For all eternity - "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before God to Worship"

[BobRyan]

Is 66:23 "From new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all MANKIND come before Me to worship"

BobRyan said: ↑
Perpetual on TWO cycles - the weekly AND the monthly cycle - as stated 'in the text'

Open Heart said: ↑
Perpetual as in all the time. Sabbath to Sabbath means all the days in between just as 1;00 to 4:00 means all the time in between.

Which would be total nonsense as "from 1:00pm to 4:00pm AND FROM 2:00pm to 3:00pm" -- by carefully glossing over the detail "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath" as clearly identifying TWO cycles - not one constant ... you get to the never-seen-in-the-Bible idea that "REMAIN" is to be wrenched into "from new moon to new moon AND FROM Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind COME BEFORE Me to worship". -- ( as if the Bible ever used such a back flip.)

Even your own fellow pro-sunday scholars admit to this being "two cycles" and not "one idea of -- REMAIN"



================================

Isaiah 66:23

Jamieson Fausset Brown

23. Literally, "As often as the new moon (shall be) in its own new moon," that is, every month (Zec 14:16).
Sabbath--which is therefore perpetually obligatory on earth.
all flesh-- (Ps 65:2; 72:11).
before me--at Jerusalem (Jer 3:16, 17).

http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=isa&chapter=066


==================================
Matthew Henry Isaiah 66:23

6. That the public worship of God in religious assemblies shall be carefully and constantly attended upon by all that are thus brought as an offering to the Lord, Isaiah 66:23. This is described in expressions suited to the Old-Testament dispensation, to show that though the ceremonial law should be abolished, and the temple service should come to an end, yet God should be still as regularly, constantly, and acceptably worshipped as ever. Heretofore only Jews went up to appear before God, and they were bound to attend only three times a year, and the males only; but now all flesh, Gentiles as well as Jews, women as well as men, shall come and worship before God, in his presence, though not in his temple at Jerusalem, but in religious assemblies dispersed all the world over, which shall be to them as the tabernacle of meeting was to the Jews.

God will in them record his name, and, though but two or three come together, he will be among them, will meet them, and bless them. And they shall have the benefit of these holy convocations frequently, every new moon and every Sabbath, not, as formerly, at the three annual feasts only.
Of course they have to admit that this is "two cycles" and not "one idea of REMAIN all the time before the LORD" -- because the Bible already uses that form.

...

============================

Of course they have to admit that this is "two cycles" -- and not "one idea of REMAIN all the time before the LORD" -- because the Bible already uses that form.

...

1. It shows that OT authors and readers had the concept of 7th day Sabbath applicable to "all mankind" in Is 66:23.
2. Reading the text we have admit that this Sabbath observance will be binding for all mankind for all of eternity even after the cross.
3. Is 56 - (same book, same author) is affirming gentiles who keep the Sabbath - as honoring God.
4. It is only when the second coming happens and the New Earth and New Heavens are established in Rev 21 that all the wicked have perished and so "All mankind" will be worshiping God, all will be Christians, all will be keeping the Sabbath not just the "Remnant" or "Israel" -- the "FEW" of Matt 7 keeping it on earth as Christians are by far the minority in this world. And of course at the second coming the man-denominations of Christianity become one united group.
5. And of course while the "new moon" is a physical "event" that takes place on a cycle - God's Holy "Sabbath" is a "practice" a "convention" and "observance" not a physical cycle in the heavens - so to worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" would require that "convention" to still exist.

This is true no matter if one is pro-Sunday or not.

I think all sides can see this point.

This post seems to be taken from a previous discussion, so it's like stepping into a room to hear only a portion of a larger exchange.

Then use the information to address the 5 points in the OP or do you just agree with them -- with no comment?

However, I'll add my thoughts to it. The observance is regarding the Millenium, with the heavenly Jerusalem being (visibly) above the earthly Jerusalem.

In Revelation 20 and 21 that happens after the 1000 years - after the millennium is over.

The point is that it is certainly after the cross and it is certainly for all eternity and it is certainly all mankind in complete harmony, in complete unity of worship to the One True God.

And that only happens after the 1000 years have ended.

The people still of flesh bodies will by contrast be active with daily life and required to attend the restored and glorious earthly Temple building and see the visible glorified LORD Jesus Christ sitting on his earthly throne and worship Him on the appointed day from New Moon to New Moon which refers to a particular yearly Jewish Feast Day

[/quote[/quote]

1. New moons happen every month - there is no "yearly new moon" in Leviticus 23.

2. There is nothing in Isaiah 66 or Rev 20-21 about 'still have flesh bodies - or don't still have them".

,.. I suspect that it refers to "Rosh HaShanah" which is the commemoration of the creation of Adam

Rosh HaShanah is the feast of trumpets - 10 days of awe just before the great Day of Atonement - nothing of that sort going on in Isaiah 66 New Earth or in Rev 20 or Revelation 21.

And also the command is that all people attend from week to week.

From "Sabbath to Sabbath" - because it is a day of holy convocation

So there is God's own Genesis 1-2:3 weekly cycle with His own "Holy Day of the LORD" Isaiah 58:13 day which is a "day of holy convocation" Leviticus 23:2-4.

And there is also the monthly cycle with a day of holy convocation - from new moon to new moon.

All the other "details" you mention are logistics none-too-big for God - and not at all in the texts.[/quote]

I have chosen to address what I am inclined to address.

You can ignore whatever texts you wish.

BobRyan previous post - 5. And of course while the "new moon" is a physical "event" that takes place on a cycle - God's Holy "Sabbath" is a "practice" a "convention" and "observance" not a physical cycle in the heavens - so to worship "from Sabbath to Sabbath" would require that "convention" to still exist. (unquote)

You contradict yourself. You say that it is a physical event cycle, then you say that it isn't.

just not in real life.

In real life the rotation of the earth defines day.
The orbit of the moon for month.
The orbit of the earth for year.

7 rotations of the earth is a physical event - but it is not cyclic the way the rotation of the earth as one day is.

Obviously.

So we have the 7 day week - by divine command and not because it takes 7 days for the moon to orbit the earth.

As we all know.

 

[W2L]

So then Revelation 21 comes to mind.



Colossians 2 to refers to annual holy days in Lev 23 - observed only in animal-sacrifice - pointing forward to Christ.

And it also speaks about "making stuff up" in form of "Commandments of men" and "self mad religion"

Now for those not inclined to ignore every detail in Colossians 2 - we have

In this following post it is pointed out that in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)


In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

Read the scripture bob, it says Sabbath is a shadow, its not referring to the Pharisees man made traditions which Christ rebuked, its referring to being a carnal Christian verses a spiritual one. Do you think Sabbath restrictions will endure for eternity? Sabbath will but not its restrictions. There is no sun in heaven, no time either, no Saturday.

 

[W2L]

@BobRyan

Look here Bob, this scripture is the qualifier, it proves that paul is talking about legitimate Sabbath restrictions and not just traditions added by man. See, they are a shadow of whats to come, and that cannot be said about man made traditions

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[W2L]

I'm done. Its pointless reiterating the same thing over and over.

 

[BobRyan]

@BobRyan

Look here Bob, this scripture is the qualifier, it proves that paul is talking about legitimate Sabbath restrictions and not just traditions added by man. See, they are a shadow of whats to come

All the Lev 23 annual Sabbaths were shadows of what is to come and all had restrictions.

They were shadows because unlike the Genesis 2:1-3 weekly Sabbath - the annual Sabbaths were given only after the fall of mankind and are observed in "animal sacrifice and offerings" that in Hebrews 10 -- all point to Christ.

Adam and Eve were killing no animals before the fall of mankind.

You have not made any point showing that this is the weekly Sabbath.

And man-made-traditions can be added to anything even to "Honor your father and mother" as we see in Mark 7:6-13.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

paul is talking about legitimate Sabbath restrictions and not just traditions added by man. See, they are a shadow of whats to come, and that cannot be said about man made traditions

This misses the mark, if you actually think that YHWH'S 7th DAY SABBATH was any kind of tradition added by men.
Perhaps there was a previous post I missed that expounds more on this,
but it is YHWH WHO SANCTIFIED the 7th DAY and made it HOLY. Not men.
Yes, later men messed up. (as they always do)
They even ADMITTED boasting that they changed the Sabbath on purpose, and then claimed to be divine representatives with 'proof' because others followed them instead of following Y'SHUA.

 

[W2L]

This misses the mark, if you actually think that YHWH'S 7th DAY SABBATH was any kind of tradition added by men.
Perhaps there was a previous post I missed that expounds more on this,
but it is YHWH WHO SANCTIFIED the 7th DAY and made it HOLY. Not men.
Yes, later men messed up. (as they always do)
They even ADMITTED boasting that they changed the Sabbath on purpose, and then claimed to be divine representatives with 'proof' because others followed them instead of following Y'SHUA.

I never implied such a thing. I said that the Sabbath "shadow" of col 2 is not a tradition of man, but is in fact the legitimate Sabbath commanded by God. My point however is that its just a shadow of something better.

 

[W2L]

The saying "These are a shadow of the things that were to come" refers not to man made tradition but instead refers to a sign of Christ himself.

Bob is trying to suggest the shadow of Col 2 is the traditions of Pharisees, i.e. washing cups and such.

Washing cups is a shadow of something better? Really? Is that what we believe? Washing cups was a shadow pointing to Christ? No. Sin atonements and Passover pointed to Christ, not dirty dishes.

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

 

[BobRyan]

The saying "These are a shadow of the things that were to come" refers not to man made tradition but instead refers to a sign of Christ himself.

Which is not the point being debated.

The point being debated in the Col 2 "Shadows" discussion is whether simply ignoring the details Col 2 regarding man made traditions and "Commandments of men" will ever suffice to bolster the attack on the Bible Sabbath.

Bob is trying to suggest the shadow of Col 2 is the traditions of Pharisees

Just not in real life.

In real life - you are "quoting you". and then sticking "Bob is trying to ... " at the front of it.

I don't mind defending my own statements - but I am not inclined to defend whatever you invent as a position for me to suddenly take up.

Real life does not work that way.

 

[BobRyan]

Col 2:17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Indeed - the animal sacrifices in the Lev 23 shadow Sabbaths pointing to the sacrifice of Christ - were shadows predicting that future event.

Since there is some interest in Col 2 --- on this Isaiah 66:23 thread -- we have:

Colossians 2 to refers to annual holy days in Lev 23 - observed only in animal-sacrifice - pointing forward to Christ.

And it also speaks about "making stuff up" in form of "Commandments of men" and "self mad religion"

---

In this following post it is pointed out that in Col 2 - we do not find Paul condemning the Bible, no condemnation of eating, no condemnation of drinking - and no condemnation of God's Sabbath as we find it in the Ten Commandments.

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.


Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 “Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!” 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)


In Mark 7:6-13 the Jews were simply "making stuff up" to get around one of the TEN Commandments - and of course Christ condemned them for that.

In Mark 2:19-22 they did it as well and Christ refuted their arguments.

Is it any wonder that in Col 2 the saints were contending with the same problem of man-made-doctrine and traditions -- "making stuff up"??

Not at all surprising.

 

[W2L]

Which is not the point being debated.

The point being debated is whether simply ignoring the details Col 2 regarding man made traditions and "Commandments of men" will ever suffice to bolster the attack on the Bible Sabbath.



Just not in real life.

In real life - you are "quoting you". and then sticking "Bob is trying to ... " at the front of it.

I don't mind defending my own statements - but I am not inclined to defend whatever you invent as a position for me to suddenly take up.

Real life does not work that way.

I suppose you will ignore the reference to circumcision too? Was that a man made tradition too? Paul is saying these are human rules because they are enforced by humans, not God. God canceled the Levitical code. You want to turn Col 2 into a rebuke of manmade tradition but its not. It refers to circumcision, food restrictions, and Sabbath.

Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by[c] Christ,

13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you[d] alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross.

 

[W2L]

Look here Bob, the letter written in "stone" was passing away. It was a shadow pointing to a reality. The shadow is gone but the reality abides forever.



2 Co 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?

13 We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I never implied such a thing. I said that the Sabbath "shadow" of col 2 is not a tradition of man, but is in fact the legitimate Sabbath commanded by God. My point however is that its just a shadow of something better.

GOOD! (for clarifying).

So, is our life here and now TODAY on earth just a shadow of what our lives will be in the new heaven and new earth ;
or is our life here the real thing, not a shadow ?

 

[W2L]

GOOD! (for clarifying).

So, is our life here and now TODAY on earth just a shadow of what our lives will be in the new heaven and new earth ;
or is our life here the real thing, not a shadow ?

I really don't know, but I do know Paul teaches Sabbath is just a shadow, and not to let Bob or anyone else judge me over it.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I really don't know, but I do know Paul teaches Sabbath is just a shadow, and not to let Bob or anyone else judge me over it.

No worries necessarily; rest in Y'SHUA.

Our lives are mere shadows now of what we will be.

The Sabbath also is a shadow of what is to be.

Both shadows are currently active and well on earth.

(unless or until we die, or Y'SHUA returns.)

 

[W2L]

No worries necessarily; rest in Y'SHUA.

Our lives are mere shadows now of what we will be.

The Sabbath also is a shadow of what is to be.

Both shadows are currently active and well on earth.

(unless or until we die, or Y'SHUA returns.)

Please don't condescend brother, its not needed. You see, the Sabbath shadow is NOT active, otherwise you could judge others by it, something Paul teaches you cant do.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Please don't condescend brother, its not needed. You see, the Sabbath shadow is NOT active, otherwise you could judge others by it, something Paul teaches you cant do.

That is your opinion, and other's opinion, and not
what has been revealed in YHWH'S WORD (in my opinion if you wish).

It is NOT to judge others by , I agree.

UNTIL and UNLESS someone is led by YHWH to honor HIS SABBATH,

they should not and cannot be rightly judged concerning this.

I did not honor YHWH'S Sabbath for over 20 years after finding out about it from HIM and (clearly) from HIS WORD.
That is where everything should be found out, not from men or man's traditions.

This is no problem in ecclesia. (it may well be a problem, obviously from a lot on just this forum, in denominations on either side).

 

[W2L]

That is your opinion, and other's opinion, and not
what has been revealed in YHWH'S WORD (in my opinion if you wish).

It is NOT to judge others by , I agree.

UNTIL and UNLESS someone is led by YHWH to honor HIS SABBATH,

they should not and cannot be rightly judged concerning this.

I did not honor YHWH'S Sabbath for over 20 years after finding out about it from HIM and (clearly) from HIS WORD.
That is where everything should be found out, not from men or man's traditions.

This is no problem in ecclesia. (it may well be a problem, obviously from a lot on just this forum, in denominations on either side).

You turn reason on its head by ignoring the weight of Col 2. As far as I am concerned honoring Sabbath is not about rest on Saturday. Its about the rest spoken of in Hebrews 4, which is "today" not Saturday. You also ignore the weight of Hebrews 4 as well. Jesus said come unto me all who are weary, I'LL GIVE YOU REST. So, given that promise, and the teaching in Col 2, and Hebrews 4, I see rest in Christ.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

We do not learn YHWH'S WAY by man's reasoning ability.
It is by REVELATION from the FATHER in heaven,
or not at all.

 

[W2L]

We do not learn YHWH'S WAY by man's reasoning ability.
It is by REVELATION from the FATHER in heaven,
or not at all.

I'm using scripture, not mans wisdom. God reasons too, correct?. Now, you again turn reason on its head by misrepresenting reason itself, as you twisted its meaning, confusing it with mans wisdom.