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swordsman1

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Praying in tongues DOES NOT SPEAK TO PEOPLE, NO ONE UNDERSTANDS THEM 1 Corinthians 14:2

No one else is edified 1 Corinthians 14:17

You need to consider the context to understand that verse. The context of the whole of chapter 14 is solely the assembled congregation (v5, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 34). And the specific problem that Paul addresses throughout the chapter was that some people were speaking in an untranslated tongue that nobody in the congregation understood, a practice he thoroughly condemns and ultimately forbids. So when Paul says in verse 2 "no one understands them" he is saying that no one in the congregation understands the language that was spoken. That doesn't mean it was a non-human language. If someone was speaking say Persian in a small Greek church it is not surprising that no one understood.
 
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YouAreAwesome

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You need to consider the context to understand that verse. The context of the whole of chapter 14 is solely the assembled congregation (v5, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 34). And the specific problem that Paul addresses throughout the chapter was that some people were speaking in an untranslated tongue that nobody in the congregation understood, a practice he thoroughly condemns and ultimately forbids. So when Paul says in verse 2 "no one understands them" he is saying that no one in the congregation understands the language that was spoken. That doesn't mean it was a non-human language. If someone was speaking say Persian in a small Greek church it is not surprising that no one understood.

Why does he say "I thank God I speak in tongues more than all of you"?
 
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YouAreAwesome

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Quotes from 1 Corinthians 14 (AMP):

One who speaks in an unknown tongue does not speak to people but to God; for no one understands him or catches his meaning, but by the Spirit he speaks mysteries.
One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself
Now I wish that all of you spoke in unknown tongues
If I come to you speaking in unknown tongues, how will I benefit you
If they do not produce distinct [musical] tones, how will anyone [listening] know what is piped or played?
If you speak words [in an unknown tongue] that are not intelligible and clear, how will anyone understand what you are saying?
If I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unproductive
Then what am I to do? I will pray with the spirit [by the Holy Spirit that is within me]
Otherwise if you bless [and give thanks to God] in the spirit only, how will any outsider or someone who is not gifted [in spiritual matters] say the “Amen” [of agreement] to your thanksgiving, since he does not know what you are saying?
You are giving thanks well enough [in a way that God is glorified], but the other person [who does not understand you] is not edified [and spiritually strengthened since he cannot join in your thanksgiving]. I thank God that I speak in [unknown] tongues more than all of you; nevertheless, in public worship I would rather say five understandable words in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue [which others cannot understand].

You are saying:
1. The Corinthians spoke thanksgiving mysteries to God in a human language that was unknown to anyone in the church. Well how would they know this? If no one knows the language, how would Paul know?
2. That speaking in another human language edifies the person speaking, even though no one else understands them, and they don't even understand themselves. How is this so different to the speaking in tongues that I have defined? How do you know EVERYONE who speaks in tongues isn't speaking in a human language that no-one who hears knows?
3. Is speaking in a different human language like speaking in distinct or indistinct notes?
4. Does my spirit know another human language of the world even though my mind doesn't?
5. Is changing the language blessing and giving thanks in a very different and better way to the speaking in tongues I have described (even if no-one hears the speaking in tongues)?
6. Paul says he speaks in tongues more than them all, NEVERTHELESS IN PUBLIC ... meaning he speaks in tongues in private. But you are saying he speaks in another human language that he doesn't even know himself?

I don't think changing the language is a strong explanation of this chapter. I used to believe it that way, but I read this chapter over and over in many different translations and just don't think it holds equal weight to the speaking in tongues that I have defined: a spirit to Spirit worship and communion with God, giving thanks, praising Him, and groaning inwardly for His glory to manifest on the earth.
 
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LinkH

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You need to consider the context to understand that verse. The context of the whole of chapter 14 is solely the assembled congregation (v5, 12, 18, 23, 26, 28, 34). And the specific problem that Paul addresses throughout the chapter was that some people were speaking in an untranslated tongue that nobody in the congregation understood, a practice he thoroughly condemns and ultimately forbids. So when Paul says in verse 2 "no one understands them" he is saying that no one in the congregation understands the language that was spoken. That doesn't mean it was a non-human language. If someone was speaking say Persian in a small Greek church it is not surprising that no one understood.

I see it roughly the way you do. I would also add that this is a supernatural language. The speaker would not typically understand what he is saying. His understanding is 'unfruitful' as Paul puts it. The message is interpreted through supernatural means, by a gift of the Spirit.

On the other hand, Paul does suggest that speaking in tongues of angels is possible, so the language may be human and angelic.

I'd also like to point out that there were two 'saint Gregories' that had different understandings of speaking in tongues in the fourth century. One argued that in Acts 2, members of the crowd merely perceived the disciples to be speaking in foreign languages. We might say a 'miracle in the ear.' The other argued that the disciples actually spoke a foreign language. I hold to the latter view (which also seems to be the historical understanding in the Pentecostal movement, as born out by the experience of some at Azusa Street and some later missionaries who heard testimonies of others understanding their language.)

Some early Pentecostals thought that they would be able to go into another language and use speaking in tongues to preach the Gospel. The Bible does not teach this or give an example of it. It did not work that way, though there have been occasional testimonies of people on the mission field understanding what was spoken in tongues or of missionaries hearing their own language in tongues. I correspond with a preacher on Facebook who has some kind of theological doctorate who knows of two German speakers who speak in tongues in English, one in KJV English.

Something else to point out is that Paul does not outright totally forbid all speaking in tongues without interpretation in church. If one speaks in tongues and there is no interpreter, then he must keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God as the verse says.
 
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LinkH

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Swordsman1,

You made a comment implying that two interpreters do not give the same interpretation of tongues. I wouldn't be surprised if someone had tried this 'experiment' on some occasion and got different interpretations. Not all interpretations are genuine. But do you have any evidence that anyone has performed a large scale experiment of this type?


Based on what people with this gift say, it seems to be the case that interpreters often recieve their interpretation on the spot, as many prophecies are received, and that interpretation is not something they generally do 'at will' as they could with a natural language. We should also consider whether there could be a problem with any sample of people willing to engage in an experiment of this nature. Are those who consider it appropriate less likely to have an accurate interpretation of tongue than those who do not participate?


I've known a couple of people who have gotten the same interpretation of tongue as someone else, but the other one gave it first. The same thing happens with prophecies. I've gotten words of knowledge about individuals that someone else told about as a part of a prophecy before I had a chance to share it. I can think of a couple of times off the top of my head. There are also those cases where an individual goes to a church and someone prophecies a certain thing over him, and then he goes elsewhere, and someone else prophesies the same thing-- different people, different church meetings, different congregations. I've witnessed this. Some prophecies are rather general, but lots of prophecies are quite specific and go into areas that cannot be arrived at by guesswork.
 
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LinkH

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Swordsman1

Which of these strings of text below is 'speaking in tongues' and which are language spoken with the understanding... without looking anything up online to verify

Kalimatyang mana diantera kalimatini
Bahasayang dihafal secarabiasa danyang mana bahasaroh
Anti mraata ajmala
 
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YouAreAwesome

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an individual goes to a church and someone prophecies a certain thing over him, and then he goes elsewhere, and someone else prophesies the same thing
Indeed. In the space of about a month, I was prophesied over 3 or 4 times (a long time ago now), that I had the calling of "_____" and each prophecy said the same biblical man. One was a visiting prophet in a church I had never been to before, he didn't know it was my first time there, in fact, it could have been his first time. He chose me out of a crowd of 200 or so to tell me this. Then 6 hours by car north, at a Holy Spirit conference, at least two separate people in the congregation gave me the same word (I can remember on lady clearly, and vaguely the man...) and I think there was one other... I really should keep a record of these things! And then 2 hours by car south at another small church meeting, the same thing. Pretty amazing.
 
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LinkH

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Indeed. In the space of about a month, I was prophesied over 3 or 4 times (a long time ago now), that I had the calling of "_____" and each prophecy said the same biblical man. One was a visiting prophet in a church I had never been to before, he didn't know it was my first time there, in fact, it could have been his first time. He chose me out of a crowd of 200 or so to tell me this. Then 6 hours by car north, at a Holy Spirit conference, at least two separate people in the congregation gave me the same word (I can remember on lady clearly, and vaguely the man...) and I think there was one other... I really should keep a record of these things! And then 2 hours by car south at another small church meeting, the same thing. Pretty amazing.

It's pretty amazing how that happens. My wife gives specific prophecies sometimes to people and gets words of knowledge. She was thinking of starting a food vending and catering business several years ago, and hadn't told people about it. We'd discussed it. She went to a small meeting of about 10 people, and someone prophesied about someone there, that the Lord would bless her catering business.

We did the food vending and catering business for a few years when I was in grad school, which helped make up the financial short-fall in the household. We did food vending business first before we got any catering gigs. But the catering paid a lot better and it really did help us.

Anyway, she's prophesied detailed stuff over people, who are amazing and thankful when she hits the nail on the head and it helps them in some way. But when it happened to her, she was also amazed.

I've had it happen where I go to one place and someone prophecies something about me, and go elsewhere and someone else says the same thing, or at least a part of it is the same. I've known other people this happened to, too. I've experienced prophecies or interpretations that tell what I've been thinking or witnessed prophecies that tell what other people are thinking.

Biblically, we should expect this to happen. But we should also expect some prophecies to seem a bit 'mundane' as some of the prophecies in the Bible do.
 
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Biblicist

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Acts 2 refers to tongues as 'glossa' as well. And I Corinthians does not refer exclusively to 'tongues of angels' as 'tongues.' Paul said 'Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels...' so tongues of men are tongues, too.
When the historian Luke wrote Acts 2:8 his choice of dialektos (language) was appropriate at this particular location as was referring to how the crowd heard what was being said to the Father, being in their own native languages. With Acts 2:4 Luke is speaking from the perspective of the Christian in that the Holy Spirit was the one who enabled them to speak in tongues, where they were most likely unaware that they were speaking in known human languages until the crowd told them.

So the glossa of Acts 2:4 is from the perspective of the Christian and the dialektos of Acts 2:8 is from the perspective of those who heard what they heard.

I was raised Pentecostal, and it is strange to me when people try to ae that tongues are nearly always angelic languages. That's not the historical Pentecostal movement belief.
From my beginnings in Pentecost back in 1974 as a teenager, as much as our theology was still primitive at best, I am aware that some believed that it could be possible to speak in a known human language in the mission field, though this was based more on speculation than with any substantial evidence, but I would say that probably all of those who I associated with would have deemed tongues to be always given in an Angelic tongue.

Since the 1980's we have seen an incredible amount of scholarly material that has been produced by Pentecostal and charismatic scholars, were from memory I cannot recall any published commentary that has suggested that congregational tongues are anything but Angelic.

I have read or heard (interview with attendee) that at the Azusa Street Revival, there were occasions when immigrants would come into the meeting and understand their own language, Japanese or Russian for example, and that is part of what made the revival grow. A/G missionaries reported similar things over the years. Dennis Balcome, a missionary to China wrote an article in which he reported that Chinese villagers would sometimes speak in tongues in English. A few months after reading that, I had the opportunity to meet his daughter and her husband. I mentioned the article to her, and she told me she heard an old Chinese woman in a village who did not know English speaking in tongues in English. I asked what she said. She said she was saying a psalm. I asked her which one. She said she wasn't sure, but it sounded like something out of the Psalms.
Even though . . . it . . . could . . . be . . . possible for the Father to choose to allow someone to speak in English when they could not normally do so, this would be at most a very unusual event. We would have to ask ourselves why such a thing could occur when the previously unreached person could not understand what we were saying about the Gospel be able to go this far.

I've known a couple of other people who've spoken in tongues and others present understood what they said in their natural language.
Back around 1995 I was taking some day classes at a Bible College where we would often start our day with praise and worship, where upwards of 50 people would be praising the Lord (improperly) in tongues without interpretation. After one of our lectures had finished, a Spanish speaking student mentioned to me that he has struggled to be able to pray in tongues, so to avoid any embarrassment he sings to the Lord in Spanish. This means that if you ever hear someone say that they once heard someone speaking tongues in Spanish in Dandenong Melbourne about this time then you can of course pass it by. I have no doubt that many such things occur from time to time and when we add in a bit of storytelling and confusion then I would say that this would be the reason why people presume that they had heard someone speaking in a known human language.

It's not the norm. Normally, if one speaks in tongues in church 'no man understandeth him'. But God can also arrange an Acts 2 situation.
The problem here is that Paul is adamant that within the congregational meeting that no man will ever be able to understand what the Spirit is saying to the Father which is why each tongue must be followed up with an interpretation. If the Father desires to speak to either a congregation or to an individual during a meeting he will use prophecy, which is always given in the local language.

Tongues of angels are a possibility Paul suggests. There is no reason to assume that is the norm.
For Paul and with First Corinthians, Paul leaves absolutely no doubt that tongues will always be given by the Spirit in Angelic tongues, which is why he has gone to so much trouble in 1Cor 14 to demand that all our speech is intelligible to the entire congregation.
 
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Goatee

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Are you trolling? You speak of what you don't understand with mockery. This is not befitting Christian conduct.

Trolling? Mockery? Is that how see it? I am stating what 'i' believe. To me, it is gibberish as it is just noises uttered repetitively! It is not Angelic as, what is Angelic Language? Have you heard it? Do we know what an Angels voice sounds like? I would think it has a language that 'others' can understand.
 
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Goatee

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Looking at what people have written on here about Corinthians you can see that they are twisting it to suit their practices / beliefs. Speaking in tongues was for the Apostles to preach to all nations. It not for hundreds or thousands in a 'church' all uttering gibberish that 'nobody' can interpret!

Seems to me, that in these places everyone and their cat can speak in tongues! There is just something massively wrong there.

I have heard them myself. Seen them and it is so false and unnerving.

Again, i will say, Jesus said when you pray, pray in secret. No need to go wailing, screaming and falling over! No need for false words. No need for gibberish.
 
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Looking at what people have written on here about Corinthians you can see that they are twisting it to suit their practices / beliefs. Speaking in tongues was for the Apostles to preach to all nations. It not for hundreds or thousands in a 'church' all uttering gibberish that 'nobody' can interpret!
Having heard this on countless occassions on this particular thread, where I have probably asked on at least three occassions for an example of where the Apostles and particular Paul ever used tongues in this way or where they have even suggested that it is possible, I will now ask you to provide an example as no one else had been able to do so - which of course is no surprise.
 
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LinkH

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Looking at what people have written on here about Corinthians you can see that they are twisting it to suit their practices / beliefs. Speaking in tongues was for the Apostles to preach to all nations.

Have you even read ANY of the passages in the Bible that deal with speaking in tongues. There is no evidence that the apostles preached the Gospel in tongues and no scripture that teaches that this is the purpose of tongues.
 
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Goatee

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Acts 2:4-8
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven. 6 And at this sound the multitude came together, and they were bewildered, because each one heard them speaking in his own language. 7 And they were amazed and wondered, saying, “Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?

'Other Tongues'......'Other Languages'....why?

To spread the Gospel.
 
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Acts 2:4
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

'Other Tongues'......'Other Languages'....why?

To spread the Gospel.
Is this a reply to the question that either LinkH or I posted?
 
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Biblicist

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What do you think the Apostles are doing in that passage?
As the 120 were simply praising God by speaking of his mighty works then this has absolutely nothing to do with evangelism. This particular occurrence of tongues is the normal application of congregational tongues which is about praise and worship.

If what the 120 were speaking in the Spirit was supposed to be an evangelistic message then why did the crowd approach the 120 asking "Hey, what's up?" If Peter had not of provided the churche's first evangelistic message then most (if not all) of the crowd would have walked away thinking that they whole thing was a big joke.

If tongues could have been used to evangelise the lost then undoubtedly this would have had the ability and the effect of reaching the entire known world within a generation as no people group would argue againt what they were hearing.

As I said, there are no examples in the Scriptures where evangelism ever took place using tongues, where none of the Biblical authors even suggest that what would be an absolutely amazing and powerful thing was possible.
 
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Goatee

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As the 120 were simply praising God by speaking of his mighty works then this has absolutely nothing to do with evangelism. This particular occurrence of tongues is the normal application of congregational tongues which is about praise and worship.

If what the 120 were speaking in the Spirit was supposed to be an evangelistic message then why did the crowd approach the 120 asking "Hey, what's up?" If Peter had not of provided the churche's first evangelistic message then most (if not all) of the crowd would have walked away thinking that they whole thing was a big joke.

If tongues could have been used to evangelise the lost then undoubtedly this would have had the ability and the effect of reaching the entire known world within a generation as no people group would argue againt what they were hearing.

As I said, there are no examples in the Scriptures where evangelism ever took place using tongues, where none of the Biblical authors even suggest that what would be an absolutely amazing and powerful thing was possible.

Interpretation. Thats 'your' interpretation. Obviously way off the mark buddy!
 
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Interpretation. Thats 'your' interpretation. Obviously way off the mark buddy!
So that's all you can say!! Would you care to try and explain why I am "off the mark", this would be very interesting indeed.
 
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