Is water baptism a requirment to be saved

[mark kennedy]

I know I heard it said that it took Vatican 2 for the Catholic Church to discover the Bible it had been preaching for nearly 2000 years. That is possibly a little harsh, though many are excited and pleased to see the reawakened biblical emphasis in the tradition. One wonders what the reformation might have looked like if Vatican 2 had happened in 1500.

Its rather curious, Gutenberg's first publication was the Vulgate, followed closely by the Masoretic Text (Hebrew original). Then Erasmus, a Catholic scholar, published Textus Recepticus. John Wycliffe, another Catholic scholar started translating into English. Then one day in England a Protestant named William Tyndale gets mad and tells a bunch of clerics if he has his way a ploughboy will know more about the Scriptures then they do. He made good on his promise producing the first full translation into English. The King James bible was, not coincidentally, 85% identical the Tyndale Bible. Which was based on Catholic scholarship in the first place.

 

[miknik5]

[....

 

[miknik5]

... x

 

[Wolf_Says]

Indeed, they stopped the ordinary folk from reading it for a long time in history

I'm sorry, this is wrong.

The printing press is a (historically) new invention. Before it's time, all Bibles had to be hand written by a scribe, and these took years to complete, and cost WAY more than the average person could afford.

The only places that could have a Bible before the printing press were the Churches, as these had to be read at mass.

Most people in the Dark ages could not read, and therefore had no use in owning their own copy of the Bible. What good is owning a book that you cannot even begin to read? They went to the Church to hear the word of God, and there they could understand it because it was spoken to them.

The final this is, the Church is blamed for having the Bible chained down and behind pillars to prevent the ordinary people from seeing it. This is wrong however, because we all seem to forget that the Bible was a very expensive book back in the day. Thieves would love to get their hands on it.

The Bible was changed down not to prevent ordinary people from seeing it, it was to prevent thieves from stealing it, considering that 1 Bible took years to write. If any lay person could read, and wanted to read the Bible for themselves, they knew exactly where to go; the Church. There was always a Bible at the Church.

So to say that the Church prevented ordinary people from reading the Bible is wrong, and shows a very clear lack of understanding in regards to History.

 

[miknik5]

I'm sorry, this is wrong.

The printing press is a (historically) new invention. Before it's time, all Bibles had to be hand written by a scribe, and these took years to complete, and cost WAY more than the average person could afford.

The only places that could have a Bible before the printing press were the Churches, as these had to be read at mass.

Most people in the Dark ages could not read, and therefore had no use in owning their own copy of the Bible. What good is owning a book that you cannot even begin to read? They went to the Church to hear the word of God, and there they could understand it because it was spoken to them.

The final this is, the Church is blamed for having the Bible chained down and behind pillars to prevent the ordinary people from seeing it. This is wrong however, because we all seem to forget that the Bible was a very expensive book back in the day. Thieves would love to get their hands on it.

The Bible was changed down not to prevent ordinary people from seeing it, it was to prevent thieves from stealing it, considering that 1 Bible took years to write. If any lay person could read, and wanted to read the Bible for themselves, they knew exactly where to go; the Church. There was always a Bible at the Church.

So to say that the Church prevented ordinary people from reading the Bible is wrong, and shows a very clear lack of understanding in regards to History.

They didn't prevent people from reading TGE WORD of GOD They just didn't stress the importance of reading THE bible WORD of GOD

And most relied on
The church to be their middleman interpreter instead of knowing the WORD of GOD for themselves

 

[Shane R]

9. Nor should We fail to mention here how earnestly these same Our Predecessors, when the opportunity occurred, recommended the study or preaching or in fine the pious reading and meditation on the Sacred Scriptures. Pius X most heartily commended the society of St. Jerome, which strives to promote among the faithful - and to facilitate with all its power - the truly praiseworthy custom of reading and meditating on the holy Gospels; he exhorted them to persevere in the enterprise they had begun, proclaiming it "a most useful undertaking, as well as most suited to the times," seeing that it helps in no small way "to dissipate the idea that the Church is opposed to or in any way impedes the reading of the Scriptures in the vernacular."[20] And Benedict XV, on the occasion of the fifteenth centenary of the death of St. Jerome, the greatest Doctor of the Sacred Scriptures, after having most solemnly inculcated the precepts and examples of the same Doctor, as well as the principles and rules laid down by Leo XIII and by himself, and having recommended other things highly opportune and never to be forgotten in this connection, exhorted "all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scripture, to read it piously and meditate it constantly"; he reminded them "that in these pages is to be sought that food, by which the spiritual life is nourished unto perfection," and "that the chief use of Scripture pertains to the holy and fruitful exercise of the ministry of preaching"; he likewise once again expressed his warm approval of the work of the society called after St. Jerome himself, by means of which the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles are being so widely diffused, "that there is no Christian family any more without them and that all are accustomed to read and meditate them daily."[21] - divino afflante spiritu, Pope Pius XII, 1943

 

[Paul Yohannan]

They didn't prevent people from reading TGE WORD of GOD They just didn't stress the importance of reading THE bible

This is of course inaccurate, as the above quote from Pope Pius XII demonstrates. Vatican II redid the lectionary furthermore in an attempt to increase RC knowledge of the Bible, by adding an Old Testament lesson and lengthening some of the NT lessons. This became the basis for the Revised Common Lectionary used by most Protestants these days (most of whom had since Martin Luther previousoy used modified versions of the pre-Tridentine Roman lectionary)

What is more, John 1:1 clearly identifies the Word of God as Jesus Christ. The Bible describes the Word but is not itself the uncreated Word.

 

[miknik5]

This is of course inaccurate, as the above quote from Pope Pius XII demonstrates. Vatican II redid the lectionary furthermore in an attempt to increase RC knowledge of the Bible, by adding an Old Testament lesson and lengthening some of the NT lessons. This became the basis for the Revised Common Lectionary used by most Protestants these days (most of whom had since Martin Luther previousoy used modified versions of the pre-Tridentine Roman lectionary)

What is more, John 1:1 clearly identifies the Word of God as Jesus Christ. The Bible describes the Word but is not itself the uncreated Word.

Okay
Then I guess my parents generation and my generation and my children's generation just ignored the teachings

I purposely tell the young generation into care that they will meet a lot of interference and suggestions of who GOD is from others. The only way that they can truly know GOD is to read and to pray and to know HIS WORD for themselves

The WORD of GOD will not contradict the VOICE/SPIRIT of GOD and the VOICE/SPIRIT of GOD will not contradict the WORD of GOD

I pray that all would be filled with The HOLY SPIRIT but that is HIS WORK

I didn't know the WORD of GOD

And I didn't read the WIRD of GOD until GOD chose to open my heart to the TRUTH of THE GOSPEL by HIS SPIRIT

It was only after that that I began to read because HE put in me a yearning to read HIS WORD

But not before I was born again of HIS SPIRIT

I'm glad to know there is documentation that these holy elders felt it necessary that parishioners read the WORD

When was it publicly announced
Do you know when the internal document was publicly expressss?

 

[miknik5]

9. Nor should We fail to mention here how earnestly these same Our Predecessors, when the opportunity occurred, recommended the study or preaching or in fine the pious reading and meditation on the Sacred Scriptures. Pius X most heartily commended the society of St. Jerome, which strives to promote among the faithful - and to facilitate with all its power - the truly praiseworthy custom of reading and meditating on the holy Gospels; he exhorted them to persevere in the enterprise they had begun, proclaiming it "a most useful undertaking, as well as most suited to the times," seeing that it helps in no small way "to dissipate the idea that the Church is opposed to or in any way impedes the reading of the Scriptures in the vernacular."[20] And Benedict XV, on the occasion of the fifteenth centenary of the death of St. Jerome, the greatest Doctor of the Sacred Scriptures, after having most solemnly inculcated the precepts and examples of the same Doctor, as well as the principles and rules laid down by Leo XIII and by himself, and having recommended other things highly opportune and never to be forgotten in this connection, exhorted "all the children of the Church, especially clerics, to reverence the Holy Scripture, to read it piously and meditate it constantly"; he reminded them "that in these pages is to be sought that food, by which the spiritual life is nourished unto perfection," and "that the chief use of Scripture pertains to the holy and fruitful exercise of the ministry of preaching"; he likewise once again expressed his warm approval of the work of the society called after St. Jerome himself, by means of which the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles are being so widely diffused, "that there is no Christian family any more without them and that all are accustomed to read and meditate them daily."[21] - divino afflante spiritu, Pope Pius XII, 1943

Who sir was this written to and when was it publicly announced to all parishioners that they should read the WORD of GOD

You started with bullet 9
Can you please provide the whole dated document

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I'm glad to know there is documentation that these holy elders felt it necessary that parishioners read the WORD

When was it publicly announced
Do you know when the internal document was publicly expressss?

1943.

The Bible is publically read in the vernacular language at all masses.

 

[miknik5]

1943.

The Bible is publically read in the vernacular language at all masses.

Wait
Are you talking about switching over from Latin to English speaking masses?

I'm not talking about hearing the WORD of GOD read during mass

I'm talking about a person sitting down and prayerfully reading the WORD of GOD themselves , communing and communicating with GOD through HIS WORD daily

Not just at mass

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Who sir was this written to and when was it publicly announced to all parishioners that they should read the WORD of GOD

You started with bullet 9
Can you please provide the whole dated document

Divino spiritu afflante was an encyclical, sent from Rome to all bishops of the entire Church, addressed to the RCC as a whole.

Divino spiritu afflante means "Inspired by the Holy Spirit."

The entire document:

Divino Afflante Spiritu (September 30, 1943) | PIUS XII

"Inspired by the Divine Spirit, the Sacred Writers composed those books, which God, in His paternal charity towards the human race, deigned to bestow on them in order "to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."[1] This heaven-sent treasure Holy Church considers as the most precious source of doctrine on faith and morals."

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Wait
Are you talking about switching over from Latin to English speaking masses?

No, I am talking about the reading of scripture in the masses.

Even in a traditional diocesan Latin Mass, the scripture lessons themselves are now read in the vernacular in addition to being intoned in Latin.

 

[miknik5]

Divino spiritu afflante was an encyclical, sent from Rome to all bishops of the entire Church, addressed to the RCC as a whole.

Divino spiritu afflante means "Inspired by the Holy Spirit."

The entire document:

Divino Afflante Spiritu (September 30, 1943) | PIUS XII

"Inspired by the Divine Spirit, the Sacred Writers composed those books, which God, in His paternal charity towards the human race, deigned to bestow on them in order "to teach, to reprove, to correct, to instruct in justice: that the man of God may be perfect, furnished to every good work."[1] This heaven-sent treasure Holy Church considers as the most precious source of doctrine on faith and morals."

Wait
An insert and addition to THE WORD of GOD asking men to read this in lieu of just reading THE WORD of GOD?

 

[miknik5]

What I would have expected was the council these higher holders of THE WORD of GOD to tell those in their care to read and know THE WORD of GOD for themselves

An encyclical went around telling the people to read this instructional to THE WORD of GOD?

Why not just tell people to read THE WORD of GOD and let THE HOLY SPIRIT lead and teach just as THE WORD of GOD says HE will do?

 

[miknik5]

No, I am talking about the reading of scripture in the masses.

Even in a traditional diocesan Latin Mass, the scripture lessons themselves are now read in the vernacular in addition to being intoned in Latin.

I'm not talking about just at the mass

I'm talking about people having their own Bible reading and knowing ALL of GOD's WORD for themselves

 

[miknik5]

What was the mass like before 1943?

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Wait
An insert and addition to THE WORD of GOD asking men to read this in lieu of just reading THE WORD of GOD?

No.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

Why not just tell people to read THE WORD of GOD

That is what the Encyclical says.

 

[Paul Yohannan]

I'm talking about people having their own Bible reading and knowing ALL of GOD's WORD for themselves

This is desirable, but not always possible, for example, with illiterate people or those incapable of reading, or those who are mentally disabled, et cetera.

The reading of scripture is desirable but not a prerequisite for individual salvation; it contains instructions on how to save. Most of the early Christians were illiterate and had to have the scriptures read to them.