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LDS The 'beginning' of God in Mormonism

dzheremi

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Because even you speak of Christ and believe in Christ many important and sacred things were misplaced or taken out of the gospel on purpose to fit an agenda.

I'm sorry, what are you trying to say here? I'm not sure if you just left out a few words or what, but I can't make out what this is an answer to, or what you're even trying to say here. Can you please clarify what you mean by this?

Can't you see that like at the time of Christ when there were no prophets that the Jews were in apostasy.

Who's talking about the Jews? Again, I'm not sure where this is coming from.

Christ restored truths and also brought a higher law for them to live. They hadn't had prophets for over three hundred years. Christ drive them out of the temple for a reason. They had lost truths and corrupted how sacrifice was to be accomplished.

Okay. Sure. Again, I'm not sure why you're talking about the Jews...

Can't you see that Christianity didn't have prophets after the last apostle was killed. Almost two thousand years.

Well yeah...that's what I've been saying to you/all Mormons!

We claim restoration. We don't claim that we just didn't agree with a interpretation of the bible.

So what. Anyone can claim anything. And my post was written in response to your idea that if Christianity were true there would only be one church, or at least not as many as there currently are. So saying that you claim to be a restoration of the church doesn't actually answer anything I've written. It's completely irrelevant. Many other groups past and present have claimed the same, and likewise don't mean anything.

And we have more scriptures. Fruits of prophets once again.

And Marcion produced an edited version of Luke's gospel that he called the Gospel of the Savior that no other church had, and the Ethiopians have books in their broader canon that no other church has, and so on and so forth. Having more doesn't mean being correct. Being correct means being correct, and for that you must look at the content of the faith preached by and held to by whatever group you're talking about.

You really haven't answered anything I've written here, only repeated Mormon claims with once again zero evidence to back them up. Enough of that already. Please don't quote my posts anymore if you are not going to actually address them. I don't write things so that you can use them as a springboard to post whatever you feel like posting.

I'd still like an answer to the question of why Joseph Smith started his own church if the multiplicity of churches is taken as evidence of an apostasy. Saying "We claim that what he started is a restoration of the church" is not an answer to that, because whether or not that is claimed it is still in actuality one more church that did not exist before he started it, and is hence further evidence of the 'apostasy', according to Mormon logic as used against others.
 
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fatboys

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I'm sorry, what are you trying to say here? I'm not sure if you just left out a few words or what, but I can't make out what this is an answer to, or what you're even trying to say here. Can you please clarify what you mean by this?



Who's talking about the Jews? Again, I'm not sure where this is coming from.



Okay. Sure. Again, I'm not sure why you're talking about the Jews...



Well yeah...that's what I've been saying to you/all Mormons!



So what. Anyone can claim anything. And my post was written in response to your idea that if Christianity were true there would only be one church, or at least not as many as there currently are. So saying that you claim to be a restoration of the church doesn't actually answer anything I've written. It's completely irrelevant. Many other groups past and present have claimed the same, and likewise don't mean anything.



And Marcion produced an edited version of Luke's gospel that he called the Gospel of the Savior that no other church had, and the Ethiopians have books in their broader canon that no other church has, and so on and so forth. Having more doesn't mean being correct. Being correct means being correct, and for that you must look at the content of the faith preached by and held to by whatever group you're talking about.

You really haven't answered anything I've written here, only repeated Mormon claims with once again zero evidence to back them up. Enough of that already. Please don't quote my posts anymore if you are not going to actually address them. I don't write things so that you can use them as a springboard to post whatever you feel like posting.

I'd still like an answer to the question of why Joseph Smith started his own church if the multiplicity of churches is taken as evidence of an apostasy. Saying "We claim that what he started is a restoration of the church" is not an answer to that, because whether or not that is claimed it is still in actuality one more church that did not exist before he started it, and is hence further evidence of the 'apostasy', according to Mormon logic as used against others.
Lol. I have to laugh. No claims a restoration. That is different than interpreting the doctrine differently and disagreeing with another church but it doesn't matter because you all beleive in the trinity.
 
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NYCGuy

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Here is the problem as I see it. I can understand why you can claim you have history but as I look at the written history there are places where traditions have taken over real doctrines. Even though mainstream Christianity lacks there was no apostasy yet the reason for churches breaking off from one another is not agreeing with doctrines. If there was no apostasy then there would only one church or at least not as many.

By this logic there should only be one church derived from Joseph Smith's claimed restoration. As we know, that isn't the case:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement

Therefore the LDS church is in apostasy, using the logic you used.
 
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NYCGuy

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Lol. I have to laugh. No claims a restoration. That is different than interpreting the doctrine differently and disagreeing with another church but it doesn't matter because you all beleive in the trinity.

Mormonism is quite simply one of many claimed restorations/"further light and knowledge"/new revelation/etc since Jesus Christ established His Church in ancient times. This is honestly how Catholics and Orthodox view Mormonism. We have literally seen this sort of thing since over a thousand years ago. It isn't special, unique, or anything of the sort, simply yet another innovation from man.
 
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Peter1000

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I'm not sure I understand the question. We do not have any rule that I know of whereby a person must perform some miracle in order to be considered a saint. As I understand it, generally people are locally venerated first, and on the strength of the community's interaction with the deceased (while they were alive, or afterwards, or both), their lives are reviewed by the Holy Synod, which has the power to 'officially' declare them a saint for the Church -- meaning that their names may be added to the synaxarion (the book of saints lives and other important histories related to the Church; in the Coptic tradition, this is read aloud before the congregation as part of every liturgy), churches may be named after them, hymns may be composed in their honor to keep their memory alive, and so on. I know that some churches have conventional paths for this, whereby after X number of years or with the confirmation of X number of miracles, they may be declared a saint, but this is not the case in the Coptic Orthodox Church. I had heard that it was traditional that 50 years pass before the person's death before they are declared a saint, but with the recent canonization of HH St. Pope Kyrillos VI (d. 1971), I see that this is not in fact the case. It is even quicker with some of the modern martyrs, such as the neo-martyrs of Libya, the 20 Copts (and one Ghanaian or Chadian, depending on which news reports you believe) who were beheaded by ISIS in Libya only a few years ago. They were added to the Synaxarion by HH Pope Tawadros II, and there are already icons being made of them, even by people from outside of the Church (I saw once recently by a Serbian Orthodox iconographer). If they have performed any supernatural feats, we don't know about them, but they were canonized quite simply for their steadfast belief in Christ the Lord and their public witness to Him, even as they were being killed. They died with the name of Christ on their lips and clearly in their hearts, as we all should, and the whole world could see it in the propaganda video that ISIS produced. (The brother of two of the martyrs in fact thanked ISIS for not cutting the audio of their execution, because that way everyone could witness their great faith and hear them call upon the Lord Jesus by name as they received the crown of martyrdom.)



Indeed he is, as are all our bishops. The honorific 'the apostolic' (Arabic: al-rasouli) is used for our father HH St. Athanasius in the Coptic Orthodox Church in particular because of his great strides and struggles undertaken for the faith, to rescue the world from the heresy of Arianism (even suffering exile several times for it), and his composition of the Creed at Nicaea which is still the standard statement of Orthodoxy for the vast majority of the world's Christians, and so on. He also sent Ethiopia her first bishops after the conversion of the Axumite king Ezana c. 330 AD, and did many other things which helped establish and strengthen the Christian faith around the world. Hence we call him 'the apostolic' as a way of saying that his contributions are as great as those of the apostles themselves who likewise spread the faith in their own day by establishing churches around the known world during the first century.

The same concept exists among the Chalcedonians, who call certain people recognized by them (including some recognized by us, too, like Mary Magdalene and St. Thekla) "equal to the apostles" in recognition of their service to the faith.

Indeed he is, as are all our bishops. So he was really a bishop, not an apostle. Do you understand the difference between an apostles, who has world-wide authority and a bishop, who have local authority only?

When the apostles lived, they would go around the world setting up churches, and they would ordain a bishop in a particular local area to be the leader of the local church.

So world-wide vs local. A major difference between an apostle and a bishop. Athenasius was ordained to be the bishop of Alexandria. He was not ordained to be a world-wide apostle.

He and his followers gave him the name of 'the honorific', the apostolic', which is like getting an 'honorary degree' from some college, but was really not a true degree.

Jane is right. One of the special events in an apostles life is that they were a witness of the living Christ. Everyone up to Paul had actually lived with Jesus so they automatically were special witnesses. Paul, however, was not a companion of Jesus, so in order for Paul to be a special witness, Jesus had to appear to him and did so on the way to Damascus. This interview was short and sweet, but just what an apostle needed to be callled an apostle. So the model is set. You must know Jesus personally in order to be an apostle.

So the question is not how many churches he set up outside of his area of authority, as a bishop of Alexandria, the question did he have an interview with Jesus Christ and was he called to be an apostle and given authority to go out on a world-wide apostolic mission to establish churches?

So in any of his writings, did he mention that he had a visit from Jesus Christ and Jesus gave him instructions?
 
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Peter1000

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I'm sorry, what are you trying to say here? I'm not sure if you just left out a few words or what, but I can't make out what this is an answer to, or what you're even trying to say here. Can you please clarify what you mean by this?



Who's talking about the Jews? Again, I'm not sure where this is coming from.



Okay. Sure. Again, I'm not sure why you're talking about the Jews...



Well yeah...that's what I've been saying to you/all Mormons!



So what. Anyone can claim anything. And my post was written in response to your idea that if Christianity were true there would only be one church, or at least not as many as there currently are. So saying that you claim to be a restoration of the church doesn't actually answer anything I've written. It's completely irrelevant. Many other groups past and present have claimed the same, and likewise don't mean anything.



And Marcion produced an edited version of Luke's gospel that he called the Gospel of the Savior that no other church had, and the Ethiopians have books in their broader canon that no other church has, and so on and so forth. Having more doesn't mean being correct. Being correct means being correct, and for that you must look at the content of the faith preached by and held to by whatever group you're talking about.

You really haven't answered anything I've written here, only repeated Mormon claims with once again zero evidence to back them up. Enough of that already. Please don't quote my posts anymore if you are not going to actually address them. I don't write things so that you can use them as a springboard to post whatever you feel like posting.

I'd still like an answer to the question of why Joseph Smith started his own church if the multiplicity of churches is taken as evidence of an apostasy. Saying "We claim that what he started is a restoration of the church" is not an answer to that, because whether or not that is claimed it is still in actuality one more church that did not exist before he started it, and is hence further evidence of the 'apostasy', according to Mormon logic as used against others.
Why did JS start his own church? He didn't. He went into that grove of trees to find out which churh he should join.

He was instructed by Jesus Christ to join none of them. IOW the true church of Jesus Christ did not exist on the earth. The original church, which melded into the Catholic and Orthodox churches was corrupted so badly that you could no longer recognize the original church. The reformation failed badly, only adding problems to an existing problem.

So Jesus decided to start all over again. Jesus decided to restore the true church, so he called a new prophet, gave him priesthood authority, called new apostles to be special witnesses of himself. The true foundation now existed again. Non-existent for over 1800 years, was restored to the earth again. New scripture of how Jesus brought about and grew this new, true church was forthcoming to witness what was happening.

Revelation was forth coming to enlighten the people of God and bring about a major change. So over 180 years, there are over 16,000,000 living church members that believe in Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone of the foundation, with apostles and prophets filling out the rest of the foundation, just like Paul told us was the true foundation of the original church. You can actually recognize the true church again, if you will.

So JS did not start his own church, Jesus started it, and chose JS to be the first prophet. 'A rock cut out of the mountain without hands, is rolling forth to fill the whole earth'. That is the mantra of the Mormon church and it will eventually take the testimony of Jesus and the gospel to the entire earth. Actually it will take a combined effort of all the Christian missionaries to spread the testimony of Jesus and the gospel to the whole earth.
 
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Peter1000

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Going by the standard above, where has Thomas Monson written that he had a visit from Jesus Christ and Jesus gave him instructions? Would about the rest of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve?
Thomas Monson has not yet, at least I am not aware of any writings of his experience with Jesus Christ, therefore I take back what I wrote about Athanasius.

At least one of the prophets (Lorenzo Snow) has written his experience about meeting Jesus in the temple and being instructed of him.

Brother Snow was quite old at the time Wilford Woodruff was ready to pass away. He was the senior apostle and would become the next prophet.

He went to the temple to pray and ask God to allow this calling to pass over him, because how was he going to be able to do the heavy duties required of the prophet, since he was old and would pass away before many years.

Jesus came to him in person in the temple and let him know that he would be the next prophet. He was also instructed that Jesus would make it so that his strength would be such that he would be able to assume the exhausting duties of the prophet of God.

He turned out to be a great man and a great prophet.
 
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NYCGuy

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Thomas Monson has not yet, at least I am not aware of any writings of his experience with Jesus Christ, therefore I take back what I wrote about Athanasius.

At least one of the prophets (Lorenzo Snow) has written his experience about meeting Jesus in the temple and being instructed of him.

Brother Snow was quite old at the time Wilford Woodruff was ready to pass away. He was the senior apostle and would become the next prophet.

He went to the temple to pray and ask God to allow this calling to pass over him, because how was he going to be able to do the heavy duties required of the prophet, since he was old and would pass away before many years.

Jesus came to him in person in the temple and let him know that he would be the next prophet. He was also instructed that Jesus would make it so that his strength would be such that he would be able to assume the exhausting duties of the prophet of God.

He turned out to be a great man and a great prophet.

Thank you. Did the last prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, write about having a visit from Jesus Christ and being instructed by Him? Or is Lorenzo Snow the only one? Also, is this being applied only to the President, or to all 15 of the Mormon apostles throughout the history of the church?

I should also note that in Catholicism, we have many stories of people being visited by Heavenly messengers.
 
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Peter1000

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Thank you. Did the last prophet, Gordon B. Hinckley, write about having a visit from Jesus Christ and being instructed by Him? Or is Lorenzo Snow the only one? Also, is this being applied only to the President, or to all 15 of the Mormon apostles throughout the history of the church?

I should also note that in Catholicism, we have many stories of people being visited by Heavenly messengers.
I love the idea of people being visited by heavenly messengers.

I will do some more research, but to my immediate knowledge only JS and LS have written down their experiences with Jesus.

The answer is yes, I would expect all the apostles of the church from the time of JS to now, to have had a discussion with Jesus Christ. In order to be a special witness, you must know him personally.
 
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dzheremi

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Indeed he is, as are all our bishops. So he was really a bishop, not an apostle. Do you understand the difference between an apostles, who has world-wide authority and a bishop, who have local authority only?

Yes, a bishop has authority over his local diocese, but who has the authority to establish the Church in a particular place, as the apostles and disciples did? The bishop. For example, when our little Coptic community in New Mexico first began to meet over twenty years ago, there was no ecclesiastical structure in the state, so they couldn't get their own priest to hold their own liturgies. In the meantime, they wrote to the nearest Coptic Orthodox bishop and with his blessing and the blessing of his Greek Orthodox counterpart (since the Greek Orthodox are not in communion with us), they were allowed to be received by the local Greek Orthodox clergy until such time that they were enough in numbers to get their own priest(s) and start having their own liturgies. And when that time came, the priest was sent by order of the bishop, and hence the Church was established in some place where it hadn't been before.

This is the standard pattern, as you can also see by looking at the Coptic Orthodox Church in Bolivia, the Syriac Orthodox Church in Guatemala, and so on. Nothing is done without the bishop, as the bishop has the authority from the apostles themselves who, after all, ordained bishops to carry on their work.

Bishops are the legitimate successors to the apostles, not some modern day 'prophets' unrecognized by the Church. If this weren't the case, we wouldn't see the historical examples that we see, wherein (e.g.) Montanism and other 'new prophecy' movements were rejected by the Church. (Montanism arose in the late 2nd century; NYCGuy is very correct that this 'new prophecy' stuff has been going on for a long time, and has always been rejected by the Christian faithful.)

When the apostles lived, they would go around the world setting up churches, and they would ordain a bishop in a particular local area to be the leader of the local church.

Yep.

So world-wide vs local. A major difference between an apostle and a bishop. Athenasius was ordained to be the bishop of Alexandria. He was not ordained to be a world-wide apostle.

Yes, St. Athanasius was the Bishop/Pope of Alexandria, and his canonical territorial authority was thereby limited to Egypt and its related territories (Pentapolis/Libya, Nubia/Sudan). What you may not know, however, is that St. Athanasius was exiled several times during his papacy to areas of the Western Roman Empire (what is now Trier, Germany, and later to Gaul in the area of Holland/Belgium). Being received in those places as an honored guest of the bishop (at that time, Maximinus of Trier and Hosius of Cordoba, respectively), he continued to compose his annual festal letters, whereby the faithful were informed of, among other things, the date of the celebration of Easter for that year. (The historical role of the Bishop/Pope of Alexandria in determining the date of Easter goes back to the second century, even before St. Athanasius, and is the reason why part of his traditional title includes the phrase "Judge of the Universe" -- this is not to be understood literally, as that only applies to Christ, but uses "judge" in the old sense of "determine", as he determined the date for the celebration of Easter at a time when that was actually quite a sticking point in Christianity; see the Quartodeciman controversy for more on this.)

So it's not like "Oh, you're not in your See, therefore you have no authority." He was the guest of other bishops while residing in their canonical territories, but he still exercised his authority in those matters in which he customarily would have done so (as in the calculation of the date of Easter), and importantly continued to be recognized in exile by bishops of East and West as the sole legitimate Patriarch of the Egyptian Church. A bishop does not cease to be a bishop when he is traveling/exiled/otherwise away from his see.

So in a sense, I understand and agree with you (we OO are not like Roman Catholics; we do not have, desire, or recognize a "universal bishop" over the all Christians). In another sense, however, you are circumscribing the powers of the bishops in a manner which contradicts the historical witness of their authority, as in the case of HH St. Athanasius the Apostolic. (And he is far from the only example that could be marshaled to make this point; he just happens to be the one we are talking about, but similar incidents involving, e.g., HH St. Dionysius' involvement in the Donatist controversy in North Africa are instructive -- this was a controversy involving the Roman churches of Carthage and elsewhere in North Africa, which brought St. Cyprian into conflict with the Roman Popes of his day, Stephen and Xystus, and yet HH St. Dionysius saw fit to communicate with all involved in order to strengthen the position of the party he felt was correct, as is right among bishops seeking conciliar agreement to avoid schism; in that case, it was a bit of clean up work, as I believe the affected churches had already been excommunicated at some earlier point, but the lesson still stands: A bishop's canonical territory outlines the areas under his direct control and administration; it does not limit him from being involved in matters outside of his diocese, so long as he respects that he does not have the authority to run another bishop's diocese.)

He and his followers gave him the name of 'the honorific', the apostolic',

I think you misread this portion of my post: the honorific is 'St. Athanasius the Apostolic', rather than his more common title in the West (I believe it's 'the Great', but RC/EO may correct me on this, if I'm wrong).

which is like getting an 'honorary degree' from some college, but was really not a true degree.

Uh...it's an honorific. Honorifics themselves don't bestow any authority or particular rank upon the people holding them, but are generally given in recognition of the role the person receiving them is already in. Read: Roman Catholics didn't all wake up one day and decide to call Pope Francis "Your Holiness" -- that's the conventionalized way of addressing him in their church. In the Coptic Orthodox Church, bishops are addressed as "Sayedna" -- literally 'our master'. The Pope is addressed as "Sayedna al-Baba _____" (name), literally "Our master, Pope ____". The Pope gets the same honorific as a bishop because in Orthodox ecclesiology, the Pope is a bishop. (It's not really a separate 'office' like it is in Roman Catholicism, but rather the name of the most senior bishop of the Church.)

Jane is right. One of the special events in an apostles life is that they were a witness of the living Christ. Everyone up to Paul had actually lived with Jesus so they automatically were special witnesses. Paul, however, was not a companion of Jesus, so in order for Paul to be a special witness, Jesus had to appear to him and did so on the way to Damascus. This interview was short and sweet, but just what an apostle needed to be callled an apostle. So the model is set. You must know Jesus personally in order to be an apostle.

Okay. By that definition, we have many, many apostles. Most famously, St. Bishoy, the fourth century desert father, saw Christ on many occasions, and is known to have both carried Him upon his back, and to have washed His feet. Other saints as well, such as St. Shenouda the Archimandrite (my baptismal saint) are recorded as having seen and spoken with Christ personally. Does that make either of them apostles? Apparently according to Mormonism it would, but they're not referred to in that way in the Church they actually belong to.

d7ef431daec16ac6c2b4f957078f9324.jpg

(Pictured: depiction of St. Bishoy washing Christ's feet; Monastery of St. Mina, Mariut, Egypt)

So the question is not how many churches he set up outside of his area of authority, as a bishop of Alexandria, the question did he have an interview with Jesus Christ and was he called to be an apostle and given authority to go out on a world-wide apostolic mission to establish churches?

Neither of those are the question. He is a bishop. All bishops are given the authority to go on a world-wide mission and establish churches, because that's what the apostles did, and the bishops are the sucessors to the apostles.

So in any of his writings, did he mention that he had a visit from Jesus Christ and Jesus gave him instructions?

Not that I'm aware of (though I don't have any of his letters on hand at the moment), but that does not matter. The Christian Church does not function according to Mormon definitions of how a church should operate. I might as well ask you which of your community's 'apostles' can trace his lineage back to the twelve or to the seventy, as Christian bishops can, but that would be silly for much the same reason as your question is silly: it is self-evident that the Mormon church does not work that way, so the fact that they can't does mean anything beyond the fact that, according to Christianity, Mormons do not actually have bishops (which is obvious enough, since none were ordained by bishops of actual Christian churches, since Mormonism is not a part of Christianity, but is its own religion somewhat rooted or connected to Christianity by virtue of making use of its scriptures and terminology).
 
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NYCGuy

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Neither of those are the question. He is a bishop. All bishops are given the authority to go on a world-wide mission and establish churches, because that's what the apostles did, and the bishops are the sucessors to the apostles.

The Mormon idea is that Apostles are different from bishops. Bishops are local authorities, with authority over a local congregation (somewhat equivalent to the parish priest who presides over their congregation). Apostles on the other hand are viewed as general authorities, who have authority over the entire church. The Mormon claim is that once the original apostles died, there no longer was that general authority, since the bishops, in their view, only have local authority.
 
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dzheremi

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Why did JS start his own church? He didn't. He went into that grove of trees to find out which churh he should join.

Yes, that is the Mormon origin story, but I'm not asking about that. It is clear enough that Joseph Smith actually did start his own church, in that the Mormon religion did not exist before him, nor did it arise directly from a schism within any one established church or communion that existed in his time.

The origin story itself contains enough information to establish that this is literally what happened without contesting whether or not he was actually visited or instructed by Christ , so that's really immaterial.

He was instructed by Jesus Christ to join none of them. IOW the true church of Jesus Christ did not exist on the earth. The original church, which melded into the Catholic and Orthodox churches was corrupted so badly that you could no longer recognize the original church. The reformation failed badly, only adding problems to an existing problem.

And so I ask, again (and would really like an actual answer this time), if the multiplicity of denominations or churches which came out of the reformation only "add(ed) problems to an existing problem", as you have put it, how does adding one more into the mix (the Mormon church) do anything but further the apostasy? As you'd have it, you're in a kind of Goldilocks situation where everyone else is wrong, but since your guy and only your guy is magically (through a vision of Jesus, I guess) correct, then it's okay. Do you see why this does not work as an actual answer to my question? It ignores what literally happened -- as in, what is indisputable according to the historical record -- in favor of a story that Mormons take on faith. Well, I am not a Mormon and I would like a real answer as to how you're not all shooting yourselves in the foot by claiming that the fact that there are so many different churches/communions proves that the Church is in apostasy, when you yourselves make up yet another of the many, many churches in the world -- and a rather late one at that.

Let me give you an example of what I mean by 'a real answer', so that you do not respond with the reasonable criticism that you are a Mormon, so of course you believe in the Mormon origin story/JS' vision (which I don't fault you for pointing out, in this context; I have repeated over and over that I do not want to make Mormons argue as though they are not Mormons, and I mean that).

I can tell you, irrespective of my own faith's claims of divine and apostolic origin and doctrinal correctness, exactly where my Church/communion came from. Historically speaking, the Coptic Orthodox Church is the Church of the native Egyptian population which was preached to by St. Mark in the Greek city of Alexandria, which had native Egyptian (ethnically non-Greek) quarters such as Rhakotis and vigorous Greek, Coptic, and bilingual Coptic (Greek-speaking Copts, e.g., St. Athanasius) communities. It spread from Alexandria around all of Egypt to the point where, by the fourth century at the latest, the Christian population outnumbered the preexisting Pagan and Jewish populations, and the pagan temples were closed. This was its status for 451 years until the Council of Chalcedon happened, at which time the Egyptians present found that they could not agree with the theological formula presented there in the Tome of Leo, due to their preexisting allegiance to the Orthodox Miaphysite Christology most famously expressed by St. Cyril of Alexandria (and accepted previously at the Council of Ephesus, via his twelve anathemas against Nestorius, and in his other writings such as That Christ is One), which was itself part of the reason for the preexisting conflicts between the Alexandrians and the Antiochians (see: St. Cyril and John of Antioch). Hence, we have been separated from the Western, Greco-Roman churches since that time (other churches in our communion, most notably the Armenians, took quite a bit longer to come to reject the dyophysitism of the Tome, and did so as well due to their own previous experience with that Christology in their conflicts with the Nestorians in Persia; Chalcedon and the Tome were formally rejected by the Armenians at their synod in Dvin in 506).

That, in short and phrased in completely secular/historical terms, is how my Church came to be its own thing, as a communion separate from the Chalcedonians. Obviously since Chalcedon long postdates the founding of the Church in Egypt, this is a later development, but the point is that the roots of today's situation extend long into history, such that it is possible to describe why we exist as our own Church without having to invoke some kind of special revelation from God (beyond the sense that you could say that we believe that we are following the faith established by God by sticking to our traditional Christology and ways of being Christian, but that's neither here nor there; the Chalcedonians would say the same thing, and something that could be claimed by everyone isn't very strong; the Chalcedonians have their polemics, and we have ours, and obviously we both still remain separate for essentially the same reasons as we always have: "accept the Tome!" "No." "Com'on, accept it!" "Nooooo!", etc. gets deadly boring after the first thousand years or so.)

That is a real answer. These things literally happened, and you don't need to be of any particular confession to admit that they did, since that's just what the historical record tells us. The only thing that changes according to your confession is which side you think made the right decision vis-a-vis the Tome and the Council.

I would like something like that from Mormons. Something that doesn't rely on Mormon faith claims in order to explain why Mormonism exists when, according to Mormon logic concerning the apostasy (more churches = more corruption = more apostasy), it really shouldn't.
 
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NYCGuy

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I would like something like that from Mormons. Something that doesn't rely on Mormon faith claims in order to explain why Mormonism exists when, according to Mormon logic concerning the apostasy (more churches = more corruption = more apostasy), it really shouldn't.

And, of course, the Mormon "restoration" has resulted in many churches besides the one headquartered in SLC.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_denominations_in_the_Latter_Day_Saint_movement
Another apostasy? :scratch:
 
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Alla27

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Mormonism is quite simply one of many claimed restorations/"further light and knowledge"/new revelation/etc since Jesus Christ established His Church in ancient times. This is honestly how Catholics and Orthodox view Mormonism. We have literally seen this sort of thing since over a thousand years ago. It isn't special, unique, or anything of the sort, simply yet another innovation from man.
Oh, it is unique. None of those who claim restoration and revelations have Quorum of Twelve living Apostles + Quorum of Seventy + Temples + new Scriptures like the Book of Mormon + grow the way Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS grow + help the way Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS helps. None of them have the greatest women organization in the world like Relief Society. None of them do important work - salvation of those who died and did NOT have an opportunity to know the truth in THIS life. God is good. Oh, He is so good. He loves living and the dead.
 
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NYCGuy

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Oh, it is unique. None of those who claim restoration and revelations have Quorum of Twelve living Apostles + Quorum of Seventy + Temples + new Scriptures like the Book of Mormon + grow the way Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS grow + help the way Church of JESUS CHRIST of LDS helps. None of them have the greatest women organization in the world like Relief Society. None of them do important work - salvation of those who died and did NOT have an opportunity to know the truth in THIS life. God is good. Oh, He is so good. He loves living and the dead.

So you're saying that none of those that claim a restoration claim the Mormon restoration. Right. Using your logic Jehovah's Witnesses would therefore say that none of the other churches that claim a restoration claim the Jehovah's Witnesses restoration. The point is, throughout Christian history, right from the very beginning, the Church has seen numerous instances of people claiming revelations and innovations that purport to bring back the "truth" that was lost. Mormonism is therefore nothing unique in that regard, being yet one more in a long line of purported restorations of lost truth. The Church established by Jesus Christ is still here, and has seen it all.
 
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Alla27

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So you're saying that none of those that claim a restoration claim the Mormon restoration. Right. Using your logic Jehovah's Witnesses would therefore say that none of the other churches that claim a restoration claim the Jehovah's Witnesses restoration. The point is, throughout Christian history, right from the very beginning, the Church has seen numerous instances of people claiming revelations and innovations that purport to bring back the "truth" that was lost. Mormonism is therefore nothing unique in that regard, being yet one more in a long line of purported restorations of lost truth. The Church established by Jesus Christ is still here, and has seen it all.
I am saying that Church of Jesus Christ in the first century as unique as His Church today. In the first century His Church had living on earth 12 Apostles . Today His Church has 12 living on earth Apostles. In the first century His Church was producing new scriptures(Word of God), the same happens today in His Church. Heavens are opened today as they were opened in the first century. ONLY Church of JESUS CHRIST has LIVING prophets on earth who belong to the Quorum of 12.
 
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dzheremi

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By that logic, ONLY the Roman Catholic Church has the Roman Pope, ONLY the Eastern Orthodox Church has the Ecumenical Patriarch, ONLY the Oriental Orthodox Church has the Coptic Orthodox Pope, ONLY the Armenian Church has the Armenian Catholicos, etc. Is any of this supposed to mean something? They are all unique aspects of the churches under consideration, but they don't really mean anything beyond saying that a particular church is organized in a particular way or has this or that particular leader and not another particular leader. So what?

You're basically saying only Mormonism is Mormonism, which...yeah...that's what NYCGuy already said: "So you're saying that none of those that claim a restoration claim the Mormon restoration. Right." That doesn't tell us anything, but you're making your argument too specific to be able to say much of anything, anyway. Other groups claim to have living prophets, but since they're not part of this "Quorum of 12" that only the Mormons have (since they made it up in the first place), they don't count. That's nice. Well I only recognize my own Church's bishops, so that means...something, I'm sure!

Oh...what's that? It doesn't mean anything in this context, and is in fact exactly what you would expect me to say, since I'm Oriental Orthodox and not anything else? So I can't actually appeal to my own belief in my Church as though it proves what I claim about it just because that's what I happen to believe, since that's laughably circular logic? Huh. Okay then. Nevermind.

If Mormons are going to make claims against every other church on the planet -- which they do, because they have to, because otherwise they wouldn't be restorationists -- then they should really learn the difference between making an argument and stating a belief. You can make an argument in favor of or against a belief, but that doesn't mean that beliefs can stand in for arguments. It doesn't seem like our resident Mormon posters understand this. Whether it's fatboys' "Can't you see that XYZ" (not an argument), or now Alla27's "Only Mormonism has XYZ" (also not argument), it doesn't seem that they're actually involved in apologetics so much as...I don't know what you'd call it...pointing to stuff, I guess? "Mormonism has things!" isn't an actual argument. We see your things. They're not convincing because they don't actually tie into any kind of cohesive argument for Mormonism in particular. They're just things that Mormonism has, or (more usually) things that Mormons claim that Mormonism has (like all this "Reformed Egyptian", Ancient Hebrew Indians nonsense, which at least sometimes involves actual evidence, even though it has never been evidence in favor of what Mormons claim).

And keep in mind how the ultimate defense being made by Christians vis-a-vis Mormons is of differing strength by several orders of magnitude. For the Christian, or at least the traditional Christian (Orthodox, Catholics, I guess traditional Anglicans and other high church Protestants), to refute the Mormon claim of 'apostasy' involves showing that, contrary to what Mormonism says, the practices and theology which are in dispute (because they don't match Mormonism, I guess) can be traced back to the apostles themselves, and hence cannot be evidence of apostasy unless one is willing to call the apostles themselves apostates. This is easy enough (though still takes some doing) because we have the writings of the apostles themselves in the Bible, the writings of at least some of their disciples like St. Polycarp, St. Ignatius, and so on, and all of the other early sources which really do show what was normative according to the earliest Christians; the ones who learned from the apostles themselves, and carried that knowledge with them into the next generation.

Mormons, on the other hand, have the task of somehow showing that their beliefs are in line with the apostles, despite the fact that all of the earliest writings that we do have show no affinity to Mormonism. They seem to know this, and hence they preach a 'restoration' of the Church of Christ, which they say was 'taken from the earth', despite the fact that there is no period from today back into the apostolic period itself where there was not witness to the normative doctrines, practices, and boundaries of Christian life. And I can say that precisely because we have all the historical resources that we do have, which Mormons have to attempt to deal with by casting doubt on even the first Christians...the very ones whose faith they claim to be a restoration of!

It's a bit ridiculous, isn't it?

Actual Christian: "Ignatius of Antioch bears witness to XYZ."

Mormon: "Who's that? Some sinful maaaaan?"

Actual Christian: "Yes, but he was also a student of St. John the Apostle, and the third bishop of Antioch."

Mormon: "So? The Church was corrupt by then!"

Actual Christian: "The Church was corrupt by 67 AD, when St. Ignatius succeeded St. Evodius?"

Mormon: "Yes!"

Actual Christian: "You realize that this is entirely within the lifetimes of the apostles themselves? St. Ignatius was a bishop for almost the last four decades of his teacher St. John's life, and in fact died only a few years after St. John himself, circa 108 AD. He knew St. Peter, and according to some traditions (e.g., Eusebius) was personally chosen by St. Peter to succeed Evodius, as the outer range of dates for St. Peter's martyrdom actually overlaps that of Evodius by about a year. Similarly in Egypt, St. Mark was martyred in 68 AD but had given the reins of leadership to his successor, St. Ananios, as early as 62 AD, so the two were overlapping."

Mormon: "So what?"

Actual Christian: "Well, to believe what you are claiming is true, the so-called 'apostasy' would have necessarily included the apostles, since the men they ordained by their own hands and who served during their lifetimes apparently bungled it so badly that the Church was completely lost even under the first generation which was coterminous with the apostolic period itself."

Mormon: "Yeah...what's the problem with that?"

Actual Christian: "You don't think it paints the apostles in a rather bad light?"

Mormon: "No. I'm Mormon! We're all about apostles. We just didn't fall into error like you guys did, but instead restored the Church as it was meant to be."

Actual Christian: "And how can you know that?"

Mormon: "Because we are the restoration of the Church that Jesus started."

Actual Christian: (Bangs his or her head against the wall until sweet, sweet unconsciousness is reached. Now this conversation can end!)
 
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