Creationists False on Key Point

[Speedwell]

It doesn't matter. Whatever kind of literature they may be, there is no good theological reason that they shouldn't be two different stories. This pressing need to make them into a continuous narrative is not necessary to Christian doctrine and ought not be imputed to it.

 

[Ronald]

Ronald in post #44:

<< You misunderstand the Jewish style of writing; what appears to be chronological to you, is in fact a typical writing style used where the first chapter is an outline summation and then the second chapter goes back and fills in details. Let us make man in our image ... so God created man (which was Adam at that moment and shortly after Eve).
See you later guess it when you suggest this: "Either Genesis backtracks and inserts more material into the account of the sixth day, or Adam and Eve aren't part of the six day creation." >>




You need to read the text of Genesis 1&2 more closely. Genesis 2:4 says, “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.” It sounds like the creation account is starting all over again.




In Genesis One, God creates life in the sea and on the land before creating people. The Garden of Eden isn't mentioned and neither are Adam and Eve.

“And God said, 'Let the water teem with living creatures ...'” --Genesis 1:20 NIV

“And God said, 'Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds …'” --Genesis 1:24 NIV

“Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over ...” --Genesis 1:26 NIV




In Genesis Two, God creates life on the land after creating Adam.




“When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens—and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground—the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

“Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.”

--Genesis 2:4-8 NIV




Everything points to these stories as parables, teaching stories. They have meaning but they are not literal.

Can't explain any better than I did, if you don't get it, then there is no sense stating it again in more detail. I would recommend reading some commentaries on those verses from reputable scholars.

 

[ChetSinger]

Ronald in post #44:

<< You misunderstand the Jewish style of writing; what appears to be chronological to you, is in fact a typical writing style used where the first chapter is an outline summation and then the second chapter goes back and fills in details. Let us make man in our image ... so God created man (which was Adam at that moment and shortly after Eve).
See you later guess it when you suggest this: "Either Genesis backtracks and inserts more material into the account of the sixth day, or Adam and Eve aren't part of the six day creation." >>

You need to read the text of Genesis 1&2 more closely. Genesis 2:4 says, “This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created.” It sounds like the creation account is starting all over again.

In Genesis One, God creates life in the sea and on the land before creating people. The Garden of Eden isn't mentioned and neither are Adam and Eve.

“And God said, 'Let the water teem with living creatures ...'” --Genesis 1:20 NIV

“And God said, 'Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds …'” --Genesis 1:24 NIV

“Then God said, 'Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over ...” --Genesis 1:26 NIV

In Genesis Two, God creates life on the land after creating Adam.

“When the Lord God made the earth and the heavens—and no shrub of the field had yet appeared on the earth and no plant of the field had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no man to work the ground, but streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground—the Lord God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.”

“Now the Lord God had planted a garden in the east, in Eden; and there he put the man he had formed.”

--Genesis 2:4-8 NIV

Everything points to these stories as parables, teaching stories. They have meaning but they are not literal.

I think Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 do have significant differences, and I think that's because they're the work of two different authors.

The author of Genesis 1 could only be God; no one else was around to witness it.

So who is the author of Genesis 2? God?

I think not. I've done some reading on various versions of the "tablet theory" and I think Genesis 2 was written by a human author. Specifically, I think the first creation story ends with Genesis 2:4a, and the second begins with Genesis 2:4b, as described in Wiseman's tablet theory where he proposes that the author of the second story is Adam. In his theory, if my memory serves me, Adam's "tablet" ends with Genesis 5:1a and the next author (Noah) begins at Genesis 5:1b.

With regard to commonly-heard objections, I think Genesis 2:5 is referring to cultivated plants because the reason given for their absence includes "there was no man to work the ground". That is, plants were there, but not human-cultivated ones.

Also, I have no problem with God creating additional birds and "beasts of the field" in the garden in Genesis 2:19 because it's still the sixth day. That is, it's still the timeframe when Genesis 1 says these things were created.

So I don't see discrepancies between these two chapters. Differences in style and scope, yes. Likely due to different authors, yes. But regarding content I think they hang together.

 

[Revealing Times]

Creationists have clearly picked a fight with the wrong enemy. Why is science is the enemy. At a time when Christianity seems to be under attack from every direction, Creationists have picked a fight that Christians don't need.

Our fight has nothing to do with true science, because all true science is, is the journey from the unknown, to the known of what God did and didn't do. We have a problem with lies espoused as truths. We know these lies come from Satan, and we also know some in the Faith are going to fall for these untruths in the last days, hence the apostasy. By the way, I don't think Christianity has been weakened per se, I think the world is getting more evil, and the Church has many more who are of the world, and probably not true Christians. This was foretold.

Here's another assumption Creationists tend to make. Since Genesis is the first book of the Bible, they assume that it is the foundation of all that follows. Genesis, and the Eden story, is foundational. They fear that if you remove the first chapter or two of Genesis, the whole structure falls.

It doesn't matter who wrote Torah, I think Moses did, it's only five books, but its irrelevant, all scriptures are God Breathed. The Genesis account is true, in all of its detail, the problem, is we have some who believe it is six days literally, and some who believe the story to be bogus. The truth is, a day (YOM) can mean a period of time. The First day was the 400 million years of Darkness after the Inflation, then the 9 Billion years (approx.) of Light (Creation of stars ) until the Earth and Sun came into being 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (Darkness was on the Face of the DEEP) and the morning (Light) was the First day. Its all there, you just need to figure it out.

 

[Dale]

Can't explain any better than I did, if you don't get it, then there is no sense stating it again in more detail. I would recommend reading some commentaries on those verses from reputable scholars.

Ronald,

The point I made is evident from the text. I'm not sure why you think I need to consult commentators, but try this one.




Paschall & Hobbs, The Teachers Bible Commentary, Broadman, 1972

p. 11 col 1: “Genesis does not really stress either the time or the manner of God's creation, but the certainty is that all the universe, climaxed by man, is the creative work of God.”

p. 12 col 2: “It is clear that the passage has one major thrust—to declare that one Creator formed the natural world according to his own will and ordained it for his purpose.”

p. 14 col 2: “The tree of life represents everlasting life.”

 

[Ronald]

Ronald,

The point I made is evident from the text. I'm not sure why you think I need to consult commentators, but try this one.




Paschall & Hobbs, The Teachers Bible Commentary, Broadman, 1972

p. 11 col 1: “Genesis does not really stress either the time or the manner of God's creation, but the certainty is that all the universe, climaxed by man, is the creative work of God.”

p. 12 col 2: “It is clear that the passage has one major thrust—to declare that one Creator formed the natural world according to his own will and ordained it for his purpose.”

p. 14 col 2: “The tree of life represents everlasting life.”

Genesis does stress the time in which God created the earth, 6 (24-hour) days. The manner is supernaturally, a manner that we are not privy to. It does say that He created everything finished, complete and that man came from the dust of the earth - dirt. How did Moses know that the 17 minerals in our body are found in dirt?

 

[Revealing Times]

Genesis does stress the time in which God created the earth, 6 (24-hour) days. The manner is supernaturally, a manner that we are not privy to. It does say that He created everything finished, complete and that man came from the dust of the earth - dirt. How did Moses know that the 17 minerals in our body are found in dirt?

It doesn't say 6, 24 Hour days, that is just your assumption. YOM, is the word used for day and has several meanings, according to the context. One is a 24 hour day, one meaning is a year, another is a PERIOD of Time and thier is a couple of more meanings.

When God creates the Universe, He is already living in the future also, because He encompasses ALL TIME, so why would He feel the need to HURRY UP the creation ?

 

[Ronald]

It doesn't say 6, 24 Hour days, that is just your assumption. YOM, is the word used for day and has several meanings, according to the context. One is a 24 hour day, one meaning is a year, another is a PERIOD of Time and thier is a couple of more meanings.

When God creates the Universe, He is already living in the future also, because He encompasses ALL TIME, so why would He feel the need to HURRY UP the creation ?

This is so simply, I do not see how people distort it.
God created light on the first day. "... God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT. So the evening and the morning were the FIRST DAY." Gen. 1:4, 5
And on it goes for each day.
Everyone knows the difference between day and night and the combination of the two = 24 hours.
Don't distort to mean something else. It's simple -- unless you're blind.
Another argument would be that on the third day, He created all the botanicals. How could they survive thousands or millions of years without the SUN WHICH WAS CREATED ON DAY 4? No, it was created literally on the next day and that day wasn't some spiritual day in God's domain where a day is like a thousand years or vice versa. No, time is a physical dimension and so time is in our domain. Evolutionists distort the Creation story -- a five year old can understand this.

 

[miamited]

It doesn't say 6, 24 Hour days, that is just your assumption. YOM, is the word used for day and has several meanings, according to the context. One is a 24 hour day, one meaning is a year, another is a PERIOD of Time and thier is a couple of more meanings.

When God creates the Universe, He is already living in the future also, because He encompasses ALL TIME, so why would He feel the need to HURRY UP the creation ?

Hi RT,

It amuses me, these folks who get caught up on the word 'day'. As if it's the only word in the whole of the account. It says day, they will say, we can't know the length of a day. The word day can be used to define many different lengths of actual time. The word is day. How long is a day. Somewhere in the Scriptures God's word tells us that to Him a day can be a thousand years or a thousand years like a day. The word is day!!! It says day and all over the Scriptures we find references such as 'in that day', which is merely a way of saying at some future time. It could be a million years from now but the word is day. All it says is day. Day is the word that is used. It's a day and it could mean any period of time.


Then they stop. They can't be bothered to read the included context for the word day. There was evening and there was morning... In your reference to a day being a year, does it also say that there was evening and morning of that year?

Friend, God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine. God also knows the beginning from the end. Do you have any idea what that means?

God knew way back when, when Moses was given the first five books of the Scriptures to record, that man would never understand what He did if He were to just say, "and I did such and such and thus ended the first day." Because God knows that the word 'day' by itself can be translated or understood as several different lengths of time. But God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine and so He included a definer to be written with the word day. A contextual indicative to help us to understand what the word 'day', which can mean several lengths of time, does mean in this place of the Scriptures. He caused Moses to not only write the word 'day', but to also include the definer of that word as it would be if it were just a normal rotation of the planet kind of day. And there was evening and there was morning the first day.

So, you're welcome to go out and proclaim to all the world that the Scriptures just don't make it clear to us by saying that God created all that exists in this realm in 6 days. But, if you rather read it as God created all that exists in this realm in 6 evenings and mornings, which is what the Scriptures say, then you'll likely understand it better.

Go ahead and just throw the word day out of the account.

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. And God said, "Let there be light", and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. God called the light 'day', and the darkness He called 'night'. And there was the first evening and morning.

And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.” And there was the second evening, and the second morning.

And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good. Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was the third evening and morning.

So, I say if the word 'day' is causing all the confusion --- then just take it right out of the account.

God bless you
In Christ, Ted

 

[Revealing Times]

This is so simply, I do not see how people distort it.
God created light on the first day. "... God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light DAY and the darkness He called NIGHT. So the evening and the morning were the FIRST DAY." Gen. 1:4, 5
And on it goes for each day.
Everyone knows the difference between day and night and the combination of the two = 24 hours.
Don't distort to mean something else. It's simple -- unless you're blind.
Another argument would be that on the third day, He created all the botanicals. How could they survive thousands or millions of years without the SUN WHICH WAS CREATED ON DAY 4? No, it was created literally on the next day and that day wasn't some spiritual day in God's domain where a day is like a thousand years or vice versa. No, time is a physical dimension and so time is in our domain. Evolutionists distort the Creation story -- a five year old can understand this.

Believe me, I study the science, then the Bible or vice versa, I kick things around in forums, and this came to me about six months ago when I was studying Quantum Fluctuations. Looking at the WMAP/NASA Image below, that was brought about by using microwaves to map the entire existence of the Universe, we see that Q.F.'s were followed by a brief, 400,000 year glow, then there was 400 Million years of Dark Ages, followed by the first Stars coming into existence at 400 million years.

Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe
The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is a NASA Explorer mission that launched June 2001 to make fundamental measurements of cosmology -- the study of the properties of our universe as a whole. WMAP has been stunningly successful, producing our new Standard Model of Cosmology. WMAP's data stream has ended. Full analysis of the data is now complete. Publications have been submitted as of 12/20/2012.

WMAP TEAM RECEIVES THE GRUBER COSMOLOGY PRIZE

The reason I was studying Quantum Fluctuations is I found out that Scientists were stating that what caused the Big Bang was Q.F.'s, so as long as you had Q.F.'s or the Laws of Nature/A Set of Forces, something could come from nothing. But there is a catch. And I bet not one scientist sees it !! So Science has discovered you can create the Universe from nothing, providing we have the Forces/Laws of Nature (Q.F.) and these Laws of Nature aren't Physical, but they act on the physical. So if they Create the universe, that means they Predate the universe. WOW, do you see it coming ?

Quantum Fluctuations (Set of forces/Laws of nature, is a must)
1) Not Physical
2) Acts on the Physical
3) Created the Physical from Nothing
4) Predates the Universe

What does that sound like to you ? The Biblical God !!

1. God is a Spirit He is not a Physical being ( God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in like manner )
2. God said, In the Beginning ( So the Physical had a beginning )
3. God created all matter from nothing ( God created the Heaven and the Earth )
4. God is Eternal, the bible says so in many places.

The Big Bang did happen, but it happened 13.7 some odd billion years ago. Their problems is in understanding that a day (yom) in Hebrew can also mean a period of time, that has an evening and morning. Yom 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year.

Inflation lasted 400,000 years followed by 400 Million years of Darkness (there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep) then at the 400 million year mark, suns started to come into being, and of course they were still being created when our Sun and Earth came into existence 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (400 million years of Darkness) and the Morning, (9 Billion years of Stars) were the first day. Then Earth and the Sun was the Second day, etc. etc. The story is in perfect order, because the 5th day (500 million yeas to 250 million BC.) was the Sea Animals which came before the Land animals on the 6th day. (250 Million years BC to 6000 BC) and then Man was created IN GODS IMAGE 6000 years ago. There might have been animals created like men before this time, but they did not have the imparted Spirit of God that made us like unto Him.

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi RT,

It amuses me, these folks who get caught up on the word 'day'. As if it's the only word in the whole of the account. It says day, they will say, we can't know the length of a day. The word day can be used to define many different lengths of actual time. The word is day. How long is a day. Somewhere in the Scriptures God's word tells us that to Him a day can be a thousand years or a thousand years like a day. The word is day!!! It says day and all over the Scriptures we find references such as 'in that day', which is merely a way of saying at some future time. It could be a million years from now but the word is day. All it says is day. Day is the word that is used. It's a day and it could mean any period of time.

Hello Brother in Christ, here is the funny thing, I actually figured this out Six months ago, For real, LOL. Check it out and let me know what you think, we can kick it around. You were right, God did have secrets, but the end times opened up some secrets just like Daniel said would happen. I wrote this a few months back.

"yom" is a period of time, not always a day. I have done an in depth study, of science and Religion, then I tried to merge the two together using logic. For starters, God confused us at Babel, so He doesn't necessarily want us to know all that He knows. If the Universe is 13.7 billion years old and the Earth only 4.5 billion years old, why would anyone assume the First Day was 24 Hours ? My theory is below, I am not stating it is a fact, just my deductive reasoning.

God Created the Universe in His own time frame. (There is no time in Gods realm.) Looking to the (Above) WMAP/NASA the way the Universe is Mapped by the Microwaves, then reading the Creation Story, it all fits. Anyone that thinks God was speaking of Earth Rotations (Days) seems off kilter, the Earth was not even around until the Universe was 9.2 billion years old !!

God has no time in His Realm. Causation came about with the Creation of our universe. My "TIME THEORY" is based on study not just guess work. Since the Universe was created, and Earth was Formed 9.2 billion years latter, then the first day had to be 9.2 billion years Old.................................BECAUSE

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and Darkness was on he face of the deep. (See Map above) And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

{{ Notice, the Earth was void and without form, that is because God only Spoke it into Creation, it actuality it took 9.2 Billion years to form. Notice it says there was darkness on the face of the deep ? Well the WMAP/NASA Project, which has mapped out the Universe with Microwaves, says there was darkness on the face of the deep. (Big Bang, followed by Inflation, followed by Cosmic Microwave background where after 380,000 years loose electrons cool enough to combine with protons. The Universe becomes Transparent to Light. The Microwave background begins to shine. Then the dark ages/clouds of dark hydrogen gas cool and coalesce. }}

{{ The first stars appear..........Gas Clouds collapse, the fusion of Stars begin, the first of which appears at about 400 million years after the Big Bang. SO............When the Bible says Darkness was on the face of the deep, God knew exactly what was happening in the very beginning !! }}

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. {{ The First day was Darkness and Light. People have often confused this, but God is saying there was Darkness, then Light (Stars formed at 400 million years).......That was the first day. It lasted 9.2 Billion years, give or take a few million years....LOL. }}

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. {{ How does a firmament (Heaven/Air) divide the waters from the waters ? Well, God placed waters on the Earth, and the Sky has water in the Air, that's why it Rains !! This was the Second Day, so it couldn't have Started any sooner than 4.5 Billion years ago. And the Grasses and Herbs began to appear at about 900 Million years B.C. according to my study of Science books, so the Second Day lasted from 4.5 Billion years B.C. until about 900 Million years B.C. And as God stated, that was the 2ND DAY. }}

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

{{ So, since the Grasses and herb yielding fruits came about around 900 Million Years B.C. to 800 Million years B.C. that becomes the 3RD DAY. }}

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16 And God made two great lights; the greater light (SUN) to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the (MOON) night: he made the stars also. ( Which were, are and will still be created in the future, since it mentions the Stars, we know the LESSER LIGHT is the Moon, The Moon has more "Light" than all the stars combined in reality ) 17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

{Seems God set the Seasons the Axis created the perfect Seasons, and that was the fourth day. Probably happened at about the same time as the 3rd day, fairly close imho. And the Sun, Moon and Stars started lighting the Earth over time when their light reached the Earth.}

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

{{ Through a study of Science books and such it is determined that the Sea Creatures have been around much longer than the Land Creatures, and that jibes with Gods account here..............About 500 Million years ago the Sea Creatures and fowl came along, and that was the 5TH DAY. It lasted until about 250 million years B.C. }}

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

{{{ Through studying Science again the land animals/creatures started showing up around 250 million years ago. So this was the 6TH day........From 250 million years B.C. until 6000 years B.C. when God created man and rested from His creation. }}}

We are now in Gods day of rest or the 7TH DAY............

This actually all fits together in Gods timeline. It can not be perfect by the numbers of course, but it is an approximation that makes more sense than an earth that is only 6000 years old. Or in believing a universe that magically appeared from nothing.

Many seem to think that man is much older than 6000 years old, I ask, why is it nor recorded in history ? Secondly, Man became man when God imparted him with a Soul, and put His Spirit in us. Any Animal created before this impartation that made us into human beings (or made us in the image of God) , was not a Human Being as we are known today. They would just be another animal, nothing more, nothing less.

Again, this is only my theory from studying both science and the bible. But I believe this to be the truth.

 

[Ronald]

Believe me, I study the science, then the Bible or vice versa, I kick things around in forums, and this came to me about six months ago when I was studying Quantum Fluctuations. Looking at the WMAP/NASA Image below, that was brought about by using microwaves to map the entire existence of the Universe, we see that Q.F.'s were followed by a brief, 400,000 year glow, then there was 400 Million years of Dark Ages, followed by the first Stars coming into existence at 400 million years.

Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe
The Wilkinson Microwave Anisotropy Probe (WMAP) is a NASA Explorer mission that launched June 2001 to make fundamental measurements of cosmology -- the study of the properties of our universe as a whole. WMAP has been stunningly successful, producing our new Standard Model of Cosmology. WMAP's data stream has ended. Full analysis of the data is now complete. Publications have been submitted as of 12/20/2012.

WMAP TEAM RECEIVES THE GRUBER COSMOLOGY PRIZE

The reason I was studying Quantum Fluctuations is I found out that Scientists were stating that what caused the Big Bang was Q.F.'s, so as long as you had Q.F.'s or the Laws of Nature/A Set of Forces, something could come from nothing. But there is a catch. And I bet not one scientist sees it !! So Science has discovered you can create the Universe from nothing, providing we have the Forces/Laws of Nature (Q.F.) and these Laws of Nature aren't Physical, but they act on the physical. So if they Create the universe, that means they Predate the universe. WOW, do you see it coming ?

Quantum Fluctuations (Set of forces/Laws of nature, is a must)
1) Not Physical
2) Acts on the Physical
3) Created the Physical from Nothing
4) Predates the Universe

What does that sound like to you ? The Biblical God !!

1. God is a Spirit He is not a Physical being ( God is a Spirit and must be worshiped in like manner )
2. God said, In the Beginning ( So the Physical had a beginning )
3. God created all matter from nothing ( God created the Heaven and the Earth )
4. God is Eternal, the bible says so in many places.

The Big Bang did happen, but it happened 13.7 some odd billion years ago. Their problems is in understanding that a day (yom) in Hebrew can also mean a period of time, that has an evening and morning. Yom 1) a period of light; 2) a period of 24 hours; 3) a general, vague time; 4) a point of time; 5) a year.

Inflation lasted 400,000 years followed by 400 Million years of Darkness (there was Darkness on the Face of the Deep) then at the 400 million year mark, suns started to come into being, and of course they were still being created when our Sun and Earth came into existence 4.5 Billion years ago. So the Evening (400 million years of Darkness) and the Morning, (9 Billion years of Stars) were the first day. Then Earth and the Sun was the Second day, etc. etc. The story is in perfect order, because the 5th day (500 million yeas to 250 million BC.) was the Sea Animals which came before the Land animals on the 6th day. (250 Million years BC to 6000 BC) and then Man was created IN GODS IMAGE 6000 years ago. There might have been animals created like men before this time, but they did not have the imparted Spirit of God that made us like unto Him.

Like evolutionists and astronomers who think the Universe is billions of years old, you try to fit scripture into your Big Bang theory, hence it must have happened 13.7 billion years ago. You try desperately to harmonize scripture with man-made theories and it doesn't so you must distort the WORD so that it works and fits into your scientific box. The universe is huge, but just because these stars are billions of light years away, doesn't mean that the universe is billions of years old. How do they come to their conclusion of the age? Well, they figure it must be that old because light travels at 186,000 mi/sec, so there you have it. NO! If it was created in a natural way without God, without His supernatural power, than that would be the only logical conclusion.
God created the light in one day, it didn't take billions of years to get here. If has the appearance that it did, but he gave us the light instantly. So on the 5th day, animals saw the universe completely that was created the day before. On the 6th day, Adam saw the universe, that was only two days old. Now you may think this crazy and Stephen Hawking would think so too, but he is a fool!

 

[Revealing Times]

Like evolutionists and astronomers who think the Universe is billions of years old, you try to fit scripture into your Big Bang theory, hence it must have happened 13.7 billion years ago. You try desperately to harmonize scripture with man-made theories and it doesn't so you must distort the WORD so that it works and fits into your scientific box. The universe is huge, but just because these stars are billions of light years away, doesn't mean that the universe is billions of years old. How do they come to their conclusion of the age? Well, they figure it must be that old because light travels at 186,000 mi/sec, so there you have it. NO! If it was created in a natural way without God, without His supernatural power, than that would be the only logical conclusion.
God created the light in one day, it didn't take billions of years to get here. If has the appearance that it did, but he gave us the light instantly. So on the 5th day, animals saw the universe completely that was created the day before. On the 6th day, Adam saw the universe, that was only two days old. Now you may think this crazy and Stephen Hawking would think so too, but he is a fool!

No, you insist a DAY is a DAY when in the Hebrew language it had many different meanings, one which is a period of Time. God told the exact truth in Genesis one how he created the Universe. The Big Bang, contrary to your belief, supports the Creation story, 50-150 years ago, Scientists all said that the Universe was ETERNAL, and did not have a beginning, because they do not believe in God, or most don't. But about 50 years ago, two men discovered that the Universe did have a beginning, so the Holy Word is correct, IN THE BEGINNING, the Big Bang edifies the creation story. It is not Six days, that is just not reality.

Why do you think God created TWO LIGHTS ? That is the Atheists biggest argument, I run them off, because the First Darkness was the 400 million years of Darkness as shown by the WMAP satellite, they mapped out the ACTUAL UNIVERSE, this is like a real picture. ITS REAL. And the Stars started forming at 400 million years. So the Evening (Darkness) and the morning (Light) was the First day. That is why the Earth and Sun were created later, NOT TWICE, but it came into being at 4.5 Billion years. The Map shows the actual GULF, this proves God created the Universe, and you are still fixated on 6 days. Which is just not reality. Why would God need to fake it ? There is no time with God, He created it, and was already in the future also.

Everything I wrote, that God gave me, makes atheists run. It explains everything.

 

[miamited]

Hi RT,

You responded:

Again, this is only my theory from studying both science and the bible. But I believe this to be the truth.

Theories come and theories go. Yours isn't really much different than many others that I've heard from those trying to bend God's word to fit man's science.

However, Peter wrote this about things we find in the Scriptures that are hard to understand:
His letters (Paul's) contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.

In this instance, only one of our accounts can be the truth, if either one. Your 'theory' rests on our believing that not only is day indefinable, but so, too, is evening and morning. If your 'theory' is true, then there's really no reason why God caused to be written any references as to time. It also rests on our understanding that God doesn't understand language and men's understanding of it. Pretty much all of your timeline, the billions and billions of years from one step to the next, has to be forced into the words of the account against any regular or natural understanding of the words that were used. As I wrote before, God is wiser than you or I could ever hope to imagine.

My understanding. About 6,000 years ago God stepped into this realm of empty black space and spoke the earth to exist. At His command the planet earth merely appeared immediately, out of nothing, just as the Scriptures tell us. The earth was rotating on its axis when it was conceived and the period of time defined as days would immediately begin to pass as the earth continued to rotate on its axis.

Over the next five rotations of the earth, God completed the 'building' of the earth and the universe to be the home of a creature that He would create on day six (the sixth rotation of the earth upon its axis). Once He had completed building this realm and provided it with all that was needed to sustain the life of man and to endure forever, He created Adam and then Eve. From there we have the ages of the generations to give us a fairly close approximation of the age of this realm of God's creating. And yes, the Scriptures are quite clear that God created it all out of nothing. So, your claim that your theory is a better explanation than believing that the universe just magically appeared out of nothing, flies in the face of even more Scripture.

Now, I'm sure that you do believe your theory to be the truth. Most people who believe what they believe, do so with full faith that what they believe is the truth. Muslims believe with all their heart that it is the truth that Muhammad was the greatest prophet of God. Hindus believe with all their heart that it is the truth that we go through a number of incarnations of life as we journey through time. So, before we can believe what people tell us that what they believe is the truth, is in fact the truth, we have to investigate the evidence. Unfortunately, no one witnessed the creation, whether it took millions, billions of years, or mere days to complete. So, the only evidence that we have is God's testimony.

We can, of course, try to extrapolate what we know about the natural world today back through the ages and make claims that these natural 'laws' that we know operate within the universe explain for us the 'how' things happened at the creation event. The only problem with that is that God has shown on a number of occasions that when He works, the natural laws go out the window.

Unfortunately, that's the truth that most people find difficult to accept. That God can do what seems impossible to us.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Revealing Times]

God can do it, but why ? God lives in no realm of time, he create the Real of time for us, when God created the universe, he was at the Beginning and ending at the same time, He doesn't live in a realm where there is time or causation, hence He doesn't need to have been created. So why would God make a universe in 6 days that appears 13.7 billion years old, He has NO REASON to fake it, God created it and was in the past present and future all at once.

The Universe is 13.7 Billion years old. That is just a fact. Now, seeing as that is true, I think the biblical account matches my study. That is my opinion, we all have them.

 

[miamited]

Hi RT,

You responded:

God can do it, but why ? God lives in no realm of time, he create the Real of time for us, when God created the universe, he was at the Beginning and ending at the same time, He doesn't live in a realm where there is time or causation, hence He doesn't need to have been created. So why would God make a universe in 6 days that appears 13.7 billion years old, He has NO REASON to fake it, God created it and was in the past present and future all at once.

Yes, but all of this is also theoretical assumptions. You or I really don't have any idea of the reality of God's existence so far as how time works in His realm. What we know is that God says that He knows the end from the beginning. Now, we can imagine to ourselves how this might work in reality, but we don't really have any assurance that God doesn't experience time just like we do. That things happen and time passes in the heavenly realm much like it does in our realm. But, the truth is that we just don't know the reality of how God experiences time.

The Scriptures tell us that in the fullness of time Jesus came to us. The Genesis account tells us that there was a time that God called the beginning for this realm. There are a lot of clues in the Scriptures that could indicate that God knows and experiences time much like we do. If God is outside of any time constraints, then why isn't He already enjoying those for whom He has told us that He will be giving His promise of salvation? If God is outside of time, then why does Peter tell us that now is the time of God's patience? Why would there be patience if God is already at the end and the beginning? All the Scriptures tell us is that He knows the end from the beginning. He has foreknowledge.

So, I don't know and you don't either, how time is experienced in the heavenly realm. This idea that because God doesn't experience time as we do has nothing to do with what God has revealed to us in the Scriptures. God wrote the Scriptures for mankind that mankind could understand what He has done. God didn't write the Scriptures that other gods might understand or that the angels might understand. The angels already understand all that God has done and according to the Scriptures, they rejoiced. So, the words He used were words that He expected us to understand with our limited human reasoning and mental abilities and knowledge of language.

Finally, God didn't make a universe that appears 13.7 billion years old. God just made the universe. How we determine the age of what He has created is on us. We think that because the stars are billions of light years away that it must, therefore, have taken billions of years for the first light of those stars to get to us. But God works outside of the natural laws. He can make water stand on its head. He can make the sun to back up and to even stand still in the sky. He can make the sun to shine just normally and brightly in one town and then another town only a few miles away, He can make it so pitch black for three days that people can't even see their hands in front of their face. He can cause in one terrible night for every firstborn of an entire city to just die. Of both men and animals.

So, our understanding and aging of the earth and the universe is based on the 'fact' that all the natural laws that we know have always operated as we know them to operate today. But God has shown repeatedly that when He sets out to do something...they don't. For us to base our knowledge on natural laws that we know that God can set aside at any moment and for any purpose, we are making assumptions that we really can't know to be true.

Why do I believe that God created this realm in 6 days about 6000 years ago? Because God created this realm for man. Just as God created the angelic realm for the angels to exist with Him, God created this realm for mankind to exist with Him. There is no other reason for this realm to exist. God doesn't have some big picture window in front of His throne where for billions of years He's been watching this realm with no life in it. No! Not at all. God created this realm for man and according to the Revelation He will wrap up this realm pretty much just as quickly as He created it and we will move into the eternal existence. He will make the new heavens and the new earth and we will see just how fast God can create an existence that by our testing and understanding of natural laws will look just as old as this one, but we will have seen it come into existence.

All of our dating methods are based on some assumption that either crystalline breakdown, or the operation of light, or radioactive material of some sort has always degraded or traveled at some constant speed of some natural 'law'. However, because we know that God can throw out natural laws at His whim, then we can have no assurance that our assumptions are correct.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi RT,

There is also one other piece of Scriptures I'd like to bring to the table in this discussion. The Holman Christian Standard bible says it best:

Colossians 2:8 (CSB) Be careful that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit based on human tradition, based on the elemental forces of the world, and not based on Christ.

A few translations translate 'the elemental forces of the world' as some sort of spiritual forces, but I'm not convinced that the writer did indicate that these forces were spiritual in any way. Most translations translate it as natural, elemental or rudimentary forces. The Bible in Basic English stands right up and calls them 'theories of the world'. The Common English bible says 'the way the world thinks'. So, someone with greater knowledge than myself regarding the koine Greek of Paul's letter to the Colossians would have to explain to me why some newer translations have chosen to translate this passage implying that it refers to the spiritual rather than the physical nature of the world. But...

The passage seems to obviously teach against our being deceived by theories or ideas that are based on the natural properties of the physical world. This passage comes right after Paul has just written to them that all things have been created by and through Christ. Yes, I understand that a lot of folks aren't going to read it that way or even attach this piece of Scripture to the opening of Paul's letter that he is talking about the creation and all that was created. Sadly, some of that comes from our having separated the Scriptures into chapter and verse. We think to imagine that going from one chapter to another closes out one thought or idea and moves on to some other thought or idea. We christians are always digging out one singular verse and developing an entire theology around that singular verse and giving no regard to the context surrounding it in other verses and chapters.

I think it good for us to be mindful that the Scriptures were not written with the divisions that we have arbitrarily created within the writings themselves. Paul's letter, just like a letter that you might receive from a trusted friend, was written with a purpose and a subject that he would have felt at the time needed clarification among the believers. It would have been a letter that flows throughout its length with the purpose of conveying some message about the particular matter at hand. Yes, in some of his letters he does cover two or more different subjects, but each verse and each chapter that we have taken it upon ourselves to separate, isn't necessarily at all how Paul would have expected his letter to be understood or separated between the different subjects in those letter that do discuss different things. So, Paul's letter to would have been read more like this:

The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross. Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant. Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness—the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. He is the one we proclaim, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone fully mature in Christ. To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me. I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is. So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness. See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental forces of this world rather than on Christ. For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

When read as it was written--and honestly we can't really even be sure of the punctuation that we use to separate the individual sentences, but these marks have been added later by someone who thinks that they understand how the work would have been separated into the individual sentences--Paul's opening claim that all things were created by and through Christ is not greatly separated from his encouragement that we not be taken captive by this vain philosophy and theories based on the natural properties of the earth that the world will be following.

Of course, all of these things must be determined and discerned with the help of the Holy Spirit. The natural man cannot understand the spiritual things of God. If you want to believe that the earth is 13.7 billion years old that's perfectly ok with me. You may even be convinced in your heart that it doesn't make any difference to God what we believe about the creation event. However, that may all be true or it may not. Personally, I stumble over God's declaration of Abraham as a righteous man. He was declared righteous because he believed God.

I believe God. I believe that He caused the Scriptures to be written to communicate to man, in man's language, using ideas and thoughts and words that He expected man to understand pretty much in the simple form in which those same words would have been understood in any other written form written by anyone else. I believe that He did quantify the word 'day' by attaching to each day that it consisted of an evening and a morning just like any normal earth day is experienced today and has been now for some 6,000 years. I believe that God's foreknowledge of the wickedness of man and his natural bent to turn away from the truths of God, caused Him to include that definer of the word 'day'. That God's foreknowledge also caused Paul to later warn us about these ideas and theories that would come up concerning the creation of all things based on just the natural properties of the way things are supposed to work, rather than on our believing that God just supernaturally created all of this realm for and through His Son, our Lord, Jesus. That's what I believe.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Ronald]

No, you insist a DAY is a DAY when in the Hebrew language it had many different meanings, one which is a period of Time. God told the exact truth in Genesis one how he created the Universe. The Big Bang, contrary to your belief, supports the Creation story, 50-150 years ago, Scientists all said that the Universe was ETERNAL, and did not have a beginning, because they do not believe in God, or most don't. But about 50 years ago, two men discovered that the Universe did have a beginning, so the Holy Word is correct, IN THE BEGINNING, the Big Bang edifies the creation story. It is not Six days, that is just not reality.

Why do you think God created TWO LIGHTS ? That is the Atheists biggest argument, I run them off, because the First Darkness was the 400 million years of Darkness as shown by the WMAP satellite, they mapped out the ACTUAL UNIVERSE, this is like a real picture. ITS REAL. And the Stars started forming at 400 million years. So the Evening (Darkness) and the morning (Light) was the First day. That is why the Earth and Sun were created later, NOT TWICE, but it came into being at 4.5 Billion years. The Map shows the actual GULF, this proves God created the Universe, and you are still fixated on 6 days. Which is just not reality. Why would God need to fake it ? There is no time with God, He created it, and was already in the future also.

Everything I wrote, that God gave me, makes atheists run. It explains everything.

Disagree, the light represents day and the darkness represents night, it's simple, you distort it. But hold onto your view all you want ... no need to go back and forth.

 

[miamited]

Hi RT,

To expound just a bit on my closing thoughts above. As I understand the Scriptures, we live in a realm created by God. Before God stepped into this realm and commanded, "Let there be light!" Before that moment, God's purpose was to create a creature that He would call man. A second type of creature that we know that God created for His pleasure. God had already created the angelic realm and we know this because there is a place in Scripture that tells us that the angels rejoiced as God created this realm. I believe they also stood in awe and amazement as God built this home for this second creature that God made to love and live with Him.
Job accounts for us some of what was happening in heaven as God created this realm:

On what were its footings set, or who laid its cornerstone--while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

So, the angels stood by as God created this other realm for which He designed it to support the life of flesh and blood. I rather imagine that God may have stretched out His hands to His angels and said to them, "Watch this and behold what I can do!" He stepped into this realm and said before all of them, "Let there be light!", and the angels rejoiced as light filled this realm. Then He spoke all of the other events into being that made up the creation of this realm and throughout it all the angels likely ooohd and aaahd as each piece of the puzzle fell into place. Satan likely knew during the work of the creation event that he was toast. I can see him there with all the other angels, already having rebelled against God, and gulping and saying to himself, "Uh-oh. I can't do that."

Now yes, all of that is a majority the work of my imagination and I readily admit that, but the Scriptures do tell us that the angels were present as God set the foundations of this realm in place and that the angels rejoiced as He did it. God built this realm for no other purpose than to sustain and support the life of a creature of flesh and blood that He would call man that He would create as soon as He completed the building of this realm.

The Scriptures also tell us that God will bring this existence, as we know it now, to an end just about as quickly. God created this realm and He built it for the express purpose of being a home for man. He knew by His foreknowledge that man would sin. He knew that a perfect sacrifice would be necessary for man's sin but that in the end -- the whole purpose for His very first stepping into this realm and commanding, "Let there be light" -- was that in the end, when all of His plan was fully completed, He would gather those who believed and loved Him and take them to live with Him in a perfect and eternal life of joy, satisfaction and peace. All the rest will be left to fend for themselves in an existence that Jesus called hell.

As I understand the Scriptures, that is exactly what God has done and is doing and what He has given us testimony of through His written word. So, this idea that the physical parts of this realm of creation are billions or millions of years old is just wasted talk as far as I am concerned. God created this realm with purpose and part of the universe declaring the great and awesome glory of God, is that He just spoke it all into existence in mere moments. He created it all to be just as it is and it will remain as such until He makes everything new again. That's the power and glory and wisdom of God.

And God loves us just as He loves His angels, and in the end, when this life as we know it is over and God throws down His gavel and pronounces judgment on all men and angels, God will have created the perfect existence with creatures that He loves and that love Him and we will each honor and obey each other and live in peace and satisfaction with the life that God has created us to enjoy. The revelation tells us that once that time comes, and yes God does experience and work through time, that all those men and angels who refused God, their Creator and Sustainer and Giver of life, His rightful place, will live an existence that is just constant turmoil, strife and torment.

So, as Peter has written to us, now is the time of God's patience. He has laid out the plan and done all the work necessary that He will enjoy the fruits of all His work and one day He will call all men and angels to account and from that day there will be a great chasm established between those who love God and those who don't.

As I understand the Scriptures, that's how all this is going to work out. When Jesus looked up to heaven and declared to his Father, "It is finished!", it was this part of the plan that provides salvation for sinful man that he was talking about. But, the fulfillment of the entire plan, the part at the end where God gets what He created these two realms for, won't be finished until the day of God's judgment. That's what I believe!

I can read and study all that man has published and written about how the heavens and the earth came to exist and I just know that I know in my heart that there is not a word of truth in any of it. God merely spoke, commanded if you will, and this realm just began to pop into existence piece by piece over 6 evenings and mornings of the length of time of a normal and ordinary day, just as we experience days today. As the Scriptures declare, "For in six days God made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them."

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Speedwell]

About 6,000 years ago God stepped into this realm of empty black space and spoke the earth to exist. At His command the planet earth merely appeared immediately, out of nothing, just as the Scriptures tell us.

"Empty black space" is not nothing. If God created the universe out of nothing then He had to create space and time, too. The 'Big Bang' theory has a similar tenet, that space and time came into existence with it.