we have Scripture that says the opposite:
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

It by the power of His resurrection that we are saved.


.

The shed Blood of Christ is for the remission of sins:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[EmSw]

The shed Blood of Christ is for the remission of sins:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

Jesus said that before any blood was shed.

 

[redleghunter]

That's easy.

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Any other questions?

Now let me ask you...do you want to enter life? Do you love Him? Are you a liar and the truth is not in you?

You must keep the commandments perfectly if you think the commandments themselves save you.

Did you explore the context in which Jesus said "if you love Me" ?

The law reveals God's Holiness, Righteousness and Justice. Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. He was the Perfect sacrifice for sins and said so:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

The law exposes our sin and imperfections. Why? Because the law is the perfection of God revealed to mankind. Unless you believe we can become perfect as Jesus Christ was perfect on earth, I don't know why you preach people can be saved by following the law.

Jesus also told us His purpose:

John 12: KJV

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

What was the cause or purpose Jesus came unto "this hour?"

Was it to teach the law more clearly or as He said to shed His Blood for the remission of sins?

 

[redleghunter]

Jesus said that before any blood was shed.

Yes He was instructing His disciples of what would immediately come to pass. Jesus used direct metaphors quite often in his discourses.

That He was the Passover lamb, the Lamb of God who would deliver them from sin and death like the blood of the Exodus lamb delivered Israel from the judgement of the first born.

Exodus 12: NKJV

12 ‘For I will pass through the land of Egypt on that night, and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord. 13 Now the blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you are. And when I see the blood, I will pass over you; and the plague shall not be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

After Israel was delivered from from the plague by being "passed over" due to the blood on the houses, they departed for the wilderness. Then they were faced with Pharaohs armies chasing them. God parted the Red sea. Israel had to publicly display their faith in God to deliver them by walking across the dry sea floor of the Red Sea with two large walls of water to their left and right. This was their baptism.

After crossing they went back into the wilderness where they received the law before entering the Promised Land. God gave them the law. He promises in His new covenant to cause us to walk in His statutes and will fill us with His Spirit (Ezekiel 36).

Note, that the deliverance with the blood of a lamb in Exodus 12 was well before the law was given. God chose Israel, delivered them and then instructed them.

All types and shadows of what would come in Jesus Christ alone.

 

[EmSw]

You must keep the commandments perfectly if you think the commandments themselves save you.

What are you talking about keep 'perfectly'? Now you are adding to what the word of God says.

Did you explore the context in which Jesus said "if you love Me"?

Sure.

John 14
23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

If you don't love Him and obey His teaching, the Father will not make His home with you.

The law reveals God's Holiness, Righteousness and Justice. Jesus Christ is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form. He was the Perfect sacrifice for sins and said so:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

Nothing about a sacrifice in that passage. You so desperately want it there, you decided on your own to add it.

Why do so many people think physical things are spiritual things?

Now if we compare other passages which speak of remission of sins, we will know what Jesus is telling us.

Luke 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Jesus was speaking of repentance, not physical blood. Repentance is a spiritual act on man's part.

What is His blood?

John 6
53 Then Jesus said unto them, verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

Now we know how His blood gives us eternal life; we drink it. If you believe He is speaking of His physical blood, I say get your cup ready, go find His blood, and start drinking. If you don't physically drink His blood (as you suppose), you have no life in you.

The blood is speaking of truth Jesus gave us. Drinking His blood gives us eternal life, that is, appropriating His truth to ourselves. It is His truth which saves. And here is a truth Jesus gave us -

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

Is this a sacrifice? NO! No one was to drink the blood of a sacrifice...NEVER! Was a human sacrifice ever offered to God? NO! That was an abomination to God. You are trying to be saved by an abomination to God. Don't worry...you are not alone in offering an abomination to God.

The law exposes our sin and imperfections. Why? Because the law is the perfection of God revealed to mankind. Unless you believe we can become perfect as Jesus Christ was perfect on earth, I don't know why you preach people can be saved by following the law.

What are we to do when the law exposes our sin and imperfections? Let's take a physical example.

You drive down the highway and you see a sign that says, 'speed limit 55'. If you are going 65, yes it exposes your 'sin'. What should you do now that you know the law says 'speed limit 55'? Shouldn't you obey the law and drive 55? What will keep you from getting a ticket? Believing someone else kept this law? No! You will not get a ticket when YOU obey the law and do what it says. You stop disobeying the law.

Jesus also told us His purpose:

John 12: KJV

23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

What was the cause or purpose Jesus came unto "this hour?"

Was it to teach the law more clearly or as He said to shed His Blood for the remission of sins?

Well, read what it says in verse 23. For what cause did He come unto that hour? 'The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.'

He said nothing about shedding His blood for the remission of sins, nor a sacrifice. Here again, you have added to the Bible. However, He did say in verse 25 how a man keeps his life unto eternal life. Man is to lose HIS (not Jesus') life and hate it. Then we are to serve Him and follow Him.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You haven't shown anything. Nowhere, and I mean nowhere, will you find anyone going to hell for keeping the law.

Your claim is refuted from the Scriptures that refute your views.

People will be cast into the lake of fire for NOT having their names in the Book of Life. That means they never received eternal life. And Jesus was clear on how to have eternal life; to believe in Him for it.

 

[FreeGrace2]

That's easy.

Matthew 19:17
...but if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.

OK, prove that "enter into life" means gain eternal life.

John 14:15
If you love Me, keep My commandments.

Notice it says "if you love Me", not "if you want to be saved" or "if you want eternal life".

1 John 2:4
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

This is true for many believers. They don't have truth in them.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"I think such a view rests on the notion that it was Christ's death that saves, even though there are no Scriptures to support that.

In fact, we have Scripture that says the opposite:
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

It by the power of His resurrection that we are saved."

The shed Blood of Christ is for the remission of sins:

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

Is this a disagreement with Rom 4:25?

Aren't we saved by the power of His resurrection? Isn't that Paul's point in 1 Cor 15? That if Christ wasn't resurrected, our faith is in vain and we are to be most pitied?

 

[redleghunter]

What are you talking about keep 'perfectly'? Now you are adding to what the word of God says.

Not adding at all. At the end of His discourse in Matthew 5, Jesus said for us to be perfect as our Heavenly Father is perfect. It's right there as I posted earlier in big bold red letters.

As you present the path of one's salvation as law keeping, according to Matthew 5 you must keep it perfectly as the Father in Heaven is perfect.

The apostle James picks up on this as well:

James 2:10: King James Version (KJV)
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we go back to Leviticus 16 we see how God instructed Moses to atone for the sins of Israel. This was due to transgression of the law. In the New Covenant Jesus is this perfect sacrifice for sins. All of them.

Back to James. If one offends in one point of the law they are guilty of all.

In your theology how does one have their sins blotted out?

I just pointed out God's theology on blood atonement.

 

[redleghunter]

If you don't love Him and obey His teaching, the Father will not make His home with you.

This is true but you left out Jesus's conversation with Nicodemus in John 3. This is how God makes His home with us. Born Again.

Which is an action of God and not ourselves. As I poi Ted out in a previous post see Ezekiel 36. God will sprinkle us with water to make us clean and He will put His Spirit in us and cause us to walk in His statutes.

Where have we seen such an order of "events?" As I pointed out in another previous post look to Exodus as an example of how God called Israel, then delivered them, then instructed them.

Same "model" in the NT.

Your statements reference loving Jesus and following Him and doing what He says are all accurate. What you miss I believe is how He gets us there by His Sovereign Grace.

 

[redleghunter]

Nothing about a sacrifice in that passage. You so desperately want it there, you decided on your own to add it.

Why do so many people think physical things are spiritual things?

Yes sacrifice is there. The shedding of blood in the old covenant was done for a sacrifice for sins. See Exodus 12 and Leviticus 16.

God dealt with the physical to demonstrate spiritual realities. As Christ rose from the dead Bodily you cannot separate the two.

 

[redleghunter]

Now we know how His blood gives us eternal life; we drink it. If you believe He is speaking of His physical blood, I say get your cup ready, go find His blood, and start drinking. If you don't physically drink His blood (as you suppose), you have no life in you.

The blood is speaking of truth Jesus gave us. Drinking His blood gives us eternal life, that is, appropriating His truth to ourselves. It is His truth which saves

That's an eisegesis of the passages in the Bread of Life discourse (John 6). Meaning you took your entry argument of your theological stance and interpreted those passages accordingly.

It is true Jesus is not literally telling us to drink His physical blood and eat his physical flesh. He is applying once again a direct metaphor. However, Jesus is showing how His physical real body and blood will be the means to the spiritual truth.
Jesus said He must suffer and die.

Mark 8: KJV

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Luke 9: KJV

22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

Now we know this "must" was His crucifixion, death and resurrection bodily. Therefore, the physical body and blood of Jesus Christ was indeed sacrificed for us for the remission of sins as He said it would (Matthew 26:28).

Then after His resurrection and before His ascension Jesus emphasized the events in which the apostles were witnesses to and tells them to preach to all nations:

Luke 24: KJV

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 And ye are witnesses of these things.

And this is the same Gospel message the apostles faithfully preached.

1 Corinthians 15: KJV

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:

6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.

8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.

10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.

Notice where the apostle Paul says "according to the scriptures." Jesus Christ opened the minds of His disciples to the Scriptures. This would be the TaNaKh (OT).

What does the OT say about Messiah suffering and dying for our sins?

Isaiah 53: King James Version (KJV)

53 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

I think it is quite clear the above was 100% fulfilled in the Person of Jesus Christ Son of God.

 

[redleghunter]

You drive down the highway and you see a sign that says, 'speed limit 55'. If you are going 65, yes it exposes your 'sin'. What should you do now that you know the law says 'speed limit 55'? Shouldn't you obey the law and drive 55? What will keep you from getting a ticket? Believing someone else kept this law? No! You will not get a ticket when YOU obey the law and do what it says. You stop disobeying the law.

I think you have the cart before the horse.

Using your scenario, what if I was doing 55mph in a 25mph school zone, was pulled over and arrested? Then put in jail and not able to post bail? Then at my trial even though I am genuinely and sorrowful for my actions I still cannot pay the fine imposed on me which puts me in jail. Then a total stranger pays my fine without me asking, and I am set free and genuinely thankful to the man who paid my debt to the law.

The man tells me if I truly love him and appreciate his graceful act I will follow the posted speed limits. He then hands me a pair of glasses so I can see the signs better.

 

[redleghunter]

He said nothing about shedding His blood for the remission of sins, nor a sacrifice.

What exactly did happen to Jesus a week later after He triumphantly entered Jerusalem? What was "glorifying" modifying? It was His suffering, death and resurrection. See Isaiah 53 again.

And while in Jerusalem at the meal with His disciples, Jesus said,

For this is My blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. (Matthew 26:28)

 

[redleghunter]

I said this:
"I think such a view rests on the notion that it was Christ's death that saves, even though there are no Scriptures to support that.

In fact, we have Scripture that says the opposite:
Rom 4:25 - He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

It by the power of His resurrection that we are saved."

Is this a disagreement with Rom 4:25?

Aren't we saved by the power of His resurrection? Isn't that Paul's point in 1 Cor 15? That if Christ wasn't resurrected, our faith is in vain and we are to be most pitied?

Thank you for providing the context I missed or overlooked. Don't want to mix terms. I thought the conversation was what is the atonement for sins. Which I pointed out is the Blood of Christ.

Saved unto eternal life? You are correct in pointing out the resurrection.