Fine tuning, a new approach

[Oncedeceived]

You really think the average Christmas-and-Easter Protestant or Third World Catholic knows anything about existential necessity in the nature of God? Because most of them can't even list the Ten Commandments or find 2 Corinthians in a Bible.

How do you know that?

 

[AdamSK]

How do you know that?

Surveys of religious knowledge. You've not seen them?

 

[DogmaHunter]

Vilenkin says it did.
http://now.tufts.edu/articles/beginning-was-beginning

Good job focussing on the pixel (with an argument from authority, of all things) and ignoring the big picture.

It isn't a fall back, it is relevant to your point of view.

No, it's a blatant shift of the burden of proof and a ridiculous way to argue your claims of gods as being a legit possibility because "it can't be shown to be wrong".

Any unfalsifiable model can't be shown to be wrong.

Look here, how easy it is: the undetectable 7-headed dragon did it. I know because he just told me in a personal revelation.

You categorize God with a unicorn which shows that you are not willing to even consider such a possibility.

I categorize your god idea with an idea in the exact same category. Being the unfalsifiable category. Being the category in which one cannot differentiate between imagination and reality.

If you want, I can give you another example... I have lots (as many as my imagination can produce):
- the FSM
- pixies
- other gods that are mutually exclusive to the one you happen to believe in
- extra dimensional higher aliens
- ...

Take your pick.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Surveys of religious knowledge. You've not seen them?

I saw a few once.

It was rather interesting to note that atheists in general were much better informed about the stories in the bible, then the christians that participated in it.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

I've supported my claims.
Claims:
1. The universe is fine tuned to exist and for life to exist as we know it.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.4647.pdf
I gave a list of scientists that agree that the universe if fine tuned: There are a great many scientists, of varying religious persuasions, who accept that the universe is fine-tuned for life, e.g. Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Dawkins, Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison, Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose, Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin, Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin, Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek. They differ, of course, on what conclusion we should draw from this fact.

Most of these Scientists Don't accept fine tuning.

2. Scientists claim that the universe is unlikely to have the parameters that are set precisely as they are to allow a life permitting universe to exist.
I gave a half a dozen or so quotes from prominent scientists that make this claim.

Some of these Quotes you gave quoted Scientists talking about the "Appearnace of" or "Apparent" fine tuning, not Actual fine tuning.

 

[AdamSK]

I saw a few once.

It was rather interesting to note that atheists in general were much better informed about the stories in the bible, then the christians that participated in it.

I don't remember that result. If I recall, atheists tended to be better versed in history and in a broader spread of religions; they didn't do any better than Christians on Bible stories or Christian doctrine.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Surveys of religious knowledge. You've not seen them?

citation?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Most of these Scientists Don't accept fine tuning.

Yes, they all do. Show any paper or article that shows that any of them don't.

Some of these Quotes you gave quoted Scientists talking about the "Appearnace of" or "Apparent" fine tuning, not Actual fine tuning.

False. Provide documentation of that claim please.

 

[AdamSK]

citation?

You haven't seen any of these studies before, then? If not I am happy to link you to one or two.

 

[AdamSK]

Yes, they all do. Show any paper or article that shows that any of them don't.

From Richard Dawkins Foundation: "Why Does the Universe Appear Fined Tuned for Life?"

Please note the word "Appear" in the title.

 

[AdamSK]

Dawkins himself:

At 3:00 in, "How do we explain the appearance..."

 

[Oncedeceived]

Good job focussing on the pixel (with an argument from authority, of all things) and ignoring the big picture.

I was supporting the claim DH. That is the point. There was a claim: The universe had a beginning. Support: The link provided supported that claim.

No, it's a blatant shift of the burden of proof and a ridiculous way to argue your claims of gods as being a legit possibility because "it can't be shown to be wrong".

I didn't ask you to prove anything. I said, if you don't know then you can't possibly know that God is not the answer. Your a priori worldview is the only reason you would not consider God.

Any unfalsifiable model can't be shown to be wrong.

Look here, how easy it is: the undetectable 7-headed dragon did it. I know because he just told me in a personal revelation.

A supreme Being is a very rational explanation for the fine tuning of the universe a undetectable 7-headed dragon is not. You make your own argument nonsensical and unconvincing by ignoring real evidence and by considering something that billions of people see as true and making up something as an analogy that no one even claims exists.

I categorize your god idea with an idea in the exact same category. Being the unfalsifiable category. Being the category in which one cannot differentiate between imagination and reality.

But you see that is the problem you just have the opinion that it is imagination and isn't reality but that is not true. You believe it to be true but you don't know that it is true.

If you want, I can give you another example... I have lots (as many as my imagination can produce):
- the FSM
- pixies
- other gods that are mutually exclusive to the one you happen to believe in
- extra dimensional higher aliens
- ...

Take your pick.

Yes, and FSM can be proven to be just a made up character. There are few people of the world that would claim pixies exist. All other gods are mutually exclusive to the Biblical God and just because there are other religions and other gods does not make the Biblical God non-existent. Extra dimensional higher aliens might possibly exist, I don't know. But because I don't know, I would not say they simply don't exist or are imaginary when I don't have any experience with anything that might be considered extra dimensional higher aliens.

 

[Oncedeceived]

From Richard Dawkins Foundation: "Why Does the Universe Appear Fined Tuned for Life?"

Please note the word "Appear" in the title.

I do. Dawkins was not a quote I used.

 

[Oncedeceived]

You haven't seen any of these studies before, then? If not I am happy to link you to one or two.

That is why I asked for the citation?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Dawkins himself:

At 3:00 in, "How do we explain the appearance..."

Again, I didn't use a quote for Dawkins. But you are correct, Dawkins is one who believes that all the apparent design in the universe and in biological life is an illusion. Interestingly enough, he really never provides evidence that all that apparent design is an illusion.

 

[tallbouy]

Yes, if people don't go to church it closes...pretty unremarkable. Churches are not about fellowship and community, although they give fellowship and a sense of community. They are about the gospel and sharing of that message in the church and through the church.

The message which apparently is not getting through as well as it should, I hate to say it but the message was not be very important because of how it was sent, in a language that was dying out to a group of people who could not read or write at a time when people believed in magic, had it not been for the Catholic church wanting power and money Christianity would have died out long long ago.

 

[Bugeyedcreepy]

Yes, they all do. Show any paper or article that shows that any of them don't.

Brian Greene | Why is our Universe fine tuned for life? - Make sure you read all of it now, not just the title...

False. Provide documentation of that claim please.

and when @AdamSK pointed out your use of Dawkins...

Again, I didn't use a quote for Dawkins. But you are correct, Dawkins is one who believes that all the apparent design in the universe and in biological life is an illusion. Interestingly enough, he really never provides evidence that all that apparent design is an illusion.

Bold and underlined as per below...

I've supported my claims.
Claims:
1. The universe is fine tuned to exist and for life to exist as we know it.
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1112.4647.pdf
I gave a list of scientists that agree that the universe if fine tuned: There are a great many scientists, of varying religious persuasions, who accept that the universe is fine-tuned for life, e.g. Barrow, Carr, Carter, Davies, Dawkins, Deutsch, Ellis, Greene, Guth, Harrison, Hawking, Linde, Page, Penrose, Polkinghorne, Rees, Sandage, Smolin, Susskind, Tegmark, Tipler, Vilenkin, Weinberg, Wheeler, Wilczek. They differ, of course, on what conclusion we should draw from this fact.

 

[Oncedeceived]

Brian Greene | Why is our Universe fine tuned for life? - Make sure you read all of it now, not just the title...
and when @AdamSK pointed out your use of Dawkins...

Bold and underlined as per below...

I said he was a scientist that believed in fine tuning, I didn't use him in any of my quotes.

 

[DogmaHunter]

I don't remember that result. If I recall, atheists tended to be better versed in history and in a broader spread of religions; they didn't do any better than Christians on Bible stories or Christian doctrine.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Societ...w-religion-better-than-believers.-Is-that-bad


From the article:
The US Religious Knowledge Survey, released Tuesday from the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, found atheists and agnostics know more basic facts about the Bible than either Protestants or Catholics

 

[DogmaHunter]

Interestingly enough, he really never provides evidence that all that apparent design is an illusion.

You mean, besides all the work he did during his carreer as an evolutionary biologist, along with the many many books he wrote on the topic like The Selfish Gene, The Ancestor's Tale, The Greatest Show on Earth, The Blind Watchmaker,... ?