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Jack Chick's View on Catholicism

MarysSon

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Luther when speaking of Revelation and James, did question apostolic authorship. However never deep sixed any NT books. His translation had 27 NT books.

I will point out I disagree with Luther's reasoning. I will also point out he was not the only 16th Century theologian who had misgivings about some NT books.

Once again, we have Cardinal Catajen who was more zealous than Luther, yet was not excommunicated and actually a top theologian at Trent:

Cajetan Responds by Jared Wicks:

Cajetan's biblical commentaries occasioned no little admiratio. From Luther, there is a recorded remark, "Cajetan, in his later days, has become Lutheran." Considerable zeal was expended by Ambrosius Catharinus, O.P., against the exegetical work of his retired Master General. Catharinus submitted a denunciation before the still acerbic faculty in Paris and proceedings began that could have led to another book-burning Clement VII intervened in a letter to the Parisian professors in September, 1533, to protect the man who was by then the Pope's regular source of valued theological advice. Proceedings were halted at this time in Paris, but not before an open letter of the Parisian theologians had begun to circulate listing the censurable propositions excerpted from the commentaries. The Sorbonne masters charged Cajetan with imprudently taking these notions from Erasmus or even Luther. The letter ended with a stinging rebuke of Cajetan's rashness in abandoning the long approved Vulgate text to base his work on new versions in no way guaranteed for their exactness. In 1534 a Wittenberg printer, no doubt with considerable glee over this discomfiture of Luther's old adversary, brought out the open letter in pamphlet form. Catharinus published his criticisms of Cajetan's commentaries in 1535, revised and expanded them in 1542, and obtained a censure by the Paris faculty against Cajetan's biblical works in August, 1544.

The specific charges brought against Cajetan concerned the reservations and plain doubts he had expressed about the apostolic origin of the final eleven verses of Mark's gospel, the story of the adultress in John 8, and five whole epistles of the New Testament (Hebrews, James, Jude, and 1 and 2 John). These views were especially serious in Cajetan's case, since he had laid down the rule that apostolic authorship or direct approval by an apostle was normative for inclusion in the New Testament canon. Following Jerome, Cajetan also relegated the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament to a secondary place where they could serve piety but not the teaching of revealed doctrine.


Jared Wicks tr., Cajetan Responds: A Reader in Reformation Controversy (Washington: The Catholic University Press of America, 1978).

Cajetan Responds


Jared Wicks is a Jesuit priest whose special field of interest is Martin Luther and the Reformation. He is a professor of historical theology at the Jesuit School of Theology in Chicago.

Same theologian who was a top scholar at Trent. Seems Luther was not the only Catholic with questions about NT books. I of course disagree with both men. Just wanted to point out Luther was not the only one questioning the NT canon.
And, as I stated earlier - you can give us a laundry list of your favorite Catholic theologians and it wouldn't make one iota of difference. NONE of their opinions are Authoritative, whereas, the previous councils and synods WERE.

Case closed.
 
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MarysSon

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I would not object if anyone offered to pray for me. The scripture says that if two agree on anything according to God's will, He will do it for us. But, I don't need anyone to pray for me because I can go boldly to God's throne of grace myself and receive help in my time of need.

Of course, it all depends on why a person would offer to pray for me. If I discern that it comes from a critical spirit and the motivation to pray for me is to change me according to what they want for me, then I can allow them to pray for me, but I will go to God afterward and give Him my opinion about the motivation for that prayer.
I never reject the prayers of my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ - and none of us should. I don't know about you but I need all the prayers I can get. My doctor, a Protestant, prays over me after each appointment. He always asks and I always welcome it.

James didn't tell his readers to pray for one another only if they "wanted" it. It is something we should ALWAYS do. I pray for my family every day - don't you?
 
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redleghunter

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Trent.
Trent closed the Canon.

However, just because the previous Synods weren't infallible - doesn't mean they weren't Authoritative. Not every Authoritative statement over the years had been made under the charism of infallibility. there are disciplines that are Authoritative and aren't even matters of doctrine - like not eating meat on Fridays during Lent.

Priestly celibacy is another one. It's not a doctrinal matter - but a matter of discipline. Nonetheless, it's Authoritative.
Well thank you for clarifying that.

For pages you defended a position where the canon was settled a done deal in the 4th Century.

I guess we agree Trent ended the debate. Slammed the door shut.
 
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redleghunter

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And, as I stated earlier - you can give us a laundry list of your favorite Catholic theologians and it wouldn't make one iota of difference. NONE of their opinions are Authoritative, whereas, the previous councils and synods WERE.

Case closed.
The point being, they needed a debate and vote at Trent. Does not sound authoritative at all.
 
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MarysSon

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Well thank you for clarifying that.

For pages you defended a position where the canon was settled a done deal in the 4th Century.

I guess we agree Trent ended the debate. Slammed the door shut.
The matter of the canon was NOT settled before Trent - just the 73 books of the Canon. As I stated before - it was an OPEN canon before Trent.
 
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MarysSon

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The point being, they needed a debate and vote at Trent. Does not sound authoritative at all.
Why would a debate nullify Authority??
There are STILL debates about things like female clergy. The matter is settled but the debates linger on.
 
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redleghunter

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The matter of the canon was NOT settled before Trent - just the 73 books of the Canon. As I stated before - it was an OPEN canon before Trent.

I have to say that is quite a shift in position.
 
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Philip_B

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BIG claim!
From Ask a Catholic:
It is correct to say that only the statements in the Council which begin with, "If anyone says..." and end with "let him be anathema," are considered the formally infallible statements, in the canonical sense of the term. That is why they are called canons, since it is the rule of faith that everyone must follow without exception or objection.​

From the Council of Trent
CONCERNING THE CANONICAL SCRIPTURES

FIRST DECREE

Celebrated on the eighth day of the month of April, in the year 1546.

The sacred and holy, ecumenical, and general Synod of Trent,--lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the Same three legates of the Apostolic See presiding therein,--keeping this always in view, that, errors being removed, the purity itself of the Gospel be preserved in the Church; which (Gospel), before promised through the prophets in the holy Scriptures, our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, first promulgated with His own mouth, and then commanded to be preached by His Apostles to every creature, as the fountain of all, both saving truth, and moral discipline; and seeing clearly that this truth and discipline are contained in the written books, and the unwritten traditions which, received by the Apostles from the mouth of Christ himself, or from the Apostles themselves, the Holy Ghost dictating, have come down even unto us, transmitted as it were from hand to hand; (the Synod) following the examples of the orthodox Fathers, receives and venerates with an equal affection of piety, and reverence, all the books both of the Old and of the New Testament--seeing that one God is the author of both --as also the said traditions, as well those appertaining to faith as to morals, as having been dictated, either by Christ's own word of mouth, or by the Holy Ghost, and preserved in the Catholic Church by a continuous succession.

And it has thought it meet that a list of the sacred books be inserted in this decree, lest a doubt may arise in any one's mind, which are the books that are received by this Synod. They are as set down here below: of the Old Testament: the five books of Moses, to wit, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy; Josue, Judges, Ruth, four books of Kings, two of Paralipomenon, the first book of Esdras, and the second which is entitled Nehemias; Tobias, Judith, Esther, Job, the Davidical Psalter, consisting of a hundred and fifty psalms; the Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Canticle of Canticles, Wisdom, Ecclesiasticus, Isaias, Jeremias, with Baruch; Ezechiel, Daniel; the twelve minor prophets, to wit, Osee, Joel, Amos, Abdias, Jonas, Micheas, Nahum, Habacuc, Sophonias, Aggaeus, Zacharias, Malachias; two books of the Machabees, the first and the second.

Of the New Testament: the four Gospels, according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the Acts of the Apostles written by Luke the Evangelist; fourteen epistles of Paul the apostle, (one) to the Romans, two to the Corinthians, (one) to the Galatians, to the Ephesians, to the Philippians, to the Colossians, two to the Thessalonians, two to Timothy, (one) to Titus, to Philemon, to the Hebrews; two of Peter the apostle, three of John the apostle, one of the apostle James, one of Jude the apostle, and the Apocalypse of John the apostle. But if any one receive not, as sacred and canonical, the said books entire with all their parts, as they have been used to be read in the Catholic Church, and as they are contained in the old Latin vulgate edition; and knowingly and deliberately contemn the traditions aforesaid; let him be anathema.

Let all, therefore, understand, in what order, and in what manner, the said Synod, after having laid the foundation of the Confession of faith, will proceed, and what testimonies and authorities it will mainly use in confirming dogmas, and in restoring morals in the Church.​

So it would seem that is consistent with you claim, as a faithful Catholic that the Canon of Scripture have been ruled on, and that the Catholic Church understands the ruling to be infallible dogma.

As an Anglican I note that this is some twenty years before the promulgation of the Thirty Nine Articles as we receive them - though we would never claim them to be infallible nor on a par with Holy Scripture. The first of the the articles in 1536 read "The binding authority of the Bible, the three ecumenical creeds and the first four ecumenical councils" though it gives us no guidance as to the canon, to which one must therefore presume that the Canon as received at Trent was what was meant. The Forty two articles of 1552 speak of Scripture, and the need to establish by scripture what must be required of a person to believe, however the canon itself is not spelled out. Given this was a more reformed part of the process, one may wonder if it included or excluded the deutero canonicals, and the evidence of silence must lead one to conclude they were probably included.

The Thirty Nine Articles of 1662, list the books of the Old Testament as canonical and of the DeuteroCanbonical texts we say
And the other Books (as Hierome saith) the Church doth read for example of life and instruction of manners; but yet doth it not apply them to establish any doctrine; such are these following:
  • The Third Book of Esdras
  • The Fourth Book of Esdras
  • The Book of Tobias
  • The Book of Judith
  • The rest of the Book of Esther
  • The Book of Wisdom
  • Jesus the Son of Sirach
  • Baruch the Prophet
  • The Song of the Three Children
  • The Story of Susanna
  • Of Bel and the Dragon
  • The Prayer of Manasses
  • The First Book of Maccabees
  • The Second Book of Maccabees
The issues with the Deutero canonical texts for the Fathers of Anglicanism was the questions raised in that the Jews in establishing the Canon - somewhat after Carthage I suspect - did not include them, possibly because they did not have them in Hebrew, but only in the Greek of the Septuagint, and so they had some doubts about them. It was also recognised in these works there are a number of themes and threads which might be seen as different in nature to most of the work of the received Canon proper.

Anglicans as such did not dismiss the Deutero canonical texts, but received them without the same level of authority as the rest of the canon. Many will no doubt regard that as an Anglican each-way bet. At the same time readings from the deutero canon were retained in the lectionaries, and they were included in translations of the Scriptures including the King James Bible of 1611.

I have a feeling that they have been dispensed with two easily by some of the congregations of the reformation, given that the Septuagint was the text that the writers of the New Testament seem to have been most familiar with, and quite likely Jesus himself as well.

I am however uncomfortable with the universal declaration of any section of the Church that the decisions of a council they conduct is infallible. I would be more likely to see that in oecumenical councils of the whole church, and even there as an Anglican I would be unlikely to make that claim.

Article XXI
Of the Authority of General Councils
General Councils may not be gathered together without the commandment and will of Princes. And when they be gathered together, (forasmuch as they be an assembly of men, whereof all be not governed with the Spirit and Word of God,) they may err, and sometimes have erred, even in things pertaining unto God. Wherefore things ordained by them as necessary to salvation have neither strength nor authority, unless it may be declared that they be taken out of holy Scripture.​

So, having reflected and prayed about the matter, I am bound to say I cannot accept the view that the Council of Trent was infallible. However you should not take from that that I am determining to disagree with anything the Council has said, and specifically in relation to the canon I am very cognisant of the position, and I think my position would be close, but not a perfect match.
 
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Philip_B

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And that's why I said it is not a matter of doctrine - didn't I?
I said it was a matter of discipline.
CANON IX.-If any one saith, that clerics constituted in sacred orders, or Regulars, who have solemnly professed chastity, are able to contract marriage, and that being contracted it is valid, notwithstanding the ecclesiastical law, or vow; and that the contrary is no thing else than to condemn marriage; and, that all who do not feel that they have the gift of chastity, even though they have made a vow thereof, may contract marriage; let him be anathema: seeing that God refuses not that gift to those who ask for it rightly, neither does He suffer us to be tempted above that which we are able.​

It would seem that the canon does include an anthema, which from my understanding would be a claim that this was infallible in the eyes of the Catholic Church - though I acknowledge that pragmatically there are a number of variants, including priests in the ordinariate some of whom are married, and have been effectively re-ordained as married priests.

We live in interesting times.
 
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prodromos

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I would not object if anyone offered to pray for me. The scripture says that if two agree on anything according to God's will, He will do it for us. But, I don't need anyone to pray for me because I can go boldly to God's throne of grace myself and receive help in my time of need.
The humble man considers himself, like the Apostle Paul, to be the chief of sinners and his own prayers to be of little worth so he covets the prayers of his brethren. They being humble, would also consider their iwn prayers of little value, but out of love for their brother they intercede on his behalf. This builds up love between members of Christ's body and as such is richly blessed by God.
Of course, it all depends on why a person would offer to pray for me. If I discern that it comes from a critical spirit and the motivation to pray for me is to change me according to what they want for me, then I can allow them to pray for me, but I will go to God afterward and give Him my opinion about the motivation for that prayer.
You remind me of the pharisee in the parable of the pharisee and the tax collector.
 
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DrBubbaLove

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Luther when speaking of Revelation and James, did question apostolic authorship. However never deep sixed any NT books. His translation had 27 NT books.

I will point out I disagree with Luther's reasoning. I will also point out he was not the only 16th Century theologian who had misgivings about some NT books.

Once again, we have Cardinal Catajen who was more zealous than Luther, yet was not excommunicated and actually a top theologian at Trent:

Cajetan Responds by Jared Wicks:

Cajetan's biblical commentaries occasioned no little admiratio. From Luther, there is a recorded remark, "Cajetan, in his later days, has become Lutheran." Considerable zeal was expended by Ambrosius Catharinus, O.P., against the exegetical work of his retired Master General. Catharinus submitted a denunciation before the still acerbic faculty in Paris and proceedings began that could have led to another book-burning Clement VII intervened in a letter to the Parisian professors in September, 1533, to protect the man who was by then the Pope's regular source of valued theological advice. Proceedings were halted at this time in Paris, but not before an open letter of the Parisian theologians had begun to circulate listing the censurable propositions excerpted from the commentaries. The Sorbonne masters charged Cajetan with imprudently taking these notions from Erasmus or even Luther. The letter ended with a stinging rebuke of Cajetan's rashness in abandoning the long approved Vulgate text to base his work on new versions in no way guaranteed for their exactness. In 1534 a Wittenberg printer, no doubt with considerable glee over this discomfiture of Luther's old adversary, brought out the open letter in pamphlet form. Catharinus published his criticisms of Cajetan's commentaries in 1535, revised and expanded them in 1542, and obtained a censure by the Paris faculty against Cajetan's biblical works in August, 1544.

The specific charges brought against Cajetan concerned the reservations and plain doubts he had expressed about the apostolic origin of the final eleven verses of Mark's gospel, the story of the adultress in John 8, and five whole epistles of the New Testament (Hebrews, James, Jude, and 1 and 2 John). These views were especially serious in Cajetan's case, since he had laid down the rule that apostolic authorship or direct approval by an apostle was normative for inclusion in the New Testament canon. Following Jerome, Cajetan also relegated the deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament to a secondary place where they could serve piety but not the teaching of revealed doctrine.


Jared Wicks tr., Cajetan Responds: A Reader in Reformation Controversy (Washington: The Catholic University Press of America, 1978).

Cajetan Responds


Jared Wicks is a Jesuit priest whose special field of interest is Martin Luther and the Reformation. He is a professor of historical theology at the Jesuit School of Theology in Chicago.


Same theologian who was a top scholar at Trent. Seems Luther was not the only Catholic with questions about NT books. I of course disagree with both men. Just wanted to point out Luther was not the only one questioning the NT canon.
My understanding of of the Canon in use today in the RCC:
  • Middle 2nd century Justin Martyr is perhaps the first Saint to mention the existence of an OT list that differs from the Jews of his day (the Jewish list tended to keep changing),
  • Same Saint presented the idea later expounded on by others that the Church has autonomy from the Jews in declaring a Canon/list.
  • There are divisions for a while with some parts of the Church sticking with whatever the Jews did with their OT
  • Around 367 AD Saint Athanasius is promoting as useful a list of divinely inspired Scripture that includes every book ratified by Trent almost 1200 years later.
  • Five separate synods of the Church, first in 382, 393x2(Hippo and Carthage), 392 Carthage and again in 419AD, ALL ratify an identical list
  • Pope Innocent endorses the same list unchanged in 405 in a papal letter to a Bishop's questions
  • So between 367 and Trent 1546AD the only very meaningful development within the RCC for an almost 1200 year span was:
    • the West getting a new translation (Vulgate) and the East accepting the prior Synod's declarations without reservation (the East does add more to it around the turn of millennium I believe)
    • In producing the Latin translation (Vulgate) Saint Jerome felt compelled to explain the inclusion of the seven books in his prologue to the Bible. Unfortunately the language of that prologue appears to have created much confusion regarding what degree of inspiration those OT books might have relative to the rest of the OT.
    • That translation starts being more and more widely used in the 5th century then pretty much everywhere in the West in the 6th.
    • So in the middle ages there is obviously present both a pro and con support for their equality with the rest of the OT, with some people changing opinion or seemingly unsure about it (my patron Saint Thomas apparently)
    • but interesting in practice this does not seem to matter as everyone appears to reference/use the 7 books no differently than they do rest of the OT- so the confusion appears to be generated only by the Saint Jerome's Prologue and from that a question of what was meant by it.
    • Over same period of Vulgate based doubts, there is abundance of evidence these books are read at the Roman Mass as part of the Liturgy everywhere
    • Several more Papal decrees, letters and bulls endorsing the list, all without any distinction given to these 7 from the rest of the OT.
So long before Luther makes his challenge to the existing list in 1519, obviously the Church had long accepted that list as inspired and is the same list first appearing in 367AD. So the only thing we could conclude happens in 1546 at Trent is that the Church again ratifies a list almost 1200 years old as inspired and apparently officially declares that list frozen (no more adding or taking away by any opposed, IOW Reformers). So it is hardly true at all to suggest they were not sure about those 7 books until Trent declares it.
 
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redleghunter

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My understanding of of the Canon in use today in the RCC:
  • Middle 2nd century Justin Martyr is perhaps the first Saint to mention the existence of an OT list that differs from the Jews of his day (the Jewish list tended to keep changing),
  • Same Saint presented the idea later expounded on by others that the Church has autonomy from the Jews in declaring a Canon/list.
  • There are divisions for a while with some parts of the Church sticking with whatever the Jews did with their OT
  • Around 367 AD Saint Athanasius is promoting as useful a list of divinely inspired Scripture that includes every book ratified by Trent almost 1200 years later.
  • Five separate synods of the Church, first in 382, 393x2(Hippo and Carthage), 392 Carthage and again in 419AD, ALL ratify an identical list
  • Pope Innocent endorses the same list unchanged in 405 in a papal letter to a Bishop's questions
  • So between 367 and Trent 1546AD the only very meaningful development within the RCC for an almost 1200 year span was:
    • the West getting a new translation (Vulgate) and the East accepting the prior Synod's declarations without reservation (the East does add more to it around the turn of millennium I believe)
    • In producing the Latin translation (Vulgate) Saint Jerome felt compelled to explain the inclusion of the seven books in his prologue to the Bible. Unfortunately the language of that prologue appears to have created much confusion regarding what degree of inspiration those OT books might have relative to the rest of the OT.
    • That translation starts being more and more widely used in the 5th century then pretty much everywhere in the West in the 6th.
    • So in the middle ages there is obviously present both a pro and con support for their equality with the rest of the OT, with some people changing opinion or seemingly unsure about it (my patron Saint Thomas apparently)
    • but interesting in practice this does not seem to matter as everyone appears to reference/use the 7 books no differently than they do rest of the OT- so the confusion appears to be generated only by the Saint Jerome's Prologue and from that a question of what was meant by it.
    • Over same period of Vulgate based doubts, there is abundance of evidence these books are read at the Roman Mass as part of the Liturgy everywhere
    • Several more Papal decrees, letters and bulls endorsing the list, all without any distinction given to these 7 from the rest of the OT.
So long before Luther makes his challenge to the existing list in 1519, obviously the Church had long accepted that list as inspired and is the same list first appearing in 367AD. So the only thing we could conclude happens in 1546 at Trent is that the Church again ratifies a list almost 1200 years old as inspired and apparently officially declares that list frozen (no more adding or taking away by any opposed, IOW Reformers). So it is hardly true at all to suggest they were not sure about those 7 books until Trent declares it.

Again Luther. I did not quote Luther but respected theologians who were at Trent. My sources were all Catholic historians making the claim. Not my personal opinion.

It's clear not all Catholic leaders and theologians were convinced the deuteros were on par with the protos.

I would agree there was consensus the deuterocanon books were used in liturgy and for initiate instruction (as some church doctors state). However, not to be used to form church doctrine. Every quote I posted from Catholic sources confirms this.

There's some precedence to their thinking. Malachi is the last book in the Bible to invoke the prophetic words of God. For example, "thus saith the Lord." Or "The Oracle of the Lord came to me..."

The deuterocanon books lack this prophetic authority. The one book in the protocanon would be Esther and probably why Athanasius kept it from his proto list.

I'm not claiming, nor are the sources I used, that there was a Catholic tradition of setting aside or eliminating the deuterocanon books. I'm presenting there was still a tradition of the separation in authority from the protocanon books.
 
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redleghunter

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  • Five separate synods of the Church, first in 382, 393x2(Hippo and Carthage), 392 Carthage and again in 419AD, ALL ratify an identical list
  • Pope Innocent endorses the same list unchanged in 405 in a papal letter to a Bishop's questions

Which synod was ecumenical? I don't think any of them were. Perhaps evidence of such is the fact the Eastern Orthodox have more books than the Roman Catholic canon. And the Ethiopian Orthodox a few more.
 
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Jack Isaacks

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He became converted to Christ, and made Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire. He closed the pagan temples and then opened them up for Christian services. This effectively ended the persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire. But started a trend for having Christian services in custom-built religious buildings instead of in different homes and rented meeting rooms.
 
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Jack Isaacks

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Wrong, Oscarr.

Christianity did NOT become the state religion under Constantine, but under his grandson, Theodosius.

The Pre-Constantinian Church had its own buildings in many places, as can be seen in imperial edicts to destroy them.

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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Jack Isaacks

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I did a Mastorate paper in Early Christian history and that is what my texts told me about Constantine. It depends on what history you read and the extent of the research that you base your views on.

If you really did so, you would know there is no such word as 'Mastorate".

Out of curiousity, just what history DID you read? Anything from the Fathers or Eusebius or Sozomen?

Glory to Jesus Christ!
 
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