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Personal relationship with God

Resha Caner

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It's been shown that people's ideas of the moral stance of their God concept correlate closely with their own moral stance and will vary with it.

I assume this is a statistical result. So, this is how the average person behaves, but not all people. I'm not surprised, but I'm not sure what that proves in the context of this discussion.

I'm not comfortable with some things in the Bible, so I would be an example of someone who doesn't behave like the average person in the study. But ... if I claim the Bible is my guide and yet over time my behavior remains unchanged, and doesn't draw closer to the Bible, is it really my guide? Further, maybe you (Frumious) don't say this, but many will say that Christians are wrong to put their trust in some form of external authority, and that morality should come from within. I would see blaming someone for differing from the Bible as contradictory with saying morality should come from within.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I assume this is a statistical result. So, this is how the average person behaves, but not all people. I'm not surprised, but I'm not sure what that proves in the context of this discussion.
Here's an example of research based on five separate studies using survey questionnaires, so yes, statistical like all such studies - it's not possible to ask everyone. See 'Believers' estimates of God's beliefs are more egocentric than estimates of other people's beliefs'.
I'm not comfortable with some things in the Bible, so I would be an example of someone who doesn't behave like the average person in the study.
That wasn't what the study was looking at; it was comparing believer's estimates of God's beliefs.
I would see blaming someone for differing from the Bible as contradictory with saying morality should come from within.
I, for one, wouldn't blame anyone for differing from the Bible.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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If we merely assume that the evidence of God in people is certain behavioral patterns, and that if they don't behave that way it means that God isn't in them... and then we use that as evidence for God to begin with. Most don't understand why it's a problem.
Reminds me of the argument that says the Bible is God's word so when it tells us it's the word of God it must be true... and God's word is evidence for God ;)
 
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devolved

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Evidence of God in someone else is not the same as evidence of God within yourself. I'm sure you can understand why there'd be a big difference.

You understand that you are a "someone else" to me, right?

None the less, continue thinking you've got it all figured out and that we 'believers' just don't get it. ;)

Quite the opposite. You claim to know. I claim that I don't know and the only thing I can examine is the consistency of one's arguments and the methodology by which they claim to know.

If methodology and arguments don't seem reliable... then what they "know" would likekely be something else entirely.
 
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Resha Caner

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That wasn't what the study was looking at; it was comparing believer's estimates of God's beliefs.

Maybe I didn't say it well, but I was indicating that I don't think I act in the way indicated in the studies, so I don't think I'm average in that sense.

I, for one, wouldn't blame anyone for differing from the Bible.

That isn't really what I meant. I was more referring to criticisms regarding people's inconsistent adherence to the Bible. Inconsistency is to be expected, as adhering to a guideline takes time. Though maybe you don't criticize Christians for that either.
 
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devolved

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It is about one's unique personal spiritual growth and development. It is about one's personal spiritual well-being.

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by spiritual well-being?

Do you mean that one feels satisfied and happy having a purpose and lack of internal dissonance type of well-being, or do you mean something else.

It just whenever these terms come up, it's not entirely clear what exactly we are talking about.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Maybe I didn't say it well, but I was indicating that I don't think I act in the way indicated in the studies, so I don't think I'm average in that sense.
Yes, you'd probably find that the people involved in the studies would have said the same thing; when it's something you're not consciously aware of, it can come as quite a surprise. It's just one example of the subconscious biases we all have; being aware of them can help reduce their effect, but by their nature they're difficult to detect in oneself.

That isn't really what I meant. I was more referring to criticisms regarding people's inconsistent adherence to the Bible. Inconsistency is to be expected, as adhering to a guideline takes time. Though maybe you don't criticize Christians for that either.
To me, that would be like criticizing Trekkies for disagreeing on the meaning of the episodes, or Potterheads for arguing about what J. K. Rowling meant - although it doesn't mean one can't question a particular interpretation ;)
 
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Resha Caner

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Yes, you'd probably find that the people involved in the studies would have said the same thing; when it's something you're not consciously aware of, it can come as quite a surprise. It's just one example of the subconscious biases we all have; being aware of them can help reduce their effect, but by their nature they're difficult to detect in oneself.

Sure. And I would expect your starting assumption to be that I'm average per the study. My only point is that it would be a mistake to assume all people behave per the average statistic of the study. If some aren't average, why not me?

I'd not be surprised to find I'm average in other ways. I'm average per many characteristics of a Midwestern conservative. I'm below average in some things: I'm a terrible golfer, I can't swim very well, and honestly I'm not that good in "emotional intelligence". I would also expect to be above average in some things. I've always tested high in academic subjects like math and science, and people tell me I have a good singing voice. So, whether you trust my self-assessment or not, I don't think I behave in the manner indicated in the study.

I added the underlining, as I'm glad to here you say it. It would have been my next question. I've had the experience where a bias of mine is revealed. I enjoy such discoveries so I can directly address them.

But what is the point of the study? That's what I'm suspicious of. Is it to tell Christians they're like other people? That they're not above other people? If that's the result ... OK. I already knew that. But I'm suspicious they're poking at something else. Some, "This god of yours is just in your head," message.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Sure. And I would expect your starting assumption to be that I'm average per the study. My only point is that it would be a mistake to assume all people behave per the average statistic of the study. If some aren't average, why not me?
The study doesn't tell you the average; it uses random sample of a population (e.g. believer, non-believer) in the given context, and tests the samples, which gives an indication of the population behaviour and the differences between populations in that respect. So for an individual in either population, it gives an indication of how likely they are to have the measured trait, and - if it has a distribution of values - by how much. Even where there is a distribution of values, the average only indicates the mean value of the trait strength, some may be above that value, some below.
So, whether you trust my self-assessment or not, I don't think I behave in the manner indicated in the study.
I think you're mistaken in your interpretation of what the study says (see above), and I'm sceptical of your self-assessment because these are subconscious effects - the only way you'd be aware of them would be if you had been a participant or you knew about the effect and tested yourself - but this is fraught with error, as even if you recognised that your moral stance hardened or softened according to your recent experiences, you would still not expect that to affect your beliefs about God's stance on it, so you'd be likely to have a natural bias against that result. That's why the scientific method has been developed, to minimize the effect of such biases; as Richard Feynman said (about the search for knowledge), "The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool."
But what is the point of the study?
Did you not even read the abstract? It is known that people often use their own beliefs as a guide to reason about what others may believe; the results tend to be biased towards their own beliefs (i.e. as if the other person had similar beliefs to their own and reasoned about them similarly).

The study wanted to discover whether this applied to believer's reasoning about their God's beliefs; so they tested for the correlation between the subject's own beliefs, and their beliefs about their God's beliefs, and between their own beliefs and their beliefs about other people's beliefs. They also did the comparison when the subject's moral stance had been modified by recent experience.

They found that people's own beliefs are more closely correlated with their beliefs about their God's beliefs than their beliefs about other people's beliefs. They found that this was also true when they modified the subject's moral stance.

Tellingly, they also found that when brain activity was measured, reasoning about God's beliefs activated areas associated with self-referential thinking more so than did reasoning about another person's beliefs.

The conclusion, based on surveys and neurological observations: "Believers commonly use inferences about God's beliefs as a moral compass, but that compass appears especially dependent on one's own existing beliefs."

But I'm suspicious they're poking at something else. Some, "This god of yours is just in your head," message.
The evidence only refers to what believers think their God believes: believers tend to refer to their own beliefs when assessing what their God's beliefs are or would be. They don't do this to the same extent when assessing what other people's beliefs are or would be.

In other words, whether God is in their heads or not, what they think about God's beliefs tends to be based on their own beliefs rather than vice-versa, and more so than what they think about other's beliefs.

A fairly simple concept, but not easy to describe clearly ;)
 
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Resha Caner

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... I'm sceptical of your self-assessment because these are subconscious effects ...

I realize you're skeptical of me. I'm simply saying that I am skeptical of studies that purport to know the source of my beliefs better than I know them myself because of "subconscious" effects. The fallacy list should be expanded to include some kind of "subconscious appeal" fallacy.

John: I have a relationship with God.
Jim: No you don't. You just don't realize it because of subconscious effects.

Did you not even read the abstract?

I read it. I love the understatement in academic work. I'm guilty of it myself. So, here is their final sentence, "Believers commonly use inferences about God's beliefs as a moral compass, but that compass appears especially dependent on one's own existing beliefs."

My translation: People claim God holds position x, but it is really the individual making the claim who holds position x.

You won't find the answer to my question in the study itself, so it is somewhat rhetorical. 1) People project their beliefs. OK. 2) The effect appears to be stronger when projecting about God. Not sure about that one, but so what? Why did they do this study, and why focus on religious belief? What are they looking for? So now a study confirms what I think we've known all along. Where do we go from here?

- - -

With respect to my skeptical reaction to #2, I didn't see anything in the abstract that indicated how they separated projection of religious beliefs from projection of other beliefs. My bet is that it's a matter of distance. IOW, I would bet people do as much projecting about what Caesar believed as they do what Mohamed believed. They project less about what their spouse believes because their spouse readily corrects their mistakes.
 
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Sam91

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I have a two way relationship with God. I class it as a personal relationship. I pray and he answers my prayers through the bible. His spirit leads and guides me.

Just last night I was praying aloud before reading my bible as I want my teenage son to follow my example. It was a long prayer. Well I opened my bible on Isiah and the topic caught my eye as it was on a subject I had prayed about. I decided to read aloud and my son was astounded to hear most of the things I had prayed and I asked for were confirmed in that long passage I read out. I said to him that the Lord does answer your prayers.

I class that as a personal relationship with the Lord. The Holy Spirit does guide you if you listen and when you don't you feel His absence. What a marvellous, precious gift we have received
 
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LOVEthroughINTELLECT

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Do you mean that one feels satisfied...




Should we ever feel completely satisfied?




and happy...




It seems like a lot of people who report being happy are extremely ignorant.

It is better to be a fool satisfied than Socrates dissatisfied?




having a purpose...




Assuming that one has a purpose, is that enough? Don't you need to know and understand what that purpose is? Don't you need to be able to accept and be at peace with it?




and lack of internal dissonance type of well-being...




Do you mean like when people meditate?




or do you mean something else.

It just whenever these terms come up, it's not entirely clear what exactly we are talking about.

Perhaps you can clarify what you mean by spiritual well-being?...




It is probably marching down the road that is right for you to the beat of the drum that is right for you at the pace that is right for you.

Growing as you march.

Not a station/state to settle on/into.

It is probably going to be a struggle no matter who you are. I am not a theologian, but I think the fact that Jesus struggled is not an uncommon view.
 
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brinny

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That subject tends to come up a lot when it comes to differentiating between "true belief" vs "mere religion" concepts. But, whenever this subject comes up there seems to be misunderstanding what we generally mean by word personal vs impersonal, and what religion is and how it is defined.

For example, if I say that I have a personal relationship with Michael Jordan, there are a few things are assumed.

It's assumed that I've actually met Michael Jordan in person. Not in spirit. Not by hearing or watching about MJ on TV. Not by pretending that MJ is really there in the room while I'm talking to him, and then reading MJ biography and gleaning some perceived answers and conversation from it.

It also is assumed that MJ is responding in some personal way. Not through a generic "Just do it" Nike ad. Not through his autobiography, again. Not through his publicist or PR person, etc.

We generally mean none of the above by concept of personal relationship.

So the obvious question would be, what exactly do you mean by the "personal relationship with God", if by that it's not implied that God is sitting across from you from a coffee table and having a friendly discussion?

What is personal about it?

Have you read the Bible?

Thank you kindly.
 
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quatona

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That subject tends to come up a lot when it comes to differentiating between "true belief" vs "mere religion" concepts. But, whenever this subject comes up there seems to be misunderstanding what we generally mean by word personal vs impersonal, and what religion is and how it is defined.

For example, if I say that I have a personal relationship with Michael Jordan, there are a few things are assumed.

It's assumed that I've actually met Michael Jordan in person. Not in spirit. Not by hearing or watching about MJ on TV. Not by pretending that MJ is really there in the room while I'm talking to him, and then reading MJ biography and gleaning some perceived answers and conversation from it.

It also is assumed that MJ is responding in some personal way. Not through a generic "Just do it" Nike ad. Not through his autobiography, again. Not through his publicist or PR person, etc.

We generally mean none of the above by concept of personal relationship.

So the obvious question would be, what exactly do you mean by the "personal relationship with God", if by that it's not implied that God is sitting across from you from a coffee table and having a friendly discussion?

What is personal about it?
Maybe "personal" as in "subjectively perceived"...as in "not intersubjectively demonstrable"?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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I realize you're skeptical of me.
I'm sceptical of your self-assessment.
I'm simply saying that I am skeptical of studies that purport to know the source of my beliefs better than I know them myself because of "subconscious" effects.
That's not what the study purports to know. It says that the evidence suggests that believers thoughts about the beliefs of their God are measurably self-referential, and more dependent on their own beliefs than are their thoughts about other people's beliefs. You're welcome to draw your own conclusions, but it's better to base them on what was actually said.
The fallacy list should be expanded to include some kind of "subconscious appeal" fallacy.
Possibly, if your argument hadn't been a 'straw man' fallacy.
John: I have a relationship with God.
Jim: No you don't. You just don't realize it because of subconscious effects.
Nobody said anything of the sort, you just made it up. Another straw man.
My translation: People claim God holds position x, but it is really the individual making the claim who holds position x.
That's the general idea, although it's not quite so absolute.
Why did they do this study, and why focus on religious belief? What are they looking for?
Curiosity I'd think. They were curious to know whether people's beliefs about their God's beliefs were similar to their beliefs about other people's beliefs. So they did some studies to find out.
So now a study confirms what I think we've known all along.
Really? you already thought that your beliefs about God's beliefs were more likely to be based on your own beliefs rather than some external reference (e.g. the Bible, or God)? Makes me wonder why you you said were so sceptical of the study, when it was telling you what you already knew...

It was a result that surprised me - I'd have expected people's beliefs about their God's beliefs to be more like their beliefs about other people's beliefs, i.e. not so self-referential.
Where do we go from here?
This kind of research gives us an insight into what people think about their God, which may be useful. I don't know what the researchers will do next; you'll have to ask them.

With respect to my skeptical reaction to #2, I didn't see anything in the abstract that indicated how they separated projection of religious beliefs from projection of other beliefs.
They compared people's own beliefs with what they thought about their God's beliefs, and what they thought about other people's beliefs - other people they might encounter whose beliefs & reasoning they're not familiar with, the people whose beliefs & reasoning they'd be likely to be guessing at.
My bet is that it's a matter of distance. IOW, I would bet people do as much projecting about what Caesar believed as they do what Mohamed believed.
I don't see the relevance of that.
They project less about what their spouse believes because their spouse readily corrects their mistakes.
The point I take from the results is that, as believers often say that God is the source of their moral beliefs and is a very personal presence to them, I'd expect their thoughts about God's beliefs to be more like their thoughts about their spouse's beliefs in terms of how they related to their own beliefs, i.e. fairly consistent and independent. But their thoughts about God's beliefs appear to be dependent or derived from their own beliefs; somewhat of a surprise, but consistent with the idea that their God concept mirrors their own belief structure rather than the other way around, as many seem to believe.
 
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Resha Caner

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That's not what the study purports to know.

No? What does it say about the source of someone's beliefs about others that they are "measurably self-referential"? You seem to draw a lot from this study about people's beliefs, and I don't see the difference between what I've said and what you said. What do you think is the difference?

Curiosity I'd think.

Snort. So now we're handing out research money just to satisfy people's curiosity? Where does the line form for that?

I don't see the relevance of that.

They are claiming religion is the unique factor here, yes? It supposedly differentiates a person's perception of what God believes vs. their perception of what their spouse believes, yes?
 
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Shempster

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We all have a relationship with Yeshua but like our own children, there are varying degrees.
He loves us all but many of us just keep on listening to demons and following the lusts of our flesh. That the reason we have strife and illness in our lives.
This world is run by Satan. That includes the governments and the media. We see that. We can have as much of Satan's way of life as we want. We can even believe in Christ, go to church, pray, study and yet still walk in the flesh. We beg for healing and better circumstances but like sheep we are too dense to realize that the problems we face are caused by Satan...when we give him access by sinning! Secret...we don't have to let him.
Once we see the true nature of the Father we should gravitate towards that nature and slowly merge within. That way the Holy Spirit teaches us everything and we don't need to seek the advice of man.
He imparts to us His true inner peace. We see that this human life is but a short test and gaining fame & money in this life is a waste of time.
The father owns everything and freely gives to those who earnestly seek Him.

Its true.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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What does it say about the source of someone's beliefs about others that they are "measurably self-referential"?
That would imply that someone's beliefs about others were based on their own beliefs to a significant degree (although the report was studying beliefs about other's beliefs).

You seem to draw a lot from this study about people's beliefs...
It's one interesting finding about what believers think God thinks.

... I don't see the difference between what I've said and what you said. What do you think is the difference?
We've both said a number of things; what, specifically, are you referring to?

Snort. So now we're handing out research money just to satisfy people's curiosity? Where does the line form for that?
Yup; curiosity is the motivation underlying a good deal of scientific research. Of course, it's often curiosity with an agenda. Unless you're independently wealthy, the line forms where you can find a funding organisation that funds the kind of research you have in mind, and then you submit a research proposal in the hope of a grant award. You don't get funding just for being curious! Generally, available funds are limited, the competition is fierce, and the process is prolonged and difficult. For more details, see Funding of Science.

They are claiming religion is the unique factor here, yes?
They're investigating the basis of people's thoughts or beliefs about what Gods or supernatural agents think or believe. As they say, "... our theoretical predictions apply to any religious or supernatural agent presumed to have beliefs", but, "our experimental participants are drawn primarily from the United States and therefore cannot represent the entire corpus of world religions.". So they only tested the predictions of their hypothesis for the USA, where the vast majority of study participants were religious and believed in God.

It supposedly differentiates a person's perception of what God believes vs. their perception of what their spouse believes, yes?
Not their spouse; the 'targets' they were asked to think about were, self, God, and their image of an individual representing their idea of the average American. This, and more, information is available via the study link.
 
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Resha Caner

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Of course, it's often curiosity with an agenda.

I'm glad to hear you recognize that. Guessing the agenda for this study would be just that - guessing, but let's have a little fun. Might there be a link between this study and questions about the existence of the gods these people were asked about?

Not their spouse; the 'targets' they were asked to think about were, self, God, and their image of an individual representing their idea of the average American.

Just a little bit of shorthand on my part. When I say, "spouse", you can think "average American".

They're investigating the basis of people's thoughts or beliefs about what Gods or supernatural agents think or believe.

I'll take that as an affirmative answer to my question. I am saying this is likely a false dichotomy. I would have asked to include historical figures from the distant past as well: What did Caesar believe? Isaac Newton? Martin Luther? Karl Marx? My hypothesis is they would find a similar result for projections about their favorite historical figure as they do for their god.
 
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