Happiness in Heaven while Loved Ones Fry in Hell?

[Lazarus Short]

Peace be with you.

Suppose a bad person (BP) inquires of a Judge or King (JoK) what would be the various penalties for the various crimes.

BP: What is the penalty if I rape 1 woman?
JoK: 1 year jail.
BP: That's not too bad.
BP: What is the penalty if I rape 2 women?
JoK: 2 years jail.
BP: I guess if I rape 100 women, I'll get 100 years jail?
JoK: Yes, you're getting the hang of our system of justice.
BP: What is the penalty for murdering 1 person?
JoK: Death Penalty.
BP: That's a bit rough.
BP: What is the penalty for murdering 2 people?
JoK: Death penalty. That's not too bad.
BP: What is the penalty for murdering 100 people?
JoK: Death penalty.
BP: That's generous.
BP: What's the penalty for raping 100 women and murdering 100 people?
JoK: Death penalty.
BP: That's pretty generous.


Now BP discussing with Almighty God about penalties for various crimes:

BP: What is the penalty for raping 1 women?
God: Hell.
BP: That sounds scary and vague at the same time.
BP: What is the penalty for raping 2 women?
God: Hell.
BP: Sounds ok.
BP: What is the penalty for raping 100 women?
God: Hell.
BP: Is there any difference with what happens to me in Hell if I rape 1 or 100 women?
God: Yes, you rape more, you suffer more.
BP: For how long?
God: Forever.
BP: Hmm. Is it painful in Hell?
God: Yes.
BP: That sounds like Torture.
God: Does it?
God: Do you still want to rape?
BP: I've changed my mind about that.
God: Why?
BP: Because I know what you are going to do to me. You're going to let me rape the women so that you can torture me. You're Sadistic.
God: Am I?
BP: No, I'm sorry for what I just said. Your sense of Justice has scared me to death so I'm afraid to rape anybody.
God: Good.


NIV Matthew C18
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.

35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

KJV Matthew C18
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

DRA Matthew C18
32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me:
33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee?
34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt.

35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.

NABRE Matthew C18
32 His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. 33 Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ 34 Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt.

35 So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.”


Who is your God?

My God tortures wicked people. And I Worship Him for doing so.

O hang on, you think my God is sadistic and does not deserve worship.

Let me ask you a question,

When you die and you found out that Almighty God does indeed torture wicked people, and He asked you this question knowing that you would not worship a sadistic God who tortures wicked people,

"Heaven or Hell?"

What would be your reply?

I wouldn't be in this spot you see because I worship a Just God who tortures wicked people and I am perfectly fine with that.


God bless you.

Well done, putting words into the mouth of God, right up there with other fiction writers (Dante/Milton/Baxter). Your Scripture quotes show us that the men coming into judgment are tormented/tortured for a reason. The reason? To pay back every last cent. Right? If we can liken sin to debt, I'm thinking that Jesus is telling us that those having rejected His offer of universal Jubilee (debits cancelled, free to return to one's land and possessions), then must pay it off themselves. The means are unspecified, but I believe it happens in the Lake of Fire.

Some may think that those who believe in the Salvation of All think of the entry of masses of sinners into the Kingdom, under a rain of rose petals, with music and applause, but still unregenerate. Nope. We do see the winepress of the wrath of God and the Lake of Fire. They are dreadful, but produce a refinement in those who go into the LoF: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -I Corinthians 315 KJV

I believe the unrepentant sinner will be eventually saved through the burning away of his personal chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble. What remains is gold, silver and precious gems even if in small amounts, thus suffering loss.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

You misunderstand me utterly. "...God actively "roasting" someone is not an accurate depiction of the consequences of fate someone has chosen." - now, that is exactly my point! And also: "...to apply our sense of justice to His..." - again, exactly my point. We carnal humans have a sense of justice, all too often having to do with retribution and getting even, but look at God's higher level justice, a God who sends His blessings/bounty/rain/provision on both the just and the unjust.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
-Romans 11:32 KJV. Let that sink in. Here is a just God, telling us that He will have mercy upon all. He tells us this in many places, if we are paying attention, and most of all, this just God sent His Own Son to die for our benefit, to free us from death and sin. That is justice? Yes, that is the ultimate expression of the justice of God. It is a justice tied up in Love, for who does God need to get even with? Compared to pagan gods, for whom bloody sacrifice was so often required, we serve a God of unexpected mercy and unmerited favor. How can anyone say that such a God condemns to eternal, conscious torment?

No, it is the Damnationists who apply their own carnal sense of justice to their concept of God.

If you agree "roasting" someone is not accurate description then it is most unclear why you chose to use it to depict the opposing view to yours. The point was you have God actively administering punishment when that is not an accurate depiction of either view. And now you suggested that applies in the view I presented as opposed to yours, without even recognizing the irony of having also said God is complicit in having actively made such a place, which applies to both views.

I do not agree. The claim being made is that unless God's Justice and Wrath conform to a human view of those traits God is a monster. Higher would does mean better, but that does not mean it must conform to our sense of Justice and Wrath, which in your case seems warped or at least suffers by an over emphasis on His Love and Mercy. Justice and Wrath are not subordinate to Love and Mercy.

God does have Mercy for all, just as He does Love for all. Yes He demonstrated both in doing what He did. Having Love and Mercy for all does not mean He forces it on creatures He gave a free will to. Absent accepting His Love and Mercy for all, there is only His Justice and Wrath for those who reject Him. He is Love. He is Mercy. He is also Justice and Wrath, which He has elected to give man temporary probation from. A probation that ends with our death.

It is not a matter of getting even. It would be a matter of restoring order, balancing Justice and allowing a Wrath against evil that He has temporarily withheld. It is not a matter of blood sacrifice, those are attempts at atonement, appeasement. Hell is not about atonement or appeasing God. It is about His Justice and Wrath toward evil.
Besides am unclear how one stops at the notion eternal suffering creates a monster, as if 1 second less would matter. If the presence of eternal suffering makes God a big monster, then am not sure what comfort we should have in a God that by that logic would be only a lessor monster right now.

 

[Hillsage]

Let me ask you a question, When you die and you found out that Almighty God does indeed torture wicked people, and He asked you this question knowing that you would not worship a sadistic God who tortures wicked people, "Heaven or Hell?"
What would be your reply?

I'd say, I thank you Father, that you "chose, called, predestined, ordained me to believe" in You. I know that nothing I ever did made me, or the world, worthy of your forgiveness.

I wouldn't be in this spot you see because I worship a Just God who tortures wicked people and I am perfectly fine with that.
God bless you.

Of course you'll be in the same spot, because who you worship is no different than who I worship. You just don't know Him like I now know Him. Though I did know him as you do now.

But there's no doubt about one thing; we'll both have company with our POV.

JER 8:8 "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. 9 The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD, and what wisdom is in them?

False in the days of Jeremiah, but infallible today?

 

[Gabriel Anton]

Of course you'll be in the same spot, because who you worship is no different than who I worship. You just don't know Him like I now know Him. Though I did know him as you do now.

Peace be with you.

I don't want to burst your Bubble of Faith in the God you believe you worship. I can't contend with your superior knowledge of God. Suffice to say, we'll both eventually find out in the end.

God bless you.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't want to burst your Bubble of Faith in the God you believe you worship.

In coming to a knowledge of 'the truth' It's good to know the deceptiveness in one's self. IOW, I suspect you really wish you 'could' burst my bubble.

I can't contend with your superior knowledge of God.

That's certainly the kind of knowledge which helps one keep 'their bubble' in tact. Especially in this forum which has an affinity for drawing the 'talking heads'.

Suffice to say, we'll both eventually find out in the end.

and

Peace be with you.
God bless you.

And to you also.

 

[Doveaman]

If one has a worm that does not die then in order for a worm not to die it would need a living host

The worm would also need to be immortal.

Are there immortal worms in hell?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The worm would also need to be immortal.

Are there immortal worms in hell?

No, or rather don't know but strongly doubt it as this is just a depiction. Does not mean the suffering so depicted ever ends as clearly it does not.
Also don't believe Abraham needs a box of eternal Tums in case anyone was wondering about that too.

 

[miknik5]

The worm would also need to be immortal.

Are there immortal worms in hell?

The worm's life is based on its host

 

[miknik5]

Well done, putting words into the mouth of God, right up there with other fiction writers (Dante/Milton/Baxter). Your Scripture quotes show us that the men coming into judgment are tormented/tortured for a reason. The reason? To pay back every last cent. Right? If we can liken sin to debt, I'm thinking that Jesus is telling us that those having rejected His offer of universal Jubilee (debits cancelled, free to return to one's land and possessions), then must pay it off themselves. The means are unspecified, but I believe it happens in the Lake of Fire.

Some may think that those who believe in the Salvation of All think of the entry of masses of sinners into the Kingdom, under a rain of rose petals, with music and applause, but still unregenerate. Nope. We do see the winepress of the wrath of God and the Lake of Fire. They are dreadful, but produce a refinement in those who go into the LoF: "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." -I Corinthians 315 KJV

I believe the unrepentant sinner will be eventually saved through the burning away of his personal chaff, tares, wood, hay and stubble. What remains is gold, silver and precious gems even if in small amounts, thus suffering loss.

The whole point of 1 Corinthians 3 was not to add anything to the foundation including not only wood but as well precious stones or gold

All these things are likened to manmade additions where manmade additions are not needed

 

[Jesus: From Gen to Rev]

...
To me the concept of hell flies in the face of any concept of a just and compassionate God. Hell would seem to be an entirely human invention based on a vindictive concept of retributatory justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of hell. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of justice. Perhaps we have the wrong idea of God. I completely reject the concept of hell as it is traditionally understood in most Christian churches.

Thank you JackRT for your post, and as I understand the Bible you are onto something there.

The word translated 'hell' in the KJV Bible comes to us from only one Hebrew word, and essentially two Greek words ...

Hebrew word sheol is translated as 'hell', 'grave', 'pit' - they are synonymous, and are all talking of the abode of the dead - the grave. My loved ones who have died are in this 'hell' - the grave, pit.

The Greek equivalent is hades, and only translated as 'hell' or 'grave' - again synonyms.

No fire in either sheol or hades - it is just where every dead person goes - saved or lost.

Jesus, when speaking about the final destruction of the unsaved, used the word gehenna - in His frequent parabolic manner. This was the part of the Valley of Hinnom, on the southern side of Jerusalem, where the city rubbish dump was, and where fire consumed the rubbish.

Eze 28:18 tells us where the final destruction of the wicked, Satan included, will be - on the surface of the Earth.

Rev 20 tells us when it will be - at the end of the 1000 years (millennium).

Mal 4: 1, 3 tell us that the unsaved will get burnt up - nothing left - brought to ashes.

God cleansed the Earth with water at the flood, and He is going to cleanse it with fire in the future (the 'hell' we all wish to shun).

The final destruction of the unsaved is referred to in Scripture as the "second death" ie. Rev 20:6

When all over, God will renew the Earth (like the origin beauty of Eden, then the "meek shall inherit the Earth". Lions will play with, not eat, other animals; children will be able to play with snakes and not be harmed, etc., etc.

God has no pleasure with the destruction of the wicked, but allows the outcome of the exercise of free choice - just as exercised in Heaven by angels - and 1/3 fell. Unfortunately, the Bible is clear that the majority of humans will be lost.

we need to help each other to be saved by correctly pointing each other to the Truth that God is indeed love.

In closing, what Hitler and others in history did in torturing fellow human beings was absolutely terrible, but think how much worse God would be if He vindictively roasted and toasted people in a fire for all eternity. That is not the God revealed in the Bible! That is a god of man's invention, and little wonder many reject 'Christianity' when its supposed advocates paint a picture of the wrong god for people to look at.

I pray what I share here will lead people out of error - all praise and honour and glory to our True God if it does.

 

[Jesus: From Gen to Rev]

The worm's life is based on its host

John 3:16 shows the two groups - those that perish, and those that have eternal life. The lost perish, are burnt up - nothing left, in the fire after the millennium (Rev 20) - referred to as the "second death" - not continuous life in the fire.

Immortality, which God has, is given to the saved only. If one was to burn in a fire forever, never to die, they'd also be immortal. That's not what Scripture teaches. They die that final, "second death" in the fire.

I pray that helps a bit.

 

[Doveaman]

The worm's life is based on its host

Yes, and the worms are feeding on the dead, not the living.

The idea Jesus is depicting is that there will be endless death, and therefore endless worms feeding on the eternal dead.

It is not meant to taken as literal eternal worms, but as literal eternal death.

 

[Doveaman]

No, or rather don't know but strongly doubt it as this is just a depiction.

Yes, just a depiction of eternal death, and not literal eternal worms.

Does not mean the suffering so depicted ever ends as clearly it does not.

It is not eternal suffering being depicted. It is endless death that is being depicted. Worms do not feed on suffering. Worms feed on death. The worms are being depicted as feeding on those who are eternally dead.

"One man dies in full vigor...Another man dies in bitterness of soul...Side by side they lie in the dust, and worms cover them both." -- (Job 21:23-26).

 

[Lazarus Short]

The whole point of 1 Corinthians 3 was not to add anything to the foundation including not only wood but as well precious stones or gold

All these things are likened to manmade additions where manmade additions are not needed

If what you say is so, why do those building on the Foundation (Jesus the Christ) with gold, silver and precious gems get a reward?

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, just a depiction of eternal death, and not literal eternal worms.
It is not eternal suffering being depicted. It is endless death that is being depicted. Worms do not feed on suffering. Worms feed on death. The worms are being depicted as feeding on those who are eternally dead.

"One man dies in full vigor...Another man dies in bitterness of soul...Side by side they lie in the dust, and worms cover them both." -- (Job 21:23-26).

Correct they are eternally dead, but in this case not totally destroyed by death in that an experience is being depicted. That very negative experience is being compared to another painful experience - chopping off one's on limb for example. And the point is one experience is said to be far better than the other, as in one should prefer one over the other to avoid the worse experience. Both are personal experience - things applicable to only a person. So a personal experience - "their worm never dies". There would literally be no sense of speaking of a particular personal experience if there is no person left to experience it.

Also if the person is not actually there experiencing what is so horrible about hell, IOW just something happening to dead bodies, how is that so terrible in comparison. If no one is experiencing what is depicted occurring in hell, then how is that so bad that someone should prefer to chop their own hand off?
I think there is actually a phobia some people have about being dead and having worms eat one's body, but have never heard of someone cutting their hand off over it.

 

[SkyWriting]

It's messing with my faith big time because I feel I wouldn't be able to love God with my whole heart if he was burning my family in flames forever if that's what happens. I'm hoping Hell is not an eternal flame pit.

It is an internal torment. Not a BBQ situation.
You will feel bad and have no foosball tables.

 

[Der Alte]

Thank you JackRT for your post, and as I understand the Bible you are onto something there.
The word translated 'hell' in the KJV Bible comes to us from only one Hebrew word, and essentially two Greek words ...
Hebrew word sheol is translated as 'hell', 'grave', 'pit' - they are synonymous, and are all talking of the abode of the dead - the grave. My loved ones who have died are in this 'hell' - the grave, pit.
The Greek equivalent is hades, and only translated as 'hell' or 'grave' - again synonyms.
No fire in either sheol or hades - it is just where every dead person goes - saved or lost.

Jesus, when speaking about the final destruction of the unsaved, used the word gehenna - in His frequent parabolic manner.

This was the part of the Valley of Hinnom, on the southern side of Jerusalem, where the city rubbish dump was, and where fire consumed the rubbish...

.

I prefer historical facts rather than oft repeated false information about Sheol/Gaehinnom[Heb.]/Gehenna[Gk.] i.e. "hell." As for the endlessly touted "burning rubbish dump in the valley of Hinnom." There is no documentary or archaeological evidence to support this. See documentation at the bottom of this post. There was a rubbish dump in a valley near Jerusalem but it was not Gehenna it was the Kidron valley.
Among the Jews in Israel before and during the time of Jesus was a belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link:Jewish Encyclopedia Online
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link:Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught about,

• “Then shall he say … Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity., Matthew 7:23
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24​

These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned the existing Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.​

Jesus used the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it had nothing to do with punishment and was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Jesus knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong, when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell must have been correct.
<•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•><•>

The traditional explanation that a burning rubbish heap in the Valley of Hinnom south of Jerusalem gave rise to the idea of a fiery Gehenna of judgment is attributed to Rabbi David Kimhi's commentary on Psalm 27:13 (ca. A.D. 1200). He maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. However, Strack and Billerbeck state that there is neither archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources (Hermann L. Strack and Paul Billerbeck, Kommentar zum Neuen Testament aus Talmud and Midrasch, 5 vols. [Munich: Beck, 1922-56], 4:2:1030). Also a more recent author holds a similar view (Lloyd R. Bailey, "Gehenna: The Topography of Hell," Biblical Archeologist 49 [1986]: 189.
Source, Bibliotheca Sacra / July–September 1992
Scharen: Gehenna in the Synoptics Pt. 1​

Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.

“Gehenna is presented as diametrically opposed to ‘life’: it is better to enter life than to go to Gehenna. . .It is common practice, both in scholarly and less technical works, to associate the description of Gehenna with the supposedly contemporary garbage dump in the valley of Hinnom. This association often leads scholars to emphasize the destructive aspects of the judgment here depicted: fire burns until the object is completely consumed. Two particular problems may be noted in connection with this approach. First, there is no convincing evidence in the primary sources for the existence of a fiery rubbish dump in this location (in any case, a thorough investigation would be appreciated). Secondly, the significant background to this passage more probably lies in Jesus’ allusion to Isaiah 66:24.”
(“The Duration of Divine Judgment in the New Testament” in The Reader Must Understand edited by K. Brower and M. W. Ellion, p. 223, emphasis mine)
G. R. Beasley-Murray in Jesus and the Kingdom of God:
“Ge-Hinnom (Aramaic Ge-hinnam, hence the Greek Geenna), ‘The Valley of Hinnom,’ lay south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls. The notion, still referred to by some commentators, that the city’s rubbish was burned in this valley, has no further basis than a statement by the Jewish scholar Kimchi (sic) made about A.D. 1200; it is not attested in any ancient source.” (p. 376n.92)
The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism ​

 

[Der Alte]

The worm would also need to be immortal.
Are there immortal worms in hell?

If God can make finite, fallible, imperfect man immortal, don't you think He can do the same with worms if He chooses?

 

[Jesus: From Gen to Rev]

I prefer historical facts rather than oft repeated false information about Sheol ...

• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50​

Dear Der Alter, thank you for your reply, but I noticed that the theology espoused is relying on external evidence to prove the Bible, rather than allowing the Bible to self-interpret, then finding the external evidence to support what the Bible actually teaches.

It seems to me that "the law of first mention" seems to have something to it when it comes to Bible theology. Essentially, the first time (chronologically) a concept is mentioned in Scripture, the remainder of the Bible agrees with it.

May I safely assume that all understand that the first two books of the Bible written are Job and Genesis (and we don't need to wrangle about which was first here because ...)

The first mention of sheol in each is as follows ...
Genesis 37 (grave in v35)
34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Job 14 (grave in v13)
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Surely no Christian nor Jew would care to suggest that Jacob and Job were talking of going into hell fire? Job even goes the extra mile in speaking of the future resurrection. All the righteous in sheol will be resurrected at Jesus' return, but the unrighteous will remain in the grave for 1000 years longer, then be resurrected, then burn up in hell (gehenna) fire.

The punishment is eternal, not the flames. The fire can't be quenched by anyone - it will do its work until there is nothing left to burn.
Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Surely nobody would try to suggest that Sodom and Gomorrha are still in flame today. Check the Bible's use of the Greek word behind 'eternal' here - from the Bible please.

"Give me the Bible, the blessed Bible, this my only question be; The teachings of me so often deceive me, what says the Bible to me?" (unknown author to me.)

Because anyone can pull together some Bible quotes and external "proofs", we need to individually sit down with the Bible alone first and see what it actually says itself, by comparing Scripture with Scripture. seemingly hard texts: leave aside temporarily until the easier ones are understood correctly, then come back and the seemingly hard ones will fit correctly.

Please do not entrust your understanding to anyone but God, through His Holy Bible.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Dear Der Alter, thank you for your reply, but I noticed that the theology espoused is relying on external evidence to prove the Bible, rather than allowing the Bible to self-interpret, then finding the external evidence to support what the Bible actually teaches.

It seems to me that "the law of first mention" seems to have something to it when it comes to Bible theology. Essentially, the first time (chronologically) a concept is mentioned in Scripture, the remainder of the Bible agrees with it.

May I safely assume that all understand that the first two books of the Bible written are Job and Genesis (and we don't need to wrangle about which was first here because ...)

The first mention of sheol in each is as follows ...
Genesis 37 (grave in v35)
34 And Jacob rent his clothes, and put sackcloth upon his loins, and mourned for his son many days.
35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For I will go down into the grave unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.

Job 14 (grave in v13)
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Surely no Christian nor Jew would care to suggest that Jacob and Job were talking of going into hell fire? Job even goes the extra mile in speaking of the future resurrection. All the righteous in sheol will be resurrected at Jesus' return, but the unrighteous will remain in the grave for 1000 years longer, then be resurrected, then burn up in hell (gehenna) fire.

The punishment is eternal, not the flames. The fire can't be quenched by anyone - it will do its work until there is nothing left to burn.
Jude 7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

Surely nobody would try to suggest that Sodom and Gomorrha are still in flame today. Check the Bible's use of the Greek word behind 'eternal' here - from the Bible please.

"Give me the Bible, the blessed Bible, this my only question be; The teachings of me so often deceive me, what says the Bible to me?" (unknown author to me.)

Because anyone can pull together some Bible quotes and external "proofs", we need to individually sit down with the Bible alone first and see what it actually says itself, by comparing Scripture with Scripture. seemingly hard texts: leave aside temporarily until the easier ones are understood correctly, then come back and the seemingly hard ones will fit correctly.

Please do not entrust your understanding to anyone but God, through His Holy Bible.

Saying the Bible should be helpful on a personal level and stating it was meant to be used by individuals to independently develop their own theology are not the same thing. The denial of the later is also not a denial of the first.

I would argue the idea one should be able to arrive or verify independently using only the Bible any given theology would frequently lead to error, which would be neither helpful or benefit to a believer.