Are there people who honestly believe they've accessed unmediated, completely objective reality?

[W2L]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well

Likewise... by the same measure, why would you trust religious claims?

What claims am I trusting? I follow no religious people other than scripture. It promises me eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things? I'm sure you would agree its not bad. Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad? I'm sure you agree that its not bad. I'm only saying that we risk turning science into a religion and it does happen.

 

[devolved]

What claims am I trusting? I follow no religious people other than scripture.

... written by people.

It promises me eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things?

Sure, no complains from me in terms of your personal preferences, but we are talking about it in context of reasonable beliefs. If someone promises a billion dollars in exchange for my belief, would it be reasonable to believe something based on desirability of such promise?

Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad?

Again no. If you find it useful tool, I have no problem with it personally. But why would you lead with all of the other stuff like humans are flawed and we don't know everything?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But why would you lead with all of the other stuff like humans are flawed and we don't know everything?

Don't you think humanity is flawed? Man is the only conscious organism that is unable to do what it seeks to do.

1st Man: "Let's go to the north pole".
2nd Man: "Which direction should we head?"
1st Man: "South".

 

[devolved]

Don't you think humanity is flawed? Man is the only conscious organism that is unable to do what it seeks to do.

1st Man: "Let's go to the north pole".
2nd Man: "Which direction should we head?"
1st Man: "South".

To paraphrase a guy named Stephen Hawking... one of the basic rules of the Universe is that perfection doesn't exist... and without imperfection you and I wouldn't exist either.

The paradox of perfection is that the concept of perfection itself is flawed.

http://abyssinia-iffat.com/DoesPerfectionExist.htm

 

[Ana the Ist]

I suppose so, but that doesn't have much to do with the analogy I was using.

No...it doesn't have anything to do with the analogy you're using. Its simply a point regarding the "objectivity" of your beliefs. If I can just make something up regarding reality....and it would logically be on equal footing with your beliefs...what does that say about your beliefs?

Can't you see the difference between that and science? Science doesn't make conclusions about what we don't know.

 

[W2L]

No...it doesn't have anything to do with the analogy you're using. Its simply a point regarding the "objectivity" of your beliefs. If I can just make something up regarding reality....and it would logically be on equal footing with your beliefs...what does that say about your beliefs?

Can't you see the difference between that and science? Science doesn't make conclusions about what we don't know.

I know nothing.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I know nothing.

Well, I'm not going to argue with that.

 

[W2L]

Well, I'm not going to argue with that.

Didn't think you would.

 

[One name]

Timothy 4New International Version (NIV)
4 The Spirit clearly says that in later timessome will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. 4 For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, 5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

6 If you point these things out to the brothers and sisters,[a] you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. 7 Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales;rather, train yourself to be godly. 8 For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. 9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance. 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

To paraphrase a guy named Stephen Hawking... one of the basic rules of the Universe is that perfection doesn't exist... and without imperfection you and I wouldn't exist either.

The paradox of perfection is that the concept of perfection itself is flawed.

http://abyssinia-iffat.com/DoesPerfectionExist.htm

?

 

[devolved]

?

Perfection is an imaginary ideal. It's not something found in reality. So, everything can be seen as flawed if we can imagine some "better state" as a concept.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Perfection is an imaginary ideal. It's not something found in reality. So, everything can be seen as flawed if we can imagine some "better state" as a concept.

Perfection is an imaginary ideal. It's not something found in reality. So, everything can be seen as flawed if we can imagine some "better state" as a concept.

My puzzlement was how this relates to my comment. I didn't allude to perfection in any way.

 

[devolved]

My puzzlement was how this relates to my comment. I didn't allude to perfection in any way.

Well, you implied that humanity is "flawed", hence you seem to have some standards relating to what an "unflawed" human would look like, right?

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

What claims am I trusting? I follow no religious people other than scripture. It promises me eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things? I'm sure you would agree its not bad. Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad? I'm sure you agree that its not bad. I'm only saying that we risk turning science into a religion and it does happen.

You've just described subjective beliefs based on personal feelings.

"I follow no religious people other than scripture. It promises [eventual] eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things? I'm sure you would agree its not bad. Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad? I'm sure you agree that its not bad." -- Said the devout Hindu.


What makes the Hindu's comment any more or less valid than yours?



If all it comes down to is subjective feelings, then that's fine, but that also implies that God is also just a subjective feeling as well.

 

[W2L]

You've just described subjective beliefs based on personal feelings.

"I follow no religious people other than scripture. It promises [eventual] eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things? I'm sure you would agree its not bad. Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad? I'm sure you agree that its not bad." -- Said the devout Hindu.


What makes the Hindu's comment any more or less valid than yours?



If all it comes down to is subjective feelings, then that's fine, but that also implies that God is also just a subjective feeling as well.

I would assert that even Science can use subjective reasoning at times. Science isn't always so holy that it is above mas faults.

However, I believe that Love is the greatest knowledge mankind can attain. We cannot know love unless we have empathy. Empathy is the fruit of suffering, in my opinion. WE may suffer but we can reap a harvest of empathy, compassion, love.

Why would I endure suffering though, unless I believed in God who teaches me to follow the way of the cross? Therefore the cross may seem subjective but its not, its rational and objective. It doesn't matter what I learn if I don't also learn love. Without love what use is any of my knowledge to mankind?

 

[Ana the Ist]

What claims am I trusting? I follow no religious people other than scripture. It promises me eternal life and hope. Is that bad to desire those things?

I think the answer to that depends on how important you think the truth is. If you think it's really important...then yes, desiring eternal life is bad...as your desire can lead you to believe that which isn't true.

I'm sure you would agree its not bad. Those scriptures teach me to be a better person as well. Is that bad? I'm sure you agree that its not bad. I'm only saying that we risk turning science into a religion and it does happen.

 

[W2L]

I think the answer to that depends on how important you think the truth is. If you think it's really important...then yes, desiring eternal life is bad...as your desire can lead you to believe that which isn't true.

Well, I have love and hope in my heart, and its a great source of strength. No pill could ever give me that. That is real.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, I have love and hope in my heart, and its a great source of strength. No pill could ever give me that. That is real.

And Jesus gives eternal life to those who seek Him and keep seeking Him, and He is the Truth.
The Truth sets people free, when they find it and believe Him.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well, I have love and hope in my heart, and its a great source of strength. No pill could ever give me that. That is real.

Is keeping your "love and hope" and the "strength" you think it gives you more important than truth?

 

[W2L]

Is keeping your "love and hope" and the "strength" you think it gives you more important than truth?

It is truth to me. What other truth is there? That we are nothing but cosmic accidents, and there ultimately is no purpose or meaning to our life? I don't see that when I look at things. I believe I have a purpose and a destiny, other than this world.