Sola Scriptura is overrated, the first christians didn't need it so neither do we.

[Meowzltov]

I'm quite familiar with the term. As Messianic Jews, I would question why you would lend weight to the "Oral Torah".

I use Oral Torah for the same reason that Kinzer does.

1. In order to observe Mosaic law in community with fellow Jews, I need Oral Torah to interpret the Law, i.e. what is work on Shabbat, when Shabbat begins and ends, etc.
2. Because Deuteronomy 17:8-13, Matthew 23:1-3, and Matthew 23:23 support using Oral Torah if you are going to keep Mosaic Law.

 

[ebedmelech]

When the gospels were written, people were IN the time of the various Pharisaical schools. The gospel authors assumed that their audience was familiar with the background and they were right. Today that is not true. Today's Christians need a little extra help.

Are you kidding? Basically you're saying that the Holy Spirit (who moved the authors to write), couldn't figure this out. The writers assumed NOTHING...you're assuming that. There's plenty of background on the Pharisees and Saducees in the gospels...and Jesus exposes most of it.

 

[ebedmelech]

I use Oral Torah for the same reason that Kinzer does.

1. In order to observe Mosaic law in community with fellow Jews, I need Oral Torah to interpret the Law, i.e. what is work on Shabbat, when Shabbat begins and ends, etc.
2. Because Deuteronomy 17:8-13, Matthew 23:1-3, and Matthew 23:23 support using Oral Torah if you are going to keep Mosaic Law.

The Oral Torah, is a misinterpretation of the Law. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 5! How many time did He say "You have heard it said"? When he did that He was speaking of the Oral Torah, which was loaded with additions that Moses never said. It ADDED to the Law. You *might* call it the Midrash.

Furthermore the Old Covenant is no more because Christ is the fulfilled it for us and instituted a New Covenant. Christ is the Shabbat rest. Why do you think He said this in Matthew 11:28:
28 “Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.

Then in Matthew 12:8:
8 For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath.

No need for the Shabbat after Christ!!!

 

[Meowzltov]

Are you kidding? Basically you're saying that the Holy Spirit (who moved the authors to write), couldn't figure this out. The writers assumed NOTHING...you're assuming that. There's plenty of background on the Pharisees and Saducees in the gospels...and Jesus exposes most of it.

The holy spirit inspires, but the Bible is still filtered through the intellects, culture, and experiences of the men who wrote it. They were not simply secretaries taking dictation.

 

[Meowzltov]

Furthermore the Old Covenant is no more because Christ is the fulfilled it for us and instituted a New Covenant.

Actually Christ said the Law would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[ebedmelech]

The holy spirit inspires, but the Bible is still filtered through the intellects, culture, and experiences of the men who wrote it. They were not simply secretaries taking dictation.

Not according to scripture Open Heart. Take 2 Timothy 3:16, 17:
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Then I suggest you ask Peter about it. It's Peter who wrote in 2 Peter 1:20, 21:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

So the point is...in spite of "intellects, culture, and experiences....they wrote what God wanted them to write. The sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be.

Remember what Jesus told them in Matthew 10:19, 20:
19 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

The point then is God worked through them what to write and it is HIS WORD...not theirs.

 

[ebedmelech]

Actually Christ said the Law would not pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

Not quite. You neglect what He clearly said...Matthew 5:17, 18:
17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Christ accomplished the fulfillment of the Law! As Paul the apostle makes it clear in Romans 10:4
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Once again in Galatians 3:23-25
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

That is what Christ did Open Heart...He fulfilled the Law for EVERYONE who believes!!!

Matthew 7:23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

You skipped over quite a bit to jump to that...which make it OUT of context. How about you go to that passage and start at verse 15?

 

[SolomonVII]

The laws on rape have very little meaning or relevance for those who are not inclined or in any way interested in raping in the first place.

Likewise, for the faithful they are no longer under the law, because the ways of faith already guide them to a higher purpose.

Law defines what sin is. Faith defines where goodness is.

 

[Meowzltov]

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Is all accomplished? NO! The age of the Church is not yet done, the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet come in, and Christ has yet to return and judge the earth.

 

[Meowzltov]

Not according to scripture Open Heart. Take 2 Timothy 3:16, 17:
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

Then I suggest you ask Peter about it. It's Peter who wrote in 2 Peter 1:20, 21:
20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation,
21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.

So the point is...in spite of "intellects, culture, and experiences....they wrote what God wanted them to write. The sooner you accept that, the better off you'll be.

Remember what Jesus told them in Matthew 10:19, 20:
19 But when they hand you over, do not worry about how or what you are to say; for it will be given you in that hour what you are to say.
20 For it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.

The point then is God worked through them what to write and it is HIS WORD...not theirs.

Sorry, but NONE of the verses you quoted mean that God dictated it to them like a boss to his secretary.

 

[ebedmelech]

Is all accomplished? NO! The age of the Church is not yet done, the fullness of the Gentiles has not yet come in, and Christ has yet to return and judge the earth.

This is where you don't get the meaning of what Jesus was saying. Our Lord accomplished everything in the Law, which is the Old Covenant. He did that and was without sin...and instituted a New Covenant. Indeed all was accomplished Open Heart. Have you read Hebrews 9 and 10? I encourage you to do that.

Sorry, but NONE of the verses you quoted mean that God dictated it to them like a boss to his secretary.

No one said that either...that's you missing the point that God "MOVED" the NT apostles to write just as He MOVED the OT prophets to write.

That word MOVED doesn't mean *dictated*, it means God, by the Holy Spirit carried them as they wrote. The word of God is the measure...through the Prophets, Apostles and Jesus. How many times did Jesus say IT IS WRITTEN?

 

[Meowzltov]

This is where you don't get the meaning of what Jesus was saying. Our Lord accomplished everything in the Law,

He didn't say "Until all is accomplished in the Law." He said, "Until ALL is accomplished."

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Writings understood with the help of the Holy Spirit.

Yep, what becomes a problem is when personal interpretation is insisted as universal application.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The first Christians had the Apostles available.

The Canon wasn't agreed upon until centuries after their death, what did the Christians without the apostles have?

 

[Albion]

The Canon wasn't agreed upon until centuries after their death, what did the Christians without the apostles have?

The books of the Bible, but not bound into one volume.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The books of the Bible, but not bound into one volume.

Because you know how the earlier the church tradition started, the more books in the bible .. and occasionally their book of Psalms may have additional verses not in the protestant canon.

 

[Albion]

Because you know how the earlier the church tradition started, the more books in the bible .. and occasionally their book of Psalms may have additional verses not in the protestant canon.

Yes, there are about a dozen different versions of the Bible, depending upon which church we're talking about. It's not just a Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue. However, it's certainly not the case that the Christian churches of the ancient Middle East and Roman Empire had none or little of the Bible--or the NT, for that matter--prior to the canonization in the 4th century (and, therefore, must have followed "Tradition" instead).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Yes, there are about a dozen different versions of the Bible, depending upon which church we're talking about. It's not just a Roman Catholic vs. Protestant issue. However, it's certainly not the case that the Christian churches of the ancient Middle East and Roman Empire had none of the Bible--or the NT, for that matter--prior to the canonization in the 4th century.

They would have had an old testament collection of books, the Ethopian Eunuch began believing because someone came along side and explained the Isaiah passage to him.

I recall when I looked up the number of books in each canon, it seems that the older the tradition, the more books in the old testament.

 

[Albion]

They would have had an old testament collection of books, the Ethopian Eunuch began believing because someone came along side and explained the Isaiah passage to him.

Of course they had that, but they also had the books that became the New Testament, too.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Of course they had that, but they also had the books that became the New Testament, too.

But we're talking about there being more books in the bible, so the Old testament count is more relevant.