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What "Transitional" Means in Real Science

Loudmouth

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There seems to be a continual misunderstanding among different groups about what the term "transitional fossil" means and how they are used to test the theory of evolution.

One of the common misunderstandings is that a transitional fossil is assumed to be a direct ancestor or descendant of other fossils or living species. This simply isn't true. This isn't how transitional fossils are treated in "real" science (i.e. the actual practice of science by biologists). In fact, just the opposite. All fossils are assumed to be sister taxa to the direct lineage. For example, this is a cladogram for lobe finned fish and tetrapods with a diagram of their front fin/limb:

nature04637-f4.2-fore-limbs.jpg


The most recent transitional tetrapod found is Tiktaalik, and it is shown as a side branch to the direct lineage of Tulerpeton. This is true of all fossils.

So what are we really saying about transitional fossils? This is what Darwin had to say:

"In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition."--Charles Darwin, "Origin of Species"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter6.html

That is what Darwin did 150 years ago, and that is still what biologists do today. Scientists are looking at the features that have been preserved in the side branches of a lineage.

So if the fossils can't be proven to be direct ancestors of any living or extinct species, then how can they be considered evidence? The answer is simple. The nested hierarchy. This is the pattern of both similarities and differences that the theory of evolution predicts we should see in the fossil record. For example, it predicts that mammals evolved from reptiles. It also predicts that no mammal ancestor was a bird, nor were mammals the ancestors of any bird species. Therefore, there should have been species in the past who had a mixture of reptile and mammal features, but no species that have a mixture of bird and mammal features.

It is this prediction, and many more like it, that we are testing with fossils. When we find a fossil with a mixture of mammal and non-mammal features, it is a test of this prediction. We don't need a complete fossil record to test this prediction.

And this leads us to the next misunderstanding. Some people insist that we have to have a complete fossil record in order to test the theory of evolution. First of all, we don't need a single fossil to test the theory since we also have DNA:

"Arguments against macroevolution, based on so-called gaps in the fossil records, are also profoundly weakened by the much more detailed and digital information revealed from the study of genomes. Outside of a time machine, Darwin could hardly have imagined a more powerful data set than comparative genomics to confirm his theory."--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
https://tulsa.younglife.org/Documents/Francis Collins Article on Faith_Science.pdf

Beyond that, however, is the scientific method. With this method, we use the evidence we do have to test a theory, not the evidence we don't have. The fossils we do have match the predictions of the theory. That satisfies the requirements for the scientific method.

From a practical standpoint, there is no reason that we should expect to have a fossil specimen of every species that has ever existed in our museums. We have only looked at a tiny, tiny portion of geologic record, and we are still finding new species on a monthly basis. So why should we expect to have a complete fossil record if evolution is true? Well, we shouldn't.
 

SkyWriting

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There seems to be a continual misunderstanding among different groups about what the term "transitional fossil" means and how they are used to test the theory of evolution.

LOL...you sure fell into that one!

"Transitional"? Even using the term requires one
to accept the concept of immutable species as the
basis for examination!

Transition between what & what? rotfl

You just got sucked into talking like a Creationist.
Scientists don't use terms like transitional fossils.
 
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florida2

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LOL...you sure fell into that one!

"Transitional"? Even using the term requires one
to accept the concept of immutable species as the
basis for examination!

Transition between what & what? rotfl

You just got sucked into talking like a Creationist.
Scientists don't use terms like transitional fossils.

Did you actually read the whole post or decided to react to the first line?
 
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SkyWriting

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Did you actually read the whole post or decided to react to the first line?

You mean where the term never comes up?
Are you belaboring my point intentionally?
 
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Ophiolite

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Loudmouth

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LOL...you sure fell into that one!

"Transitional"? Even using the term requires one
to accept the concept of immutable species as the
basis for examination!

No, it doesn't. All you need is the physical features of the fossil itself.

Scientists
don't use terms like transitional fossils.

A search for "transitional fossil" at scholar.google.com turns up tons of scientific papers using that very term.
 
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florida2

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You mean where the term never comes up?
Are you belaboring my point intentionally?

As you only seemed to respond to the first line, it was a fair question whether you had read the whole thing or just having a knee jerk reaction
 
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SkyWriting

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As you only seemed to respond to the first line, it was a fair question whether you had read the whole thing or just having a knee jerk reaction

I try not to read anything that slips out of loudmouth. Occasionally I clean
my ignore file and most of them are gone. LM manages to remain civil enough
to avoid being banned. Most of his type are gone. Evo's always feel misunderstood
and sad that Creationist don't get them. I've not exactly understood their draw to the conflict. Moths and flame?
 
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florida2

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I try not to read anything that slips out of loudmouth. Occasionally I clean
my ignore file and most of them are gone. LM manages to remain civil enough
to avoid being banned. Most of his type are gone. Evo's always feel misunderstood
and sad that Creationist don't get them. I've not exactly understood their draw to the conflict. Moths and flame?

Could you write that in English?
 
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-57

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There seems to be a continual misunderstanding among different groups about what the term "transitional fossil" means and how they are used to test the theory of evolution.

One of the common misunderstandings is that a transitional fossil is assumed to be a direct ancestor or descendant of other fossils or living species. This simply isn't true. This isn't how transitional fossils are treated in "real" science (i.e. the actual practice of science by biologists). In fact, just the opposite. All fossils are assumed to be sister taxa to the direct lineage. For example, this is a cladogram for lobe finned fish and tetrapods with a diagram of their front fin/limb:

nature04637-f4.2-fore-limbs.jpg


The most recent transitional tetrapod found is Tiktaalik, and it is shown as a side branch to the direct lineage of Tulerpeton. This is true of all fossils.

So what are we really saying about transitional fossils? This is what Darwin had to say:

"In looking for the gradations by which an organ in any species has been perfected, we ought to look exclusively to its lineal ancestors; but this is scarcely ever possible, and we are forced in each case to look to species of the same group, that is to the collateral descendants from the same original parent-form, in order to see what gradations are possible, and for the chance of some gradations having been transmitted from the earlier stages of descent, in an unaltered or little altered condition."--Charles Darwin, "Origin of Species"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter6.html

That is what Darwin did 150 years ago, and that is still what biologists do today. Scientists are looking at the features that have been preserved in the side branches of a lineage.

So if the fossils can't be proven to be direct ancestors of any living or extinct species, then how can they be considered evidence? The answer is simple. The nested hierarchy. This is the pattern of both similarities and differences that the theory of evolution predicts we should see in the fossil record. For example, it predicts that mammals evolved from reptiles. It also predicts that no mammal ancestor was a bird, nor were mammals the ancestors of any bird species. Therefore, there should have been species in the past who had a mixture of reptile and mammal features, but no species that have a mixture of bird and mammal features.

It is this prediction, and many more like it, that we are testing with fossils. When we find a fossil with a mixture of mammal and non-mammal features, it is a test of this prediction. We don't need a complete fossil record to test this prediction.

And this leads us to the next misunderstanding. Some people insist that we have to have a complete fossil record in order to test the theory of evolution. First of all, we don't need a single fossil to test the theory since we also have DNA:

"Arguments against macroevolution, based on so-called gaps in the fossil records, are also profoundly weakened by the much more detailed and digital information revealed from the study of genomes. Outside of a time machine, Darwin could hardly have imagined a more powerful data set than comparative genomics to confirm his theory."--Dr. Francis Collins, "Faith and the Human Genome"
https://tulsa.younglife.org/Documents/Francis Collins Article on Faith_Science.pdf

Beyond that, however, is the scientific method. With this method, we use the evidence we do have to test a theory, not the evidence we don't have. The fossils we do have match the predictions of the theory. That satisfies the requirements for the scientific method.

From a practical standpoint, there is no reason that we should expect to have a fossil specimen of every species that has ever existed in our museums. We have only looked at a tiny, tiny portion of geologic record, and we are still finding new species on a monthly basis. So why should we expect to have a complete fossil record if evolution is true? Well, we shouldn't.

When God created the animal kingdom God made similar animals reusing similar parts (DNA).
A particula animal may need a hoof....So God reused the blueprint tweeking it to meet the animals specific needs.

The evolutionist tend to label one hoof as a lesser taxa..then label it as a transitional.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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When God created the animal kingdom God made similar animals reusing similar parts (DNA).
A particula animal may need a hoof....So God reused the blueprint tweeking it to meet the animals specific needs.

The evolutionist tend to label one hoof as a lesser taxa..then label it as a transitional.

So God made everything good (if we use the Genesis accounts use of the word), but he found that some animals didn't work, so he had to keep... tweaking his designs.

... are you being serious?
 
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-57

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So God made everything good (if we use the Genesis accounts use of the word), but he found that some animals didn't work, so he had to keep... tweaking his designs.

... are you being serious?

Of course I'm being serious...but I'm not presenting the strawman argument you're saying i'm saying. Did you expect God to put the exact hoof on all the hoofed animals? The tweaking (reuse of similar DNA) wasn't done to make the animals work, finally get it right....but rather to work better for the animal. Perhaps you thought God would use a horse hoof on all the hoofed animals.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Of course I'm being serious...but I'm not presenting the strawman argument you're saying i'm saying. Did you expect God to put the exact hoof on all the hoofed animals? The tweaking (reuse of similar DNA) wasn't done to make the animals work, finally get it right....but rather to work better for the animal. Perhaps you thought God would use a horse hoof on all the hoofed animals.

I think if you'll look at my reply, I never said that God reused the same DNA or the same hoof. You're the one who is creating and attacking your own strawman. I used the exact same wording as you did: God kept tweaking his creation, even though, in the beginning, according to the Bible, he was supposed to have made it perfect.
 
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Picky Picky

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Of course I'm being serious...but I'm not presenting the strawman argument you're saying i'm saying. Did you expect God to put the exact hoof on all the hoofed animals? The tweaking (reuse of similar DNA) wasn't done to make the animals work, finally get it right....but rather to work better for the animal. Perhaps you thought God would use a horse hoof on all the hoofed animals.
This is nice because it pictures God not as an all-powerful being who just spoke his creation into existence, but as a sort of honest craftsman working at his bench. "Mmm, a hoof on this one I think. Now I'm sure I had a hoof somewhere, where is it? No, that's just a claw ... Ah, here we are. Not quite right for this animal, though. I'd better take a bit off here ..."

I rather like it. You can imagine Disney doing Creation this way.
 
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Jimmy D

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When God created the animal kingdom God made similar animals reusing similar parts (DNA).
A particula animal may need a hoof....So God reused the blueprint tweeking it to meet the animals specific needs.

The evolutionist tend to label one hoof as a lesser taxa..then label it as a transitional.

LOL
 
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Loudmouth

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When God created the animal kingdom God made similar animals reusing similar parts (DNA).

That doesn't explain the nested hierarchy. Reusing parts could produce a species with a mixture of bird and mammal features which would violate a nested hierarchy.

The evolutionist tend to label one hoof as a lesser taxa..then label it as a transitional.

The whole point is that transitional fossils in combination with living species form a nested hierarchy. As your own posts show, "reusing parts" would not produce that pattern.
 
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