Sola scriptura

[Linet Kihonge]

The Pharisees were pro-iconography?

Hey, assuming that we didn't get into the term "in the likeness" or "in the form" of something is what the issue was about then the Ark of the Covenant was not a representation of anything but a symbolic presence of the LORD with Israelites. In fact, no mortal could withstand it's presence and survived. Therefore, the ark barely likens to anything we've venerated since the beginning of veneration. More so, the ark carried the tablets of the laws of Moses and Part of the LORD's Holy Tabernacle. IOW we can't liken it to anything considering it was SO POWERFUL that the Priest had to cleansed of sins before entering the Holy of Holies. Saying that it was an Icon that's what the Neighboring countries thought but what they never knew was that it was actually, "carrying the LORD's THRONE" wherever you went.

Just to show you the Joshua 7 story wasn't really about kneeling and tearing yourself apart in front of the Ark, the reason why the LORD allowed the Defeat by the men of Ai was because one of the Israelites had stolen sacred objects from the Philistines instead of burning it up.

Anyway, FFWD, we became the arks of the Covenant based on the Promises Jeremiah 31 where the LORD established his New Covenant with Saints by writing his Laws in their Hearts and therefore, ever since, as long as a Saint is 100% tuned to the Spirit is sensitive to the "unclean" or rather as a Saint you will pick a certain repulsion. In fact, the inscriptions of the Word are inside every believer and the closer they are to God the higher levels of "sniffing out" and the further they are from the Spirit of Truth the harder it becomes to tell what's of the LORD and what isn't. In fact, I take it that the reason why we celebrate the "Eucharist" is to remind our hearts of the Covenant between the Son and the Father and the Spirit meaning, we are the temples and our hearts of hearts are what the LORD wants to Possess so that His Spirit is LIVE! Saints have the Holy Tabernacle and the Tablets of Law that's why the LORD destroyed his Temple in 1st Century AD!

 

[Linet Kihonge]

Therefore, since the Church is the definer of the Scriptures, the Church is of a high enough authority to be the final grounds to which we look for the meaning thereof.

True, but so is the case of everyone of us. The Church should be the bearer of Scripture not the imposer of what's of scripture and what isn't. You should be everything like the Jews but with the Gospel of Christ! You understood, Talmudic texts, Forbidden elements of teachings in light of the New Covenant as per the very first Apostolic teachings. In other words, succession is the semblance of similar words and teachings of one generation to the other, nothing new and nothing peculiar so, just as Peter said, so does the Orthodox Believe, as Jesus taught so does the Orthodox teach, as the Prophets do, so did the Orthodox. By now, we would be having a difficult time picking discrepancies between the Scripture and the ways of the Early Churches. Sadly, we still can't tell how much of the teachings are of the First Apostles or of the Early Fathers because you keep insisting it wasn't forbidden and there's nothing wrong with this or that. So we keep going back to the Bible picking every verse and line just to make sure we are not being irrational or unreasonable but here we are!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, the parable of the sower talks about how the seed of the Word fell by the wayside and is snatched up by birds. This is a parallel of the unbeliever who rejects God's Word when they hear it. The wicked one snatches the Word that they hear from out of their heart before it has a chance to be sown.

He who has an ear to hear, let him hear.

...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

So my question is, Because tradition makes it right does it mean it's right with God?

What did Jesus say? Did Yhwh EVER say , (no, never), that "tradition" made ANYTHING right ? Rather the opposite - the source of the traditions NOT being from Yhwh, but the traditions being INSTEAD of Yhwh and contrary to His Plan and Purpose in Christ. And the traditions being a part of the system that has the form of religion , and DENYING Christ's Power. ( If not denying Christ, then GO STRAIGHT TO CHRIST and to the FATHER by CHRIST AS WRITTEN, not by carnal traditions)

 

[civilwarbuff]

The highest authority in your life is in the mirror. It isn't Scripture, because you choose what you take from it and how you choose to use it.

Could not be more wrong. God is my highest authority and He speaks to me through his word and the Holy Spirit. Is your church your highest authority or is God? Does God speak to you through his word and the Holy Spirit or does your church speak to you for Him instead?

 

[civilwarbuff]

Claiming the Holy Spirit is your authority in your arguments is posing as a prophet,

Prophets are anointed by God and so far that has not happened to me (I thank Him for that) and neither am I a self anointed (false) prophet.

you have to show how God is your authority and why your opinion is supported by him.

Joh 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper, to be with you forever,
Joh 14:17 even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.
Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Do you Scripture is a comprehensive record of every single thing Christ taught in his years of ministry.

I think you are asking if I believe scripture contains everything Messiah said; and of course the answer is no. We are even told so:
Joh 21:25 Now there are also many other things that Jesus did. Were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books that would be written.
But would you agree that everything necessary for our salvation is in scripture?

 

[civilwarbuff]

I follow the Pillar and Ground of the Truth.

I thought that was the Orthodox position, just was not sure. Me, I will follow Messiah...the Way.....the Truth....and the Life. None come to the Father except by Him. You go ahead and follow the Orthodox Church if you feel that is the Way......

 

[civilwarbuff]

A certain style. Is it not possible that, when leading them, Christ used and taught in the style which the Jews used at the time? Is it really guessing to think that Christ taught to worship liturgically since the Old Testament Scriptures taught to worship liturgically? The Scriptures taught it.

Since they were all Jews it would make sense they continue to worship as Jews; synagogue, Temple, offerings, etc. But once they were no longer under the Law but under Grace why would they continue to worship in the same manner? The Law no longer holds them, synagogue should mean nothing. Why continue a Jewish style worship when freed from that bond? Acts gives a glimpse of how they worshiped, maybe it would have been best to stick with.....Act 5:42 And every day, in the temple and from house to house, they did not cease teaching and preaching that the Christ is Jesus. Seems more Christ-like than most worship services today.

 

[civilwarbuff]

How much of Christ's teaching can you take away before it ceases to be adequate?

How much needs to be added before it becomes adequate?

 

[civilwarbuff]

What is written there isn't even adequate enough to tell us what should be there...

You don't believe scripture is adequate for our salvation?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

 

[civilwarbuff]

Because you take away any of what He taught that isn't in Scripture.

Why is this not in scripture? Why is it not considered scripture if it is indeed from Messiah? Why are these teachings not part of canon?

 

[Colter]

your missing word that defines it is 'authority'. as God's written revelation of himself, its authority is founded on God himself.

and let me say in advance, it is NOT against tradition, nor church system, nor does it NOT recognize the authority of such entities.

however in matters of conscience and moral authority, scripture alone vindicates ALL other relative authority.​

That so called authority is the product of church government which is no different than any other government.

 

[sculleywr]

It looks like there's nothing more being offered against Scripture, so I'll call it quits, at least for the night.

There is nothing being offered against Scripture because it isn't Scripture we are going against. It is the manmade tradition of Sola Scriptura we are going against. Orthodoxy has Scripture as PART of Tradition, not separate from it. Removing Scripture from Tradition is akin to removing the heart from the body. Neither can function properly without the other. In fact, both die when they are separated from the other. Truly, if Scripture were as clear, as self-interpreting, as comprehensive as you claim it to be, we would NEVER need to look elsewhere for understanding. We wouldn't need the traditions of canons, of translations, of systematic theologies or interpretations or catechisms or creeds or confessions or theses.

But the fact is that without these traditions, no church could ever function. The tradition of a translation makes it possible for you to read the scripture, and can even determine which doctrines get emphasized in the translation process, for example. But could any church in any country today function without it?

 

[sculleywr]

Why is this not in scripture? Why is it not considered scripture if it is indeed from Messiah? Why are these teachings not part of canon?

Perhaps because carrying a library larger than all of the books in the world would be impractical? Remember John said that is what would be needed to record all that Christ did in writing. But really, they were necessary before the New Testament was penned, right? In point of fact, the New Testament makes reference to things which weren't written down or aren't in Scripture that should be followed all the time. There are two missing letters to Corinth that we know exist because Paul told the Corinthians to obey what was written in them, for example.

 

[Albion]

There is nothing being offered against Scripture because it isn't Scripture we are going against.

Sure it is. While the claim is often made that this is not the case, every last one of these disputes on this particular subject sooner or later features the admission that the Catholic/Orthodox posters do not trust Scripture. It's inadequate for its purpose they say. It's deficient, they say. Just look at the posts on this thread; it's more than apparent.

 

[sculleywr]

You can't even keep history or the posts in english order -
Christ opposed traditions of the religious leaders.
Traditions of religious leaders (source and implementation and practice) oppose Scripture.
Christ opposes all traditions that oppose Scripture.

See? Christ never approved of traditions that oppose Scripture.

Nobody contests that Christ didn't approve of traditions that oppose the message of Scripture, but there is no such thing as a portion of Apostolic Tradition that opposes Scripture. Just because it opposes the personal interpretations of Protestant churches does not mean it opposes Scripture. Scripture and personal interpretation of Scripture are not one and the same.

 

[sculleywr]

Sure it is. While the claim is often made that this is not the case, every last one of these disputes on this particular subject sooner or later features the admission that the Catholic/Orthodox posters do not trust Scripture. It's inadequate for its purpose they say. It's deficient, they say. Just look at the posts on this thread; it's more than apparent.

No it isn't. End of discussion because you have built a strawman. Go back, take down your strawman and respond to what we ACTUALLY BELIEVE instead of your nonexistent strawman.

We do not distrust Scripture. Scripture is part of Tradition. It is not distrusted. You are either lying or gravely misinformed. I pray that it is the latter. The purpose of Scripture is not to be a comprehensive guide to worshiping God. Its purpose is to equip us for salvation. That is the purpose of Scripture. The Scripture never claims to hold everything we need to worship God, because it, quite frankly, doesn't. That wasn';t why Scripture was written.

 

[sculleywr]

Totally opposed to Scripture. Sorry - multitudes have been duped.

Not opposed to Scripture because Scripture doesn't say anything against it. However, I will leave that as the last of the response to this off topic line of argument. Find another thread.