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Rapture timing

Psalm3704

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Another desperate attempt to try and change the subject of the discussion.

There's that word desperate again. Thanks for the encouragement.

Both the living and the dead will be caught up together, in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

That's funny. That wasn't what you said only a few days ago when you claimed the dead in Christ comes down from heaven to meet those alive being caught up at the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. Post#542 below.

People who are in heaven, come DOWN from heaven with the Lord to earth, whereby the ones on earth who are alive and remain, are CAUGHT UP, together with those who come down from heaven with the Lord.

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lordwill by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive andremain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17

Looks like another one of your fabrication backfired again and exploded in your face I might add.



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The resurrection/rapture are one event that occurs on the last day, at His coming.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:39-40

A post-trib rapture does NOT fall on the last day! Don't you know a post-trib rapture happens after the tribulation? Hence the term "post" tribulation rapture.

Has it dawned on you yet that any rapture that falls on the last day of the tribulation is not after the tribulation?

The first day immediately after the tribulation is the first day of the millennium. That's the day your so called post-trib rapture occurs.

There's only one rapture that literally falls on the last day, the Pre-Tribulation rapture. It happens on the last day of the church age when the church is taken into heaven leaving the posties to endure the antichrist till the end, something you guys seem to desire.

So much for your "last day" fabrication of scripture as this also backfired and exploded in your face.

BTW, John 6:39-40 is not a prophecy on the rapture. Christ already raised them up on the last day which was His last day when He died on the cross and resurrected the OT saints.

Matthew 27:50-53 Good News Translation (GNT)
50 Jesus again gave a loud cry and breathed his last. 51 Then the curtain hanging in the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split apart,52 the graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life. 53 They left the graves, and after Jesus rose from death, they went into the Holy City, where many people saw them.


The coming of the Lord results in: The gathering [resurrection/rapture] of His people and the destruction of the antichrist.

You can't have a post-trib rapture when the coming day of the Lord happens while the antichrict is still alive. The tribulation ends shortly after the antichrist dies. It doesn't end with the a/c still alive.

Armageddon occurs on the 7th year of the tribulation and Christ destroys the a/c at Armageddon. Christ's second coming to earth begins at the 6th vial, Revelation 16:15. Armageddon is also at the 6th vial which are not after the tribulation, thus your argument conflicts with Matthew 24:29-31, the classic but faulty post-trib scripture.

Revelation 16:12-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared. 13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

16 And they gathered them together to the place called in Hebrew, Armageddon.

Don't you get tire feeling so dimwitted taking scriptures out of context trying to twist it to form your own conclusion only to end up having it backfire and explode in your face? You're such an amateur twister. LOL!













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Biblewriter

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When we try to build scenarios on the interpretation of a few passages, we are sure to get into trouble. The claim that when Jesus comes, everything will suddenly be over, ignores somewhere between 75% and 90% of all end time prophecy in the Bible.
 
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Straightshot

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Your posting above is way too long and cumbersome, you should shorten significant subjects in a separate dialogue

At any rate as I see you trying to substantiate a post-tribulation view, I cannot agree

I will point out one flaw that I see .... you say that the martyrs of the tribulation will be resurrected after the days of the tribulation

These tribulation martyrs will be resurrected just at the ending of the tribulation .... however, the Lord's gatherings of the mortal survivors of the tribulation will not be resurrected, but will enter and populate his millennial kingdom .... as mortals

There are 3 resurrections of the first type to eternal life .... the pre-tribulation, those martyrs who become believers during the tribulation, the two witnesses at the end

Those gathered after the days of the tribulation will not be resurrected [Matthew 24:29-31; 25:31-46]

The resurrection to the second death [the second type of resurrection] will include all of the unbelieving human spirits from the beginning of human creation .... this resurrection will take place at the ending of the Lord's millennial kingdom upon the earth [Revelation 20:11-15]
 
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Straightshot

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"Looks like another one of your fabrication backfired again and exploded in your face I might add."


It did for sure .... the Lord will bring no resurrected humans with him to get those believers living on the earth at the time

The dead in Christ will be resurrected and those living at the time will transformed to immortality .... both will be "caught up" together .... not one before the other

Post-tribulation thinking has been induced by Satan himself for the purpose of calling the Lord's pre-tribulation harpazo action a lie .... and Satan has a motive for doing this

To discredit the Lord and to deceive many people into the tribulation period where he will be waiting for them .... to hunt and kill them before they have a chance to repent [Revelation 3:9-15; 12:12]

The devil has pulled this same kind of hobgoblin before [Genesis 3:1-5]
 
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Riberra

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Psalm3704 said:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:


Jesus died and Jesus rose from the dead. The dead in Christ died and will also rise from the dead not descend from heaven. You do know there's no such thing as dead people in heaven, right?

For the sake of argument,let suppose that you die tomorrow in a car accident ,can you tell us where your soul will go after your death :is it in sheol with the unbelievers or in Heaven with those who sleep(died) in Jesus Christ ?
 
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Psalm3704

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For the sake of argument,let suppose that you die tomorrow in a car accident ,can you tell us where your soul will go after your death :is it in sheol with the unbelievers or in Heaven with those who sleep(died) in Jesus Christ ?

That question could potentially open a can of worms as the soul and body are not the same entity. During death, the body will die and sleep in the grave until it's resurrected, however the soul doesn't die. The soul also has no barring on the timing of the rapture but during the rapture, the bodies in the graves awaits the next resurrection that will occur.

This is a different topic from that of the OP and again, what happens to the soul upon a person's death has no barring on the timing of the rapture. If that's something you wish to discuss, with due respect to the OP, I suggest you open a new thread and get feelbacks from others with more knowledge in this area than myself.








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Psalm3704 said in post 561:

A post-trib rapture does NOT fall on the last day!

Regarding "the last day", note that in verses like John 6:39-40 and John 12:48, the original Greek word translated as the last "day" (hemera: G2250) doesn't have to mean the last 24-hour day, but can be used figuratively to refer to a much longer period of time (e.g. see the Greek of 2 Corinthians 6:2; 2 Peter 3:8, and John 8:56). John 6:39-48 and John 12:48 will occur in the last period of time of this present earth, but they won't occur on the same 24-hour day (Revelation 20:5).

For when Jesus returns, only the church will be physically resurrected and finally-judged (1 Corinthians 15:21-23, Revelation 20:5; Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27; Matthew 25:19-30; 2 Corinthians 5:10, Luke 12:45-48). The obedient part of the physically resurrected church, including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist, will then reign on the earth with the returned Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21). Only sometime after the 1,000 years and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39) will the rest of the dead (of all times) be physically resurrected (Revelation 20:5) and finally-judged at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15).

Also, the "last days" began in the 1st century AD with Jesus' 1st coming (Hebrews 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last days can be the last 3, roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Peter 3:8) of the 7, roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 BC to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Revelation 21:1) in roughly 3,000 AD. So the last "days" can be the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' 1st coming to sometime after the future millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), which will be part of the last, roughly 1,000-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8), which could begin at Jesus' still-unfulfilled 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8).

Psalm3704 said in post 561:

There's only one rapture that literally falls on the last day, the Pre-Tribulation rapture. It happens on the last day of the church age . . .

Note that there is no such thing as the church age, for the church will continue in the world throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21, John 17:15). For just as the church will continue in the world throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), so the church will then continue forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Psalm3704 said in post 561:

It happens on the last day of the church age when the church is taken into heaven leaving the posties to endure the antichrist till the end, something you guys seem to desire.

Regarding "something you guys seem to desire", note that no Christians desire the tribulation instead of Jesus' 2nd coming, even though those Christians who (rightly) hold to the post-tribulation rapture view know that the tribulation must come first (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13). For a Christian (whether male or female) who holds to the post-tribulation rapture view is like a pregnant woman nearing the end of her term. She isn't desiring birthing pains instead of the birth of her child, but she knows that birthing pains must come first (John 16:21-22, Isaiah 26:17-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23).

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Job should be looked to by obedient Christians as an example of patient endurance through suffering (James 5:11). Just as God allowed Satan to bring suffering to righteous Job (Job chapters 1-2), so God sometimes allows Satan to bring suffering to obedient Christians (Revelation 2:10). And during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Satan will be allowed to unleash his wrath against obedient Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

By the power of Satan working against Job (Job 1:12), Job first suffered the loss of his wealth and servants from murderous robbers (Job 1:14-15,17) and a natural disaster (Job 1:16), and suffered the death of all his children in a natural disaster (Job 1:18-19). Then, again by the power of Satan working against him (Job 2:6), Job suffered the loss of his health (Job 2:7). But he remained patient through all his loss and suffering, never cursing God because of it (Job 2:9-10, Job 1:20-22), but wholly trusting in God through it all (Job 13:15).

Because of this, God greatly rewarded Job after his suffering was over, giving him twice as much wealth as he had before (Job 42:10,12, Job 1:3) and the same number of children as he had before (Job 42:13, Job 1:2), and giving him a very long life (Job 42:16), so that he lived to see his grandchildren, great-grandchildren, and great-great-grandchildren (Job 42:16). While he was still suffering, Job mistakenly thought that his suffering was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11), when in fact God had no wrath against him, because he was righteous in God's eyes (Job 1:1,8, Job 2:3). Instead, Job was suffering from the hand of Satan (Job 1:12, Job 2:7). Similarly, during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the suffering of obedient Christians won't be God's wrath against them, but Satan's wrath against them (Revelation 12:9,17, cf. Revelation 2:10).

God allowed Satan to bring loss and suffering to Job in order to prove that Job didn't love God just because God had made him wealthy and secure (Job 1:9-12) and healthy (Job 2:4-6), but that Job would continue to love and trust God even if all his wealth, family, and health were stripped away from him. Indeed, Job would have continued to love God even if God had killed him (Job 13:15). This is the kind of love for God that Christians will need to have during the future tribulation. They will need to continue to love God even when he allows Satan (the dragon) and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") to make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 12:9,17, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Matthew 24:9-13), stripping away all their wealth and family and leading them away to be beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6). Christians must so love God and so trust him that they have no fear of suffering or death (Revelation 2:10, Hebrews 2:15), knowing that even death will only bring their still-conscious souls into the presence of Jesus in heaven (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43).

Christians mustn't love their mortal lives to where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep from getting killed (Mark 8:35-38, John 12:25, Revelation 12:11), just as Christians mustn't love their families to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their families from starving or getting killed (Matthew 10:37, Luke 14:26). And Christians mustn't love their wealth to the point where they will deny Jesus Christ and the Bible in order to keep their wealth from being taken away (Matthew 6:24; 1 Timothy 6:9-10). Jesus Christ requires Christians to forsake everything, even their own lives, for his sake (Luke 14:33, Luke 9:23, Matthew 10:38-39), just as he forsook everything, even his own life, for their sake (Philippians 2:6-8; 2 Corinthians 5:15; 1 Corinthians 15:3).

1 Peter 4:12 ¶Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

Psalm3704 said in post 561:

It happens on the last day of the church age when the church is taken into heaven leaving the posties to endure the antichrist till the end . . .

Regarding "leaving the posties", note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture.

Is such a mistaken idea usually based on Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41? If so, people should realize that these passages refer to what will happen at Jesus' 2nd coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, cf. Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the 2nd coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the physically resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' 2nd coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) in the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the 1st heaven) with the obedient part of the church to bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the 2nd coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed by God, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the 2nd-coming wrath of God (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).

Psalm3704 said in post 561:

BTW, John 6:39-40 is not a prophecy on the rapture. Christ already raised them up on the last day which was His last day when He died on the cross and resurrected the OT saints.

Matthew 27:50-53 Good News Translation (GNT)
50 Jesus again gave a loud cry and breathed his last. 51 Then the curtain hanging in the Temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook, the rocks split apart, 52 the graves broke open, and many of God's people who had died were raised to life. 53 They left the graves, and after Jesus rose from death, they went into the Holy City, where many people saw them.

Matthew 27:50 ¶Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Note that in Matthew 27:52, the original Greek word (egeiro: G1453) translated as "arose" can refer to recently-dead people's bodies being resuscitated back to mortal life, like how Jesus "raised (egeiro)" the recently-dead Lazarus (John 12:1), who was one of Jesus' followers (John 11:11, cf. John 15:14), back to mortal life, by crying out with a loud voice (John 11:43-44). The dead saints who were raised sometime later when they heard Jesus cry out with a loud voice on the Cross (Matthew 27:50-52, John 5:25), and who came out of their graves after Jesus' physical resurrection (Matthew 27:53), could have also been recently-dead followers of Jesus. Their bodies were resuscitated back to mortal life, like happened with Lazarus (John 12:1). For the resurrection of Jesus' followers into immortal physical bodies won't happen until his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which won't happen until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

The 3 stages of a harvest are firstfruits, main harvest, and gleaning, which can typify 3 physical resurrections: 1. the past, firstfruits physical resurrection of Jesus only (1 Corinthians 15:20,23, Luke 24:39); 2. the future physical resurrection of the entire church at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:23,52; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Romans 8:23-25), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31), and right before the millennium (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6); and then 3. the physical resurrection of everyone else at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), which will occur sometime after the millennium and the subsequent Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Psalm3704 said in post 561:

Christ's second coming to earth begins at the 6th vial, Revelation 16:15.

Regarding Revelation 16:15, there Jesus is encouraging and warning those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at the time of the 6th vial (Revelation 16:12), near the end of the future tribulation. They will still be waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Jesus will be encouraging them to hang on just a little longer until his 2nd coming in Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, right after the destruction of Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" at the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2 to 20:3).
 
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Straightshot said in post 564:

Post-tribulation thinking has been induced by Satan himself for the purpose of calling the Lord's pre-tribulation harpazo action a lie .... and Satan has a motive for doing this

To discredit the Lord and to deceive many people into the tribulation period where he will be waiting for them .... to hunt and kill them before they have a chance to repent [Revelation 3:9-15; 12:12]

Regarding "to deceive many people into the tribulation", do you mean that there will be only a partial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives? If so, note that nothing in the Bible says or requires that any believer will be left behind at the rapture, that the entire church won't be raptured (gathered together) at the time of Matthew 24:31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1, and 1 Thessalonians 4:17, which will be the time of Jesus' 2nd coming, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). For the need for believers to be ready for Jesus' 2nd coming (Matthew 24:44, Matthew 25:10) doesn't have to do with whether or not they will be raptured at that time, but with whether or not they will lose their salvation at that time (e.g. Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 25:26,30, Mark 8:35-38).

For some saved people, at the judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at his 2nd coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why saved people know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as unbelievers if they don't continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Straightshot said in post 564:

Post-tribulation thinking has been induced by Satan himself for the purpose of calling the Lord's pre-tribulation harpazo action a lie ....

Regarding "Post-tribulation thinking has been induced by Satan himself", note that just the opposite could be the case. For the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is dangerous, because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he lied to them, and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think: "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-tribulation. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they had held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers completely unprepared mentally to endure the future tribulation).

The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything they are going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that is coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or Jesus' return, immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

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As an analogy of this mental preparation, imagine that some kids were at a summer camp, and their counselor told them: "Tomorrow, there is going to be a long, hard hike". The kids walked away and started talking among themselves. One of them said: "Well, he didn't say that we all have to go on the hike, right?" And a 2nd kid said: "And he didn't say that we all have to go the whole distance". But a 3rd kid said: "I'm pretty sure that he meant the hike's whole distance is for all of us. He didn't say there's going to be a long, hard hike for only some of us, and a day of goofing off, or only a short, easy hike for others of us". But the 1st kid answered: "Nah, we don't have to go on that hike. I'm going fishing tomorrow". And the 2nd kid answered: "We all don't have to go the whole distance". But the 3rd kid answered: "Don't be so sure, you two. I'm going to bed early, so I'll be all fresh and ready for the whole distance of the hike".

The next day at the morning camp meeting, the 1st kid brought his fishing pole and was all set for a day of fishing. But the 3rd kid wore his sturdy hiking boots, and had a big canteen of water on his belt, and was all mentally prepared for a long day of hard hiking. The counselor then told the kids: "Okay, in a few minutes, we're all going to start on the hike I told you about, so make sure you've got everything you need". The 1st kid felt sick to his stomach when he heard that. He dropped his fishing pole and sat down on the ground and started crying like a baby. He just couldn't imagine starting on a long, hard hike after he'd been all set for a day of just sitting around fishing. But he was forced to go on the whole hike anyway, and this made him and the 2nd kid (who thought that he wouldn't have to go the whole distance) so mad at the counselor that they grumbled against him to the other kids during the hike, cursing him out as a cruel taskmaster (cf. Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21).

But the 3rd kid took the whole hike in stride (cf. Revelation 14:12, Revelation 13:10), and stuck up for the counselor the whole time, even though the 3rd kid suffered awfully from blisters during the hike. The counselor, even though he was at the head of the hiking line, could overhear what the kids said behind him. And after the hike was over, he made sure to reward the 3rd kid by giving him as a gift the counselor's own fishing pole, and by making sure the 3rd kid was assigned day after day only to the most enviable camp duties, like getting to build and light the nightly campfire, and getting to make the evening camp announcements over the camp's PA system. But the counselor made sure to assign the 1st and 2nd kids to the worst kitchen- and latrine-cleaning duties day after day.

Straightshot said in post 564:

The devil has pulled this same kind of hobgoblin before [Genesis 3:1-5]

The devil's theology is to contradict God's Word with something which sounds better to humans, in order to deceive them into rejecting God's will (Genesis 3:1-6, Matthew 16:21-23; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4).
 
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Straightshot

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"Regarding "to deceive many people into the tribulation", do you mean that there will be only apartial rapture of the church, sometime before the 2nd coming, of only those in the church who are ready for the rapture by simply believing that it is pre-tribulation, and/or by living holy lives?"


The Lord's true ecclesia are the only ones who will experience the event .... there will not be a "partial rapture" ..... the event will include all of the dead in Christ and those living at the time .... 100%

The professing "church" is filled with apostasy today .... so it is those unsaved and who profess only that will enter the tribulation at the time: those with out oil [the holy spirit] [Matthew 25:1-13] .... those spewed into the tribulation [Revelation 3:15-19]

These scriptures should serve as a warning to those who profess and think they are saved when they are not for what ever reason

The Lord is going to immortalize His own just before He judges an unbelieving world .... believe this

When this truth is presented today it is most likely going to be ignored, or out right refuted .... and this tells me that there is a disconnect condition with those who display their disdain for His promise on the matter

Bottom line .... there is no excuse for refuting the Lord's promise on this issue, and if one is rejecting it, there is something very wrong with the behavior

He is quite clear about it and He has many scriptures that define His intent

.... there are no "ifs" or "buts"

The promise: [1 Corinthians 15:20-23; 15:51-58; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 5:1-9; 2 Thessalonians 2:1; Matthew 25:1-13; Revelation 3:10]

The evidence: Revelation 4:4; 5:1-10; 7:9-17; 11:1; 12:12; 13:6; 17:4; 18:4; 19:1-9; 19:14 20:1-4 [those already on thrones]]
 
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Riberra

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These scriptures should serve as a warning to those who profess and think they are saved when they are not for what ever reason
Can you tell us what being Saved by Jesus Christ's blood (Salvation) means for you --you seem to believe that Salvation means being taken out of the Earth while still alive to Heaven before the Tribulation.., is that right ?Do you know that Jesus' Gospel is all about SAVING the SOULS of those who believe in Him?The bodies of the believers will be resurrected here on Earth (body and soul reunited in a new immortal incorruptible physical body)unto Jesus' Coming and we will forever be with Jesus to reign with Him here on the Earth...Jesus will not return to Heaven after His Coming.
 
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Riberra

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That question could potentially open a can of worms as the soul and body are not the same entity. During death, the body will die and sleep in the grave until it's resurrected, however the soul doesn't die. The soul also has no barring on the timing of the rapture but during the rapture, the bodies in the graves awaits the next resurrection that will occur.
The souls of the believers goes to Heaven after their physical body is dead.
These are the souls of the believers which are in Heaven with Jesus who awaits the resurrection ...the bodies in the graves decays.
knowing where the souls of the believers goes after their death is the key to understand the timing of the rapture.
It explain the meaning of
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.

When Jesus will DESCEND from Heaven

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall DESCEND from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
 
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Straightshot

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"Can you tell us what being Saved by Jesus Christ's blood (Salvation) means for you --you seem to believe that Salvation means being taken out of the Earth while still alive to Heaven before the Tribulation"


All who are truly saved and of His ecclesia of the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal together just before He brings His judgment upon an unbelieving world

.... many scriptures attest to this truth in a number of ways

Salvation is one thing and a few people possess it .... and those that have it are going when He calls .... no doubt

Only the foolish man would refute Him on the matter

There are scads of people today who do not possess salvation, but think they do .... and these are not going .... believe it

When you hear the blatant attacks upon His intent to do what He clearly states on the matter you can know that those who do this are not connected and they are unsaved .... otherwise they would know .... the transference of His holy spirit to the believer in the born again experience reveals this truth just as it is written in His Word

And the scoffers of the same need a witness on the matter so that they can correct their course .... what are you doing as a teacher?

Those that make a habit of and teach against the Lord's action and timing are committing grave error .... and so will those who buy their story .... not good for either

Here is what you have to decide .... is the Lord the liar?.... or is the devil?

.... I know the answer, and so you have to decide for yourself
 
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Riberra

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"Can you tell us what being Saved by Jesus Christ's blood (Salvation) means for you --you seem to believe that Salvation means being taken out of the Earth while still alive to Heaven before the Tribulation"


All who are truly saved and of His ecclesia of the dead in Christ and those living at the time will be made immortal together just before He brings His judgment upon an unbelieving world

.... many scriptures attest to this truth in a number of ways

Salvation is one thing and a few people possess it .... and those that have it are going when He calls .... no doubt

Only the foolish man would refute Him on the matter

There are scads of people today who do not possess salvation, but think they do .... and these are not going .... believe it

When you hear the blatant attacks upon His intent to do what He clearly states on the matter you can know that those who do this are not connected and they are unsaved .... otherwise they would know .... the transference of His holy spirit to the believer in the born again experience reveals this truth just as it is written in His Word

And the scoffers of the same need a witness on the matter so that they can correct their course .... what are you doing as a teacher?

Those that make a habit of and teach against the Lord's action and timing are committing grave error .... and so will those who buy their story .... not good for either

Here is what you have to decide .... is the Lord the liar?.... or is the devil?

.... I know the answer, and so you have to decide for yourself
Do you believe that Jesus can save your soul,... yes or no ?
Note that i believe the Scriptures who say that the dead in Christ and the believers still alive and REMAIN UNTO the Coming of Jesus will receive an immortal body and will be gathered together to meet Jesus in the air just prior that Jesus destroy by the Glory of His Coming the unrepentant sinners assembled at Armageddon.
 
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Riberra

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He has .... no doubt
Then you surely know that the souls of the believers goes to Heaven to be with Jesus after the death of their physical body, and that this is the souls of the believers who are in Heaven that Jesus will bring with Him when Jesus will descend from Heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-16
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.
 
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Straightshot

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I don't agree with what you just said at all

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven

A man's spirit is returned to His maker at death and is waiting for his fate still pending

And dead men no nothing .... are not ware of time passing in the material world on the earth

When the Lord calls for His true ecclesia the dead in Christ will rise and those living will be called to immortality together .... at the same moment .... all of the related scriptures tell this truth

If you don't want to believe this that is OK with me
 
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Riberra

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--Part 1--
When the Lord calls for His true ecclesia the dead in Christ will rise and those living will be called to immortality together .... at the same moment .... all of the related scriptures tell this truth

If you don't want to believe this that is OK with me
I believe it.That will happen UNTO the Coming of Jesus. This is called the Parousia.The problem is that you have been wrongly leaded to believe by false teachers that this will happen before the Tribulation.
 
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Riberra

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--Part 2--
I don't agree with what you just said at all

No man has gone to heaven except the One who has come down from heaven
That's true, nobody in their flesh and bone body...that is why John talk that he saw -in his visions- the SOULS of those being slain for their testimony of Jesus at the opening of the 5th seal ...The crowd to large to number coming out of -great tribulation- wearing white clothes are the souls of other martyrs that were also slain for their testimony of Jesus...as prophesied at the opening of the 5th seal

Those who will be beheaded by the Beast during the last 42 months of the Tribulation of the END TIME arrive in Heaven only in Revelation 15.The large crowd that John saw in Heaven in Revelation 19 ready for the marriage are all the souls of all the dead believers that Jesus will bring with Him when Jesus will descend from Heaven...1 Thessalonians 4:14

A man's spirit is returned to His maker at death and is waiting for his fate still pending
Do you believe that even the spirit /soul of the unbelievers goes to Heaven waiting for his fate still pending?

And dead men no nothing .... are not ware of time passing in the material world on the earth
True ,when the spirit/soul of the believers in Jesus return to God in Heaven it is placed in a state of rest (and peace)until the resurrection of the believers, -thus the term those who sleep in Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

The spirit /soul of the unbelievers goes into Sheol /Hell where it stay conscious and in a very uncomfortable state until the great white throne judgement.
 
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Psalm3704

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Regarding "the pre-tribulation numbers", note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church.

The Rapture pertains to God’s mercy and grace. The Second Coming pertains to God’s wrath.

At the Rapture, Jesus is the Morning Star-- 2 Peter 1:19, Revelation 2:28 and Revelation 22:16 --(which PRECEDES the sunrise of the New Day). At the Second Coming, Jesus is the Sun of Righteousness--Malachi 4:1-2 --(which shines IN the New Day).

The Rapture is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, the Church, at THE END of the New Testament-- 2 Peter 1:19 and Revelation 22:16. The Second Coming is the HOPE of Jesus’ people, Israel, at THE END of the Old Testament-- Malachi 4:1-2.

At the Rapture, the Church MEETS Jesus in the air in the clouds. At the Second Coming, Jesus sets His feet on the earth at the Mount of Olives.

At the time of the Rapture, the Mount of Olives will REMAIN UNCHANGED. At the Second Coming, the Mount of Olives IS DIVIDED, forming a valley east of Jerusalem.

At the time of the Rapture, Church saints are TRANSLATED (bodies instantly changed to immortal without passing through a route called death). NO saints are translated at the Second Coming when Jesus places His feet back on earth.

At the time of the Rapture, the world is NOT JUDGED for sin--but instead SINKS DEEPER into sin. At the Second Coming, the world IS JUDGED at the return of Jesus when He deals with the Armageddon scene.

The Rapture of the Church is a deliverance FROM the DAY OF WRATH. The Second Coming of Jesus is a deliverance FOR those who suffered under severe tribulation.

The Rapture is always IMMINENT (meaning NO prophecy must be fulfilled BEFORE it can occur). There are VERY SPECIFIC SIGNS AND PROPHECIES (which MUST HAPPEN) before the Second Coming!

The Rapture is ONLY for the SAVED. The tribulation and the Second Coming deals with the ENTIRE WORLD.

In the Rapture, Jesus calls His Church UP TO HEAVEN--He comes FOR His Church. In the Second Coming, Jesus returns to earth WITH His Church. Revelation 19:7-8. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The gathering of “saints” AFTER the tribulation is done by ANGELS. The gathering of the Church to Jesus in the Pre-Trib Rapture is done by THE LORD HIMSELF.

The Rapture relates to the Church. The Second Coming relates to Israel.

The Rapture occurs for Jesus’ heavenly people, the Church (Philippians 3:20-21, Hebrews 12:22-24). The Second Coming is for God’s earthly people, Israel.

At the Rapture, Jesus comes FOR His people, the Church (John 14:3, 2 Thessalonians 2:1) At the Second Coming, Jesus comes WITH His people, the Church. Jude 1:14-15. Revelation 19:14. Zechariah 14:5.

The Rapture OPENS the door for the “man of sin” to rise to power. 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8. The Second Coming DOOMS the “man of sin.” Revelation 19:20.

The Rapture is IMMINENT; it can occur at ANY moment. The Second Coming MUST be PRECEDED by very many DAYS and SIGNS and EVENTS.

No one knows the EXACT DAY of the Rapture (it is UNKNOWN)-- Matthew 24:38-39, Matthew 25:13,Luke 17:26-30, 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, Hebrews 10:24-25. We are exhorted to be WAITING and WATCHING. BUT anyone who enters the “tribulation” will be able to COUNT SPECIFIC NUMBERS of DAYS, and KNOW the DAY when Jesus will come to earth in His Second Coming. Daniel 9:27 (seven years, 84 months, 3520 days). Revelation 12:6 and Revelation 12:14. Revelation 13:5 (three and a half years, 42 months, 1260 days). There’s also added days in Daniel 12:11-12 (1290 and 1335 days), which probably relates to THE TIMING of a CELEBRATION of the Feast of Tabernacles, plus the JUDGMENT of the Sheep and Goat nations (this might not be fully understood until THE TIME arrives, as Daniel 12:9 indicates).

After the Rapture, the Church will proceed to the Judgment Seat (the Bema) of Christ to receive REWARDS. 2 Corinthians 5:10. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27. 1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. 1 Peter 5:4.Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11. At the Second Coming there will be a Judgment of the Sheep and Goats.Matthew 24:31-46.

BOTH the righteous and the wicked CANNOT be taken FIRST. In the Rapture, the RIGHTEOUS are TAKEN--the WICKED and UNREADY are LEFT BEHIND. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11. In the “tribulation” and at the Second Coming, the WICKED are TAKEN/DESTROYED in the JUDGMENT, and the RIGHTEOUS are LEFT BEHIND to enter the Millennial Kingdom. Matthew 13:30 and Matthew 13:49-50.

In the Rapture, Jesus RECEIVES us to Himself. It will NOT be US “receiving” Him when He returns in the Second Coming. John 14:2-3. If the Rapture occurred in Revelation 19, we’d go up TO MEET (or RECEIVE) Him and IMMEDIATELY RETURN to earth with Him.

If we rose to meet Him and immediately returned to earth with Him in Revelation 19, WHERE is the Judgment Seat of Christ (the Bema) and the wedding ceremony for the Bride? The NEXT THING that happens AFTER the Second Coming is the Judgment of the Sheep and the Goats.

The Judgment of Gentile nations follows the Second Coming (Matthew 25:31-46). This scripture shows that BOTH the SAVED and the LOST are in NATURAL bodies (which would be IMPOSSIBLE if there were a translation, or Rapture, at the Second Coming).

IF the TRANSLATION (Rapture) took place at the same time as the Second Coming, there would be NO NEED to separate the sheep from the goats. The act of TRANSLATION would provide that separation.

IF believers were TRANSLATED (Raptured) at the Second Coming, and unbelievers were DESTROYED by the final tribulation judgment, there would be NO ONE LEFT IN THEIR FLESH TO POPULATE THE WORLD in the Millennium.

Surviving tribulation saints are NOT translated (into immortal bodies) at the Second Coming of Christ, but carry on with ordinary activities, like farming, construction, and giving birth. Isaiah 65:20-25.

The Church INDEED preaches the GOSPEL of Christ’s FINISHED WORK in His death and resurrection (inviting people to ACCEPT Jesus into their hearts and lives--to become members of the LIVING and TRUE Church). However, the LAST age of the Church is pictured as one of weakness and complacency--falling away from true doctrine. The spirit of Laodecia. Revelation 3:14-22. 2 Thessalonians 2:3. (This disproves what the “Kingdom Now” and “Dominion” groups teach.)

Scripture declares that Elijah will come before the great and dreadful day of the Lord. Malachi 4:5-6. Elijah is ONE of the TWO special prophets who will minister to Israel in the near future.

Elijah will be joined by a SECOND special prophet, who will minister in Israel with the same miracles that Moses performed--under God’s guidance and power. These are the TWO WITNESSES seen in Zechariah 4:1-14 and in Revelation 11:3-13. They will declare God’s testimony during the dark days of the tribulation, and antichrist will be furious with them.

“And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come.” Matthew 24:14. Jesus spoke these words, but WERE they MEANT for the Church? NO! These words were spoken in THE MIDDLE of a teaching where Jesus described THE TRIBULATION and ISRAEL’S place in it.

Revelation 7:3-8 shows 144,000 sealed SERVANTS of God. These young men will preach the Gospel during the tribulation. They number 12,000 from specific TRIBES OF ISRAEL--and are ministers who will PROCLAIM THE GOSPEL during the awful time when judgments fall from God’s throne. Nothing can harm these servants, because God’s protection is upon them (they are sealed). The RESULT of their PREACHING is A GREAT MULTITUDE seen in Revelation 7:9-12 and Revelation 15:2-4, a group of martyred souls who sing THE SONG OF MOSES. An Israeli TESTIMONY is in sight here--NOT a Church testimony.

Further EVIDENCE of the Gospel reaching EVERY NATION in the world is shown in Revelation 14:6. AN ANGEL flies through the midst of heaven (the sky) to PREACH to all those who dwell on the earth. Again, this is NOT the Church.

The Everlasting Gospel and the Gospel of the Kingdom WILL be preached in the tribulation--which is God bringing HIS MERCY in the MIDST OF JUDGMENT (but the Church is NOT the ministers). Furthermore, the MESSAGE of the Gospel of the Kingdom is that Jesus will soon RETURN to earth (after the tribulation) to set up His Kingdom in Jerusalem for the Millennium--so the SERVANTS will say, “Prepare to meet your King.” Jesus’ return to THE EARTH will also answer the petition, “Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.”

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture view allows for a TRULY LITERAL INTERPRETATION of the Old and New Testament passages regarding the tribulation. The SYMBOLS (which are used) are DEFINED throughout the Bible and are APPLIED in a LITERAL WAY.

ONLY the Pre-Tribulation view clearly DISTINGUISHES between Israel and the Church (and HOW God deals with each)--making it NECESSARY for an interval of time between the Rapture and the Second Coming.

In the seven letters to the Churches in Revelation, Jesus says SEVEN TIMES “He that has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches.” When we get to the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:9, Jesus says “If any man have an ear, let him hear.” He LEFT OUT the words “what the Spirit says unto the Churches”--and did so BECAUSE there are NO CHURCHES on earth in the tribulation.

In the tribulation passage of Revelation 13:6, the antichrist is given a mouth to blaspheme God, His name, His tabernacle and THEM THAT DWELL IN HEAVEN. Who are those who DWELL in heaven? The Raptured Church.

The Holy Ones (“saints” in the Church) are ALREADY with Jesus in heaven and will return to earth with Him. Zechariah 14:5. Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

The Holy Ones who return with Jesus are NOT angels. The Holy Ones are arrayed in FINE WHITE LINEN which is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF THE SAINTS (which is the Church). Revelation 19:8. Revelation 3:5. Revelation 3:18.

Jesus opened His ministry in his first coming in Luke 4:18-19, quoting from the prophet Isaiah. He stopped reading AFTER saying THE ACCEPTABLE YEAR OF THE LORD in the MIDDLE of a sentence, and SHUT the book. Jesus’ ministry in His first coming opened a time of God’s GRACE through the Church.

In Isaiah 61:1-2, the prophecy of Isaiah FINISHES where Jesus LEFT OFF. After “the acceptable year of the Lord” (GRACE--THE AGE of the Church) is the DAY OF VENGEANCE OF OUR GOD. AFTER the Church age the tribulation will come--“the day of vengeance of our God.” We understand HOW the Church will be Raptured, then THAT DAY will come--and it’s Pre-Tribulation.

Revelation 4:1-11 opens with “AFTER THIS I looked, and behold a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a TRUMPET talking with me (the trumpet voice of Jesus--seeRevelation 1:10); which said, Come up hither, and I will show you things which must come HEREAFTER.” “After this” and “hereafter” are the same Greek word “meta tauta” which means AFTER THESE THINGS. After WHAT things? AFTER the THINGS of the SEVEN CHURCHES (the complete “Church Age”) in Revelation 2 and 3. Jesus will call “Come up hither” with His TRUMPET VOICE--the trump of God--and the Church, like John, will go through an OPEN DOOR in heaven in a PRE-TRIB Rapture! The structure is HIGHLY EVIDENT! Plus, the Holy Spirit REPEATED “hereafter” TWO TIMES to make this ABUNDANTLY CLEAR! Pre-Trib!

A door is SHUT BEHIND some believers in Isaiah 26:19-20. Isaiah 26:19 shows the resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 26:20 shows the TRANSLATION (Rapture) of those who are alive. “Come, My people, enter you into your chambers (mansions), and SHUT your DOOR about you; HIDE yourself as it were for A LITTLE MOMENT (7 years) until THE INDIGNATION be overpast.” The Church will enter heaven for 7 years, a little moment, until the INDIGNATION (God’s wrath upon the rebellious world) is done. The Rapture of the Church is Pre-Trib. How can people miss this?

All believers in the Church must APPEAR before the Judgment Seat of Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10) This event is NEVER mentioned in the events of the Second Coming, when Jesus sets His feet on the earth.


The 24 Elders in Revelation 4 and 5 are REPRESENTATIVE of a Raptured and glorified Church.

The 24 Elders CANNOT be angels. Angels DON’T WEAR crowns. Angels DON’T sit with God to rule and reign. We MUST define the 24 ELDERS by their SPECIFIC descriptions.

Elders--a term used for Church leadership.

Elders, the Greek “presbuteros.” Church terminology--the “Presbytery.”

The number 24. In 1 Chronicles 24:1-31, King David divided the Priesthood into 24 COURSES because they’d grown so large. When 24 LEADERS of the COURSES met BEFORE David’s throne, the WHOLE PRIESTHOOD was REPRESENTED. The 24 ELDERS represent the ENTIRE CHURCH before God’s throne. This is a picture of the Church as PRIESTS.

The number 24 (part 2). The Church is composed of BOTH Jews and Gentiles. 12 tribes of Israel. 12 apostles of the Church. A total of 24.

The Elders SIT. The work of the Church on earth in “the age of God’s Grace” is done.

The Elders sit on THRONES--the Church is seated on THRONES as KINGS.

The Elders wear “SPECIFIC” WHITE RAIMENT. The Church is promised white garments. Revelation 3:4-5. Revelation 3:18. That our garments (and ourselves) are to be washed and spotless are seen inEphesians 5:26-27, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 3:14. Jude 1:23 and Revelation 1:5.

The Elders wear CROWNS, which are STEPHANOS, given for OVERCOMING and GAINING A VICTORY (for finishing the race). The same kind of CROWNS are given to the Church. 1 Corinthians 9:25-27.1 Thessalonians 2:19-20. 2 Timothy 4:8. James 1:12. 1 Peter 5:4. Revelation 2:10 b. Revelation 3:11.

The Elders wear crowns OF GOLD. Gold shows KINGSHIP. This shows the Church as KINGS.

In Revelation 5:1-14, the Elders sing a NEW SONG of THEIR REDEMPTION (as seen in the King James Version--which is translated from a MORE RELIABLE old manuscript). The Elders sing of being SAVED by the blood of Jesus.

The Elders are saved “out of” (“called-out of”) every kindred, tongue, people and nation on earth. The Church is predominantly Gentile, “called-out of” the world.

In Ezekiel and Daniel we find SIMILAR DESCRIPTIONS of heaven as shown in the Revelation. EXCEPT FOR ONE THING. The Old Testament prophets did NOT see 24 Elders! Why? The Church is a MYSTERY which was NOT clearly revealed in the Old Testament.

The Church is called THE BRIDE of Christ. The comparison to marriage and Christ and His Church is made in Ephesians 5:22-33, and especially seen in verses Ephesians 5:29-32.

The WEDDING of Jesus and His Church follows the Jewish model. Remember, Jesus CAME to the Jews, God in the flesh of a man through a JEWISH LINEAGE.

In John 14:1-3 (where the Rapture of the Church is PROMISED), the structure of the Jewish wedding ceremony is HEAVILY IMPLIED. “In My Father’s house are many mansions.” “I GO and PREPARE a place for you.” “I will come again and receive you unto Myself…”

In the Jewish wedding, the groom INITIATES an AGREEMENT to marry a woman with the bride’s father. The groom PAYS A PRICE for his bride (the mohar). Jesus PAID THE PRICE for His Church with His own precious blood.

Once the agreement for the marriage is made and the price is paid, the marriage covenant is established. The young man and woman are considered as husband and wife, even though they have not yet lived together. From the payment of the mohar the bride is DECLARED to be CONSECRATED or SANCTIFIED--(“set apart” for her groom). As a SYMBOL of that CONSECRATION, the groom and bride drink a cup of wine over which the betrothal is announced. The Church is SET APART and SANCTIFIED unto Jesus. IN REMEMBRANCE OF THE PRICE that Jesus paid, the Church drinks the cup of communion wine.

After the marriage covenant is established, the groom leaves his bride at her home. He RETURNS to the HOME of his FATHER, where he will remain for about 12 months. After Jesus paid the price with His blood, HE RETURNED TO HIS FATHER’S HOUSE IN HEAVEN. The Church is LEFT AT HER HOME (a temporary place) upon the earth.

The bride has time to PREPARE her wedding trousseau, GETTING READY for married life. The Church remains true to Jesus, PREPARING TO MEET HIM SOMEDAY.

At the home of his father, the groom PREPARES A DWELLING PLACE for himself and his bride. Jesus returned to His Father’s house in heaven at the time of His ascension. He promised His followers that while He’s there, He PREPARES MANSIONS for us to dwell in.

At THE END of the period of separation, the bridegroom WILL RETURN--usually at night--to TAKE his bride TO COME LIVE WITH HIM. The groom, his best man, and other male escorts will leave the father’s house and do a torch-light procession to the home of the bride. The bride DOES NOT KNOW THE TIME of her bridegroom’s coming. As a result, the groom’s arrival is preceded by a shout. The TIME when Jesus will DESCEND into the air, to catch His Bride up to Himself is UNKNOWN. Therefore, the Church is exhorted to BE READY. Someday, the SHOUT which precedes Him will reach our ears and we’ll RISE UP TO MEET HIM.

After the groom receives his bride (together with her bridesmaids), the enlarged group RETURNS to the HOUSE of the GROOM’S FATHER. Jesus and His Church will be united in HEAVEN after the Rapture, at the HOUSE of GOD, THE FATHER.

The bride and groom, shortly after their arrival at the house of the groom’s father, are escorted by other members of the wedding party to THE BRIDAL CHAMBER. The bride wears a veil so her face is not seen. The marriage is consummated. A little later, it’s ANNOUNCED to the wedding guests, AT WHICH TIME the guests have a party for SEVEN DAYS. Once in heaven, Jesus and His Church will have our marriage sealed, and it’s ANNOUNCED in heaven. Then SEVEN DAYS of celebration (corresponding to the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation) ensues.

While the SEVEN days of the celebration takes place, the bride and groom remain HIDDEN in the bridal chamber, called the “huppah.” AFTER the SEVEN DAYS are finished, the groom comes OUT OF HIDING, bringing his wife with him, and her veil is removed so all can see her. At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE. When the SEVEN YEARS of the tribulation is finished, Christ and His Bride will LEAVE THEIR CHAMBERS. Jesus will RETURN to the earth in His Second Coming to set His feet on the Mt. of Olives, and His Bride (the Church) will ACCOMPANY Him! At that time, the marriage is ANNOUNCED TO THE WORLD AT LARGE, and people will see the face of the Bride, as she RULES and REIGNS with Jesus.

The MARRIAGE of Christ and the Church is seen in Romans 7:4. “…that you should be married to another--even to Him Who is raised from the dead.”

In 2 Corinthians 11:2, we, the Church, are “espoused to one husband,” that we may be presented as “a chaste virgin to Christ.”

In James 4:4, the Church is warned about the lusts of the flesh and love of the world which makes us “adulterers and adulteresses”--a people who turn against their wedding vows (by refusing to keep themselves separate from such things).

The Apostle Paul continually reminds the Church of THE HIGH COST of our PURCHASE PRICE, the BLOOD of Jesus. Paul continually teaches of our COVENANT WITH CHRIST, by which we, His Bride, are SET APART and SANCTIFIED.

There is clearly a “coming of Jesus” FOR His “Bride” BEFORE His Second Coming to earth. During the tribulation, His Bride is ALREADY in heaven, and WILL RETURN to earth WITH Him at the Second Coming.Revelation 19:7-10 and Revelation 19:14. Jude 1:14-15.

Jesus Christ told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Noah - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of those days by explicitly stating that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood came (Matthew 24:37-39). "so shall also the coming of the Son of man be." - Matthew 24:39.

To emphasize this point, Jesus Christ repeated this detailed account in Luke 17:26, recording the detail that Noah "entered into the ark" before the flood, and then "the flood came" (Luke 17:26-27). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." - Luke 17:30

Jesus Christ also told His disciples that His coming will be as the days of Lot - and then Jesus Christ, Himself, proceeded to describe the chronology of that event by explicitly stating that Lot "went out of Sodom" before God's judgment rained down (Luke 17:28-29). "Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed." -Luke 17:30

God reminds us of these individuals again, and tells us that it is God's nature to deliver believers before divine judgment: Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (II Pet. 2:5-9). Note that Peter (who penned the book of Peter) was present when Christ told it to His disciples the first time.

Right after that, He tells them about Noah and Lot, He further emphasizes this and describes 2-3 examples (Matthew 24:40-41, Luke 17:34-36) of how some people will be taken, and some will be left.

Right after that, He warns them "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come." If Christ returns at any other time than before the Tribulation, then you would know (to the day) when to expect Him. The fact that He is coming before is what catches people off guard.

Right after that, He tells them of the metaphor of the unannounced thief (Matthew 24:43-44), and told His disciples His coming would be in the same manner.

Right after that, He uses the illustration of the unfaithful servant who was caught off-guard by his master's unannounced return (Matthew 24:45-51).

Right after that, He tells them the parable of the ten virgins, and how some were caught unprepared for the bridegroom's unannounced return (Matthew 25:1-12).

Right after that, He warns them a second time, "Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh." - Matthew 25:13.

Right after that, He tells them of the parable of the talents, and a servant who was caught unprepared for his master's return (Matthew 25:14-30).

Here, in one sitting, Jesus Christ plainly explains the pattern of His return to a group of fishermen, and to make absolutely sure that they understand what He is saying, He lays out 2 biographical patterns, 2 pattern parables, and 2 explicit warnings about these pattern (with additional implied warnings woven throughout); the fact that He repeated something they needed to know six times in one sitting should tell us that He wants us to be absolutely clear about it!
Any teaching that ignores, contradicts, or reverses this clearly spelled-out pattern will end up ignoring and contradicting other Scripture as well, leading to confusion and deception. Do not hold to any prophetic pattern that goes against Christ's given pattern. The very first words out of Christ's mouth when He sat down to tell His disciples these things was this warning: "Take heed that no man deceive you." (Matthew 24:4).

The church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, I Thess.1:9-10; I Thess. 5:9). The church cannot enter "the great day of his wrath" (Rev. 6:17). Thirteen times in Revelation, the time of the Tribulation is described as a time of wrath (Rev. 6:16,Rev. 6:17, Rev. 11:18, Rev. 12:12, Rev. 14:8, Rev. 14:10, Rev. 14:19, Rev. 15:1, Rev. 15:7,Rev. 16:1, Rev. 16:19, Rev. 18:3,Rev. 19:15).

No NT tribulation passage mentions the church (Matthew 13:30, 39-42,48-50; 24:15-31; I Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; II Thess. 2:1-11, Rev. 4-18). Nor is the translation (rapture) of the church ever mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming after the tribulation.

Historical concept of imminency surrounding Christ's return. From a historical concept, the doctrine is not new, just more clearly classified and understood.

Pre-Trib allows literal interpretation of OT & NT. Post-trib must use some symbols or analogies.

Pre-Trib has a clear distinguishing between Israel and the church. Post-Trib has "replacement theology"

Pre-Trib gives distinction between Great Tribulation and tribulation in general. Acts 14:22 - the word tribulation is afflictions, not the time of God's wrath. Two different greek words.

Great Tribulation is for Israel's restoration, not to prepare the church for Glory (Deut. 4:29-30, Jeremiah 30:4-11 - "...even in the latter days..." "correct thee")

Pre-trib is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11. Pre-trib teaches that it starts in ch. 6.

Mid-trib teaches that the seventh trumpet of Rev. 11, the last of trumpet I Cor. 15:52, and the trumpet of Matt. 24:31 are the same event; but, they are three distinct events. They are not connected.

Pre-trib maintains the unity of the 70 weeks. Post & mid destroy the unity of the 70 weeks and confuse Israel's program with that of the church.

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (I Thess. 5:1-9).

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from "the hour of temptation."Rev. 3:10

After translation, believers go to the Father's House in heaven (John 14:3).

Pre-trib does not divide the Body of Christ at the Rapture on a work principle (partial rapture). It is the final climatic aspect of salvation by grace.

All, not part, of the church will be raptured. (I Cor. 15:51-52, I Thess. 4:17).

The remnant of the Tribulation are Israelites, not members of the church.

Pre-trib does not confuse terms like 'elect' and 'saints' (saved of all ages). "Church" & "those in Christ" are those saved before Rapture. The "elect" and "saints" after the Rapture are not part of the Bride of Christ, the church.

The church is to look for signs of His coming. Believers in Tribulation are to look for signs.

Holy Spirit, as a restrainer, is removed before the lawless one dominates the Tribulation. II Thess. 2:6-8. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint (Holy Spirit) is lifted. Believers (Spirit-in dwelt) are translated.

II Cor. 5:10 records all believers before the judgment seat of Christ in Heaven - an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the Second Coming of Christ to earth.

The 24 elders (Rev. 4:4-11) as reps of the church would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation. They cannot be in three spots at the same time if post-trib.

The wedding feast takes place before the Second Coming. Rev. 19:7-10.

Tribulations saints are not raptured at the second coming, but remain and have children (Isa. 65:20-25) and enter into the Millennium Kingdom.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the second coming (Matt. 25:31-46) is on natural bodies - which would have been impossible if they were translated at the Second Coming.

If the Rapture took place at the Second Coming, there would be no need to separate the sheep from the goats. (Matt. 25:31)

The coming of Christ is imminent. If it waited on the Tribulation, it would not be imminent.

The exhortation to be comforted (I Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pre-tribulational view (contradicted by most post-tribulation). There is no comfort in having to suffer through the Tribulation and its horrors.

Believers are to look for signs of His coming, not signs of the Tribulation. Titus 2:13.

The exhortation to purify yourself in light of His coming has most significance if His coming is imminent. I John 3:2-3.

Pretribulationism maintains the scriptural distinction between the Great Tribulation and tribulation in general that precedes it.

The Great Tribulation is properly interpreted by pretribulationists as a time of preparation for Israel’s restoration (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11). It is not the purpose of the Tribulation to prepare the church for glory.

None of the Old Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Deu. 4:29-30; Jer. 30: 4-11; Dan. 8:24-27; 12:1-2).

None of the New Testament passages on the Tribulation mention the church (Matt. 13:30; 39-42, 48-50; 24:15-31; 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:4-9; 2 Thess. 2:1-11; Rev. 4-18).

In contrast to midtribulationism, the pretribulational view provides an adequate explanation for the beginning of the Great Tribulation in Revelation 6. Midtribulationism is refuted by the plain teaching of Scripture that the Great Tribulation begins long before the seventh trumpet of Revelation 11.

The proper distinction is maintained between the prophetic trumpets of Scripture by pretribulationism. There is no proper ground for the pivotal argument of midtribulationism that the seventh trumpet of Revelation is the last trumpet in that there is no established connection between the seventh trumpet of Revelation
11, the last trumpet of 1 Corinthians 15:52, and the trumpet of Matthew 24:31. They are three distinct events.

The unity of Daniel’s seventieth week is maintained by pretribulationists. By contrast, postribulationism and midtribulationists destroy the unity of Daniel’s seventieth week and confuse Israel’s program with that of the church.

The translation of the church is never mentioned in any passage dealing with the second coming of Christ after the Tribulation.

The church is not appointed to wrath (Rom. 5:9: 1 Thess. 1:9-10; 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17).

The church will not be overtaken by the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:1-9, which includes the Tribulation.

The possibility of a believer escaping the Tribulation is mentioned in Luke 21:36.

The church of Philadelphia was promised deliverance from “the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth” (Rev. 3:10).

It is characteristic of divine dealing to deliver believers before a divine judgment is inflicted on the world as illustrated in the deliverance of Noah, Lot, Rahab, etc. (2 Peter 2:5-9).

At the time of the translation of the church, all believers go to the Father’s house in heaven (John 14:3) and do not immediately return to the earth after meeting Christ in the air as postribulationists teach.

Pretribulationism does not divide the body of Christ at the Rapture on a works principle. The teaching of a partial rapture is based on the false doctrine that the translation of the church is a reward for good works. It is rather a climactic aspect of salvation by grace.

The Scriptures clearly teach that all, not part, of the church will be raptured at the coming of Christ for the church (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:17).

As opposed to a view of a partial rapture, pretribulationism is founded on the definite teaching of Scripture that the death of Christ frees from all condemnation.

The godly remnant of the Tribulation are pictured as Israelites, not members of the church as maintained by the posttribulationists.

The pretribulational view, as opposed to posttribulationism, does not confuse general terms like elect and saints, which apply to the saved of all ages, with specific terms like church and those in Christ, which refer to believers of this age only.

The exhortation to be comforted by the coming of the Lord (1 Thess. 4:18) is very significant in the pretribulational view and is especially contradicted by most posttribulationists.

The exhortation to look for “the glorious appearing” of Christ to His own (Titus 2:13) loses its significance if the Tribulation must intervene first. Believers in that case should look for signs.

The exhortation to purify ourselves in view of the Lord’s return has most significance if His coming is imminent (1 John 3:2-3).

The church is uniformly exhorted to look for the coming of the Lord, while believers in the Tribulation are directed to look for signs.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer of evil cannot be taken out of the world unless the church, which the Spirit indwells, is translated at the same time. The Tribulation cannot begin until this restraint is lifted.

The Holy Spirit as the restrainer must be taken out of the world before “the lawless one,” who dominates the tribulation period, can be revealed (2 Thess. 2:6-8).

If the expression “except there come a falling away first” (KJV) is translated literally, “except the “departure” come first,” it would plainly show the necessity of the Rapture taking place before the beginning of the Tribulation.

According to 2 Corinthians 5:10, all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven, an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

If the twenty-four elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are representative of the church as many expositors believe, it would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the Tribulation.

The coming of Christ for His bride must take place before the Second Coming to the earth for the wedding feast (Rev. 19:7-10).

Tribulation saints are not translated at the second coming of Christ but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach.

The judgment of the Gentiles following the Second Coming (Matt. 25:31-46) indicates that both saved and unsaved are still in their natural bodies. This would be impossible if the translation had taken place at the Second Coming.

If the translation took place in connection with the Second Coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31).

The judgment of Israel (Ezek. 20:34-38), which occurs subsequent to the Second Coming, indicates the necessity of regathering Israel. The separation of the saved from the unsaved in this judgment obviously takes place sometime after the Second Coming and would be unnecessary if the saved had previously been separated from the unsaved by translation.

At the time of the Rapture the saints meet Christ in the air, while at the Second Coming Christ returns to the Mount of Olives to meet the saints on earth.

At the time of the Rapture the Mount of Olives is unchanged, while at the Second Coming it divides and a valley is formed to the east of Jerusalem (Zech. 14:4-5).

At the Rapture living saints are translated, while no saints are translated in connection with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

At the Rapture the saints go to heaven, while at the Second Coming to the earth the saints remain in the earth without translation.

At the time of the Rapture the world is unjudged and continues in sin, while at the Second Coming the world is judged and righteousness is established on the earth.

The translation of the church is pictured as a deliverance before the day of wrath, while the Second Coming is followed by the deliverance of those who have believed in Christ during the Tribulation.

The Rapture is described as imminent, while the Second Coming is preceded by definite signs.

The translation of living believers is a truth revealed only in the New Testament, while the Second Coming with its attendant events is a prominent doctrine of both Testaments.

The Rapture concerns only the saved, while the Second Coming deals with both saved and unsaved.

At the Rapture Satan is not bound, while at the Second Coming Satan is bound and cast into the abyss.

No unfulfilled prophecy stands between the church and the Rapture, while many signs must be fulfilled before the Second Coming.

No passage dealing with the resurrection of saints at the Second Coming ever mentions translation of living saints at the same time.

Instead of watching for Jesus to come in the air, instead of anticipating His arrival with joy, people watch for the APPEARANCE of the ANTICHRIST, for signs, for wars, and for the unfolding of many other prophecies FIRST. This DESTROYS imminence.

Scripture declare that no one KNOWS the day or the hour of Jesus’ appearance. This HAS TO MEAN the Rapture His Church! If it were meant for the time AFTER the tribulation, it does NOT make sense. The days and hours of the tribulation CAN BE COUNTED and KNOWN, according the prophecy of Daniel 9:27! EXACT years, months and days are GIVEN--and anyone WHO SEES the antichrist make the “peace covenant” with Israel can BEGIN counting--ARRIVING at the year, month, and day when Jesus’ feet will touch the earth. Should the Church be required to enter the tribulation, we’d calculate the day and the hour--which is the opposite NOT KNOWING! The scriptures MUST show TWO DIFFERENT events!

We see many instances where Jesus exhorted His people to watch, emphasizing NOT KNOWING the day or the hour. InMatthew 24:42-47, the Goodman of the house is to be WATCHING.

In Mark 13:28-37, the parable of the fig tree (the rebirth of Israel) is given, showing a general time and season. Jesus again exhorted His people to be ready and WATCHING, because they do NOT know the day or the hour when He will come.

In Luke 21:29-36, the parable of the fig tree is repeated, with a parallel warning, to be ready and WATCHING, because no one KNOWS the day or hour (when Jesus will appear to Rapture His true Church).

In Matt 24:48-51, the evil servant did NOT watch. He said, “the Lord DELAYS His coming.” Thinking there’s plenty of time BEFORE the Lord appears, the evil servant began beating his fellow servants, and fulfilling the LUSTS of his flesh, eating and drinking with the drunken. Jesus will come when that evil servant is NOT looking for him, NOT expecting His imminent arrival, in an hour when the servant is NOT AWARE--NOT WATCHING! The Lord will cut that servant asunder--in judgment. People who do NOT EXPECT the Lord’s IMMINENT coming GROW LAX in keeping guard over their lives, and are NOT ready--because they think there’s still plenty of time.

Following the early Church councils (where sound Christian doctrine was upheld), came a time of decline. Many doctrines that mainline denominations support are based on heresies proposed by Augustine--no millennium, the “spiritualization” and “allegorical” methods of interpretation. IMMINENCE was lost. And a Church which was NOT EXPECTING the Lord’s SOON RETURN became lax in sharing the Gospel, and drifted into many areas of error. (Another fact of history.)

Rapture is from the Latin “rapere” or “rapturo” which is INDEED found in the Latin Vulgate Version of the Bible. It’s from this Latin root that we get our English word “raptor.” A raptor (eagle, osprey, hawk, owl) swoops down from above to suddenly “snatch up” its dinner with force. In the rapture, Jesus will descend into the air and suddenly “snatch up” His Church to Himself with THE FORCE of His words, “Come up here” (which is seen in Revelation 4:1).

The Greek word for the Rapture is “harpazo” which is translated as “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. The literal definition of “harpazo” is to catch up and away, to pluck up, to take by force.

While “the word” Rapture is not found in our English translations of the Bible, it is INDEED there as “caught up” and in THE ACTION displayed IN that event!

The famous Rapture scriptures are these: the promise of it in John 14:1-3, the Old Testament description of it in Isaiah 26:19-20, Paul’s teachings upon it in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, and in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-8.

The ACTIONS shown in Revelation 4:1 is a TYPE of the Rapture, present in the DISPLAYED ACTION, and IN the SEQUENCE of events--(occurring AFTER the testimony of the SEVEN CHURCHES in Revelation 2:1-29 and Revelation 3:1-22). “After” is DECLARED TWICE in Revelation 4:1 --“After these things” and “hereafter.” AFTER what things? AFTER the ministry of the SEVEN CHURCHES. When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

Israel, and the Jewish Pharisees, at the time of Jesus did NOT recognize their promised Messiah when Jesus presented Himself to them. Why? They didn’t differentiate between their own prophecies which show the TWO COMINGS OF JESUS.

In Jesus’ FIRST COMING, He arrived on earth as the SUFFERING Messiah. Isaiah 53:2-10. Psalms 22:6-8 and Psalms 11:1-18.

In Jesus’ SECOND COMING, He’ll arrive on earth as a CONQUERING and REIGNING King. Psalms 2:6-12. Zechariah 12:9 andZechariah 9:16.

Jews, who studied the scripture (as if they had a microscope) missed this. When Jesus did not FIT THEIR IDEA of a KING, they rejected Him. How could that be? How could they have missed it? TWO REASONS: (a.) They had PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of what to expect. (b.) They “studied” scripture with NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (the corrupt mind of the flesh--which is AT ENMITY--and hostile to God. Romans 8:7-8and 2 Corinthians 2:9-14). The religious leaders continually tried to TRAP Jesus, and He rebuked them often, which further infuriated them. (Matthew 12:1-50 is the classic example of their blindness.) The “religious” people could NOT see Who Jesus really was. When Jesus said “I AM” (the Hebrew equivalent of God’s name-- Luke 22:70), and said that they would see Him sitting at the right hand of God, the Father (Matthew 26:64), they tore their clothes and accused Him of blasphemy! This led to His crucifixion, exactly as the scriptures prophesied. The “religious leaders” in Israel were “instrumental” in (helping) to fulfill their own prophecies.

Today, people also study the scriptures with their NATURAL UNDERSTANDING (without the Light of the Holy Spirit). They have PRECONCEIVED IDEAS of HOW the prophecies will be fulfilled. Many do NOT see the Second Coming of Jesus as happening in stages.

Stage ONE is The Rapture of the Church, when Jesus descends into the air to call His Church up to Himself. Stage TWO is the Second Coming, when the feet of Jesus actually touch the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:22-25 CLARIFIES the STAGES, by showing us STAGES of the First Resurrection.

Christ is the FIRSTFRUITS of those who RISE from the dead. This happened on the Feast of Firstfruits, three days AFTER Jesus died.

“Afterward, they that are Christ’s at His Coming.” This is the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church.

THEN COMES THE END--in which the Kingdom of God will be established at the start of the Millennium. “For He (Jesus) MUST REIGN--till He has put ALL ENEMIES under His feet”--(during the Millennium). According to the structure of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25, AFTER “the tribulation” is DONE, a THIRD STAGE of the First Resurrection will occur so that some saints can enter the Millennium in their glorified flesh. These are the tribulation saints-- Revelation 20:4. And the Old Testament saints-- Job 19:25-26.

The SEQUENCE of 1 Corinthians 15:22-25 clearly SHOW a Pre-Trib Rapture of the Church! When the “plain sense” makes “perfect sense” seek “no other sense.”

DETAILS of The Rapture and the Second Coming are VERY DIFFERENT and CANNOT be the same event! We must RIGHTLY DIVIDE the Word of God! 2 Timothy 2:15.

There’s a DISTINCTION between the Church and Israel. Acts 15:14-15. Romans 11:25-27.

To suggest that the Church will remain on earth for the tribulation CONFUSES the message of Daniel’s 70th week, and causes the Church TO RECEIVE what was APPOINTED to Israel and their Holy City.

The UNITY of Daniel’s 70th week is MAINTAINED by the Pre-Trib view. By contrast, the Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath views DESTROY that unity and CONFUSES God’s PROGRAM for Israel with that of the Church.

The Post-Trib view denies the clear teaching of the 70th week by subjecting the literal prophecy to one form or another of allegory. It gives Israel’s destiny to the Church!

In the 70th week (during the “tribulation”) as prophesied in Zechariah 13:8-9--TWO-THIRDS of Israel will NOT SURVIVE, but will PERISH. A THIRD part of them will come through THE FIRE of that time, REFINED like silver and gold, and will SAY that the Lord is their God. It’s NOT the Church who will be refined by that terrible judgment!

The PROPHECY for ISRAEL clearly says, “Seventy weeks are DETERMINED upon your people (Daniel’s people--Israel) and upon your Holy City (Jerusalem).” Daniel 9:24. There is NO MENTION of the Church.

The Church Age fits into a PARENTHESIS that happens between Daniel’s 69th and 70th week.

God STOPPED Israel’s CLOCK in order for the Church Age to happen. God won’t RESTART Israel’s CLOCK until the after Church Age is finished.

The dispensation of Israel (under the law) was INTERRUPTED by the dispensation of God’s Grace through the Church. When the dispensation of GRACE in the Church is complete, then God will RESUME and FINISH the INTERRUPTED dispensation of His law in Israel. Clearly shown by the GAP between the 69th and 70th weeks of Daniel 9:24-27.

Yes, there are DISPENSATIONS in God’s dealing with mankind during the millennia. (I mention this because many people OBJECT to the idea of God having separate programs, especially for the Church and Israel.) A “dispensation” is defined as God’s MANNER OF WORKING as He performs His ADMINISTRATION, overseeing various groups of people throughout the scripture. He has dealt with VARIOUS groups in DIFFERING means of ADMINISTRATION. We can SEE it by paying CAREFUL attention to what’s recorded in the whole Bible. Dispensations are CLEARLY mentioned in 1 Corinthians 9:17, Ephesians 1:10,Ephesians 3:2 and Colossians 1:25-26.

The tribulation (all 7 years of it) is distinctly JEWISH in nature.

In the Church, there is NEITHER Jew or Gentile, but ALL are ONE in Christ’s BODY. Ephesians 2:11-22.Galatians 3:28.

Yet in the tribulation, there IS a distinction. Revelation 7:1-17 --144,000 sealed servants from the twelve tribes of Israel.Jeremiah 30:7 --which speaks of the tribulation as “Jacob’s trouble.”

During the chapters of Revelation which gives DETAILS about the tribulation, the Church is not mentioned--not even ONCE. From Revelation 6 through Revelation 18.

The Church is the KEY player (sharing the Gospel) from Acts to Jude.

The Church is KEY player in Revelation 1 to 5, AND is seen again in Revelation 19 to 22.

There’s an ABSENCE of TEACHING about the TRIBULATION in KEY “Church-related” Bible passages. That’s why there is NO INSTRUCTION given to the Church on how to LIVE THROUGH the tribulation. BECAUSE the Church will NOT need to know HOW TO SURVIVE the tribulation. The Church will NOT be in it!

When ISRAEL was CENTRAL in the Old Testament, the Church was a MYSTERY.

When Israel was the CENTRAL FOCUS in the Gospels, the Church is virtually unmentioned.

When the CHURCH is the FOCUS in Acts through Jude, ISRAEL is NOT mentioned (EXCEPT when the Apostles told THE CHURCH to NOT to deem themselves better--ISRAEL will be grafted back in. PLUS there is neither Jew nor Greek (Gentile) in the CHURCH, but ALL are the BODY OF CHRIST).

The Church is CENTRAL in Revelation 1 to 3 (mentioned 19 times), and is also seen in Revelation 4 and 5 in the description of the 24 elders. Israel is NOT mentioned in those first chapters.

When Israel is in FOCUS IN Revelation 6 to 18, the Church is NOT mentioned.

Only when God’s PURPOSE for BOTH the Church and Israel is finished--then God SPEAKS of them TOGETHER. Revelation 19 to 22.

There are NO passages in either the Old or New Testament which SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will go through the tribulation. (Try to find where it SPECIFICALLY SAYS that the Church will be IN the tribulation--it can’t be found!)

The tribulation is called THE TIME of “Jacob’s Trouble” Jeremiah 30:7. The tribulation is NEVER called the time of “The Church’s Trouble.”

The Church has NO PART in the first 69 weeks of Daniel’s prophecy, and it will have NO PART in the final 70th week either!

The GODLY REMNANT of the tribulation have descriptions and attributes upon them--THE SAME as seen upon Old Testament ISRAEL. The Church is NOT present during that time--there are NO “Church-related descriptions” upon tribulation saints.

THE Pre-Trib view (UNLIKE Mid-Trib, Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath), does NOT CONFUSE terms like “elect” and “saints” OF THE TRIBULATION with the Church. Terms like CHURCH and IN CHRIST apply ONLY to those who are IN the BODY OF CHRIST in THIS AGE, and these terms are NEVER found in passages which relate to the tribulation.

Israel is NOT cut-off from the COVENANTS that God gave them. But blindness (in part) will be their destiny UNTIL the Church is complete. Acts 15:14-16. Romans 11:1 and Romans 11:25-27.

Many prophecies have the characteristic of showing a LOCAL fulfillment (AT or NEAR the time when it was given), then they JUMP AHEAD to the TIME OF THE END--when they are COMPLETELY fulfilled.

These are known as PARTIAL FULFILLMENT'S or DUAL FULFILLMENT'S--which are NOTHING UNUSUAL in the scripture.

EXAMPLE ONE: In Daniel 11:1-45, the prophecy discusses IN DETAIL the Greek Empire, Alexander the Great, the breaking of the Greek Empire into four parts, wars between kings of the south (Egypt, the Ptolemies) and kings of the north (Syria, the Seleucids), and the arrival of Antiochus IV Epiphanes (a powerful TYPE of the Antichrist). In the middle of showing THE WORK of Antiochus Epiphanes, the prophecy SKIPS to THE END, to focus upon the “ultimate antichrist” (from verses Daniel 11:36-45).

EXAMPLE TWO: When Jesus BEGAN His ministry, He read from the prophecy of Isaiah, quoting UP TO the phrase “the acceptable year of the Lord.” And he closed the book. Jesus stopped reading in the middle of a sentence, because THE REMAINDER of that passage will be fulfilled at the time of THE END, in the tribulation--beginning with “and the day of vengeance of our God.” Luke 4:18-19. Isaiah 61:1-3.

EXAMPLE THREE: In Daniel 9:24, the prophet starts showing 70 weeks which are determined upon Israel. It’s fulfilled right up to A SPECIFIC DAY--when Jesus rode the donkey into Jerusalem, allowing the people to declare Him as King: “Blessed be the King Who comes in the name of the Lord.” (Luke 19:38, Palm Sunday). Then Messiah was CUT OFF (crucified), just like Daniel prophesied. Jesus KNEW what was DECREED to occur, because He lamented in Luke 19:42 --“If you (Israel) had known, even you, at least in THIS YOUR DAY, the things which belong unto your peace! But NOW they are HID from your eyes.” (The fulfillment of Daniel 9:26 is AN EXACT amount of 173,880 days--that scholars in Israel should have KNOWN--from THE TIME of the DECREE to rebuild Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity until PALM SUNDAY! “THIS YOUR DAY” (for Israel) was Nisan 10--THE DAY when the nation CHOSE their LAMBS for Passover. The EXACT DAY in history was April 6, 32 A.D.--when Jesus, the TRUE LAMB OF GOD, entered Jerusalem on the donkey.) Then He was CUT OFF. The REMAINDER of Daniel’s prophecy, in verse Daniel 9:27, JUMPS to THE END (after the parenthetical AGE of THE CHURCH is inserted). After the Church is COMPLETE, and TAKEN to HEAVEN in the Pre-Trib Rapture, the LAST SEVEN YEARS of Israel’s prophecy will be fulfilled during the tribulation.

In Matthew 24:36-42 and Luke 17:26-27, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Noah. The KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Noah,” people on earth will be doing BUSINESS AS USUAL--eating and drinking, marrying, giving in marriage--right up to THE DAY that Noah entered the ARK--his shelter from God’s judgment. Likewise, the Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture--then THE WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The world of Noah’s time was exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. The world, at the time of the Pre-Trib Rapture, will be exceedingly wicked and violent, ripe for judgment. 2 Timothy 1:1-3. 2 Timothy 3:1-9.

Noah’s ark was LIFTED ABOVE the JUDGMENT, and ALL within the ARK were KEPT SAFE and were NOT judged. So likewise, the Church will be LIFTED ABOVE the judgment, and take to heaven, in our ARK, Jesus, and will NOT suffer WRATH.

The ARK had only ONE DOOR. Jesus is the ONLY DOOR through which people may come to God and BE SAVED from the HIS WRATH. John 14:6.

Noah and the ark CAN be pictured as Israel kept safe THROUGH the JUDGMENT, but that interpretation does NOT take into account that TWO-THIRDS of Israel will PERISH in the tribulation’s judgment. Zechariah 13:9. NOBODY perished on Noah’s ark! NOBODY in the true Church will perish in the tribulation.

In Luke 17:28-30, we see the EVENTS (plural) of the Church’s Rapture and the Second Coming of Jesus likened to the days of Lot. Again, the KEY thing to see, is that, like in the “days of Lot,” people in Sodom were conducting BUSINESS AS USUAL. They ate and drank, bought and sold, planted and built--right up to THE DAY that the FIRE hit Sodom. God--(in answer to Abraham, who asked in Genesis 18:1-33 ---“Will You destroy the righteous with the wicked?”)--made sure Lot, a righteous man, was removed from Sodom BEFORE the judgment. God’s PLAIN ANSWER--I will NOT cast the righteous into a time of judgment! Likewise, when the true Church is TAKEN to SAFETY in the Pre-Trib Rapture, THE WICKED WORLD will suffer God’s judgment.

The city of Lot was exceedingly wicked. Righteous Lot was VEXED by what occurred around him, which is described in Genesis 19:1-38 as blatant, “in your face,” homosexuality. 2 Peter 2:6-9 says that the Lord KNOWS HOW to DELIVER the RIGHTEOUS, and RESERVE THE UNRIGHTEOUS for His day of judgment. The world, prior to the Pre-Trib Rapture, will also show the increase of homosexuality, and like Sodom, will be sorely judged. The true Church, like righteous Lot, will be REMOVED BEFORE the judgment hits (Pre-Trib).

In Genesis 19:16, we see how Lot lingered. The angels, who were sent to REMOVE Lot from Sodom, LAID HOLD upon Lot’s hand, and also LAID HOLD of Lot’s wife and daughters. The angels BROUGHT them FORTH and SET them outside the city BEFORE the fire could fall. In the ACTION of LAID HOLD, we see that the angels SEIZED Lot and his family BY FORCE to REMOVED them--the EXACT DEFINITION for “Rapture.” Likewise, BEFORE the tribulation, the true Church will be “seized by force and removed”--THEN the tribulation will come.

In Genesis 19:22, we see the angel tell Lot to “Haste you, ESCAPE”--(to the small town of Zoar). The angel added (and this is important)--“I CANNOT do anything”--(in judgment) UNTIL you are OUT OF THIS PLACE! Likewise, when God’s WRATH of the tribulation approaches, the judgment CANNOT come UNTIL the true Church is TAKEN out of the earth in the Pre-Trib Rapture.

In 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11, we see that the tribulation (the day of the Lord) will come like a thief in the night, when people are saying, “Peace and safety,” and, to the world’s surprise (and horror) “sudden destruction” will befall them. But the true Church will NOT be caught in it.

The world will think “peace and safety” is coming. They think by man’s wisdom, society will grow better and better. Do we hear this today? You bet!

The tribulation judgment will HIT, bringing “sudden destruction.” The unrighteous world will NOT ESCAPE. The true Church, however, will NOT be overtaken in that time. We true Christians (BORN-AGAIN, REGENERATED, INDWELLED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, MADE NEW CREATURES IN CHRIST), will obtain SALVATION (the deliverance) from that time of WRATH, and we (whether having died in Jesus--or are alive at the time) will LIVE TOGETHER with Jesus (in heaven in the MANSIONS He’s prepared for us). The pattern of being TAKEN to SAFETY is the SAME throughout scripture--BEFORE God’s judgments come! The Church is promised a Pre-Trib Rapture. Do you believe it?

The Apostle Paul’s exhortation for the Church to be COMFORTED by “the coming of the Lord” (in 1 Thessalonians 4:18) can ONLY BE TRUE in the CONTEXT of a Pre-Trib Rapture. In the Post-Tribulation view, the Lord’s coming is a FEARSOME thing to be dreaded, because of EXPECTING years of horrendous judgments. There’s NO COMFORT in teaching that the Church will go through the tribulation.

We, the true Church are told to LOOK FOR the “glorious appearing of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”Titus 2:13. IF other prophetic events MUST happen BEFORE Jesus can appear, that verse is foolish and doesn’t make sense.

We are to PURIFY OURSELVES in view of Jesus’ soon appearing (1 John 3:2-3). IF His coming is NOT IMMINENT, then that passage is meaningless, too. (People can think, “If He’s NOT going to appear soon, then why bother with being pure?--let’s do what we want for a while.”) Our BLESSED HOPE in the PRE-TRIB RAPTURE, and it’s IMMINENCE, keeps us on our toes, spiritually.

The Church is told to LOOK ONLY for “the coming of Christ” in the Rapture (often called “His appearing”): IF we must LOOK for other prophecies FIRST, that DOESN’T make sense either. Titus 2:13

The Church is told TO ONLY LOOK for the coming of Jesus in the Rapture: It is ISRAEL and the tribulation saints who must LOOK for SIGNS of the Second Coming, and who must ENDURE until the end of the tribulation.

People will be CONFUSED about Jesus’ coming FOR His Church, if they do NOT understand the TRUE NATURE of the Church as a UNIQUE BODY of God’s people, A BRIDE for Jesus.

In the Revelation, WRATH is seen 10 times. Revelation 6:16, Revelation 6:17, Revelation 11:18,Revelation 14:10, Revelation 14:19, Revelation 15:1, Revelation 15:7, Revelation 16:1, Revelation 16:19, andRevelation 19:15. The Church is “not appointed to wrath.” Romans 5:1 and Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, and Revelation 3:10. The Church, therefore, CANNOT enter into the “great day of God’s wrath.”

In Revelation 3:10, a FAITHFUL and TRUE Church is promised to be KEPT OUT OF the TIME of TEMPTATION which shall COME UPON the WHOLE WORLD to TRY them who DWELL UPON THE EARTH. This TEMPTATION is the EXPERIENCE of EVIL, ADVERSITY, and EXTREME TROUBLE. Jesus TOLD us to PRAY, “and lead us NOT into TEMPTATION, but DELIVER us from EVIL.” While this is correctly interpreted to mean protection from “ordinary everyday troubles” we face on this earth, it can also have an extended meaning. “TEMPTATION” is the VERY SAME GREEK WORD as seen in Revelation 3:10 --defined as that TIME of THE WORST EVIL which has ever happened on the earth (Matthew 24:21-22). Why would Jesus ask us to PRAY to be DELIVERED from that EVIL, if there were NO ESCAPE possible? Compare to Luke 21:36. There is INDEED a DELIVERANCE available FROM the tribulation (the MOST AWFUL TEMPTATION EVER)--and it’s called the Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church!

In 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 we see that God will REPAY TRIBULATION upon the ones who have TROUBLED the Church. WHILE that RECOMPENSE occurs, the Church will BE AT REST. The Church will receive a Pre-Tribulation rapture!

The Church will NOT be “overtaken by the Day of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 5:1-9. The “day of the Lord” is another phrase which defines the tribulation. The Church will NOT be caught in it.

The believer in Jesus, who has prayed to accept Him, WILL be found WORTHY to ESCAPE the tribulation. Luke 21:36.

In Zephaniah 2:1-3, we see an exhortation from God to His people, which parallels THE ATTITUDE we’re to have BEFORE the tribulation arrives. BEFORE the decree comes forth (the “peace covenant” with the antichrist which STARTS the “tribulation”), BEFORE the FIERCE ANGER of the Lord comes--DO THIS! Seek the Lord in righteousness and meekness. WHY? So that we will BE HID in THE DAY of the Lord’s anger--another reference to a Pre-Trib Rapture.

It’s God’s character to DELIVER His own (righteous ones) from His judgments. Enoch, Noah, Lot, and Rahab are a few. The judgment could NOT happen to Sodom until Lot was TAKEN OUT OF THERE. So also, the tribulation CANNOT happen UNTIL the Church is TAKEN OUT OF THE WORLD in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Compare Luke 17:28-30 to Genesis 19:15-22 --paying special attention the verses 16 and 22.

It’s clear from scripture that there’s an INTERVAL OF TIME between the translation of the Church and the Second Coming of Jesus. John 14:3. Isaiah 26:20.

ONLY the Pre-Trib Rapture does NOT DIVIDE the Church (Christ’s Body) on a WORKS BASED PRINCIPLE, as does the Partial Rapture. The Pre-Trib Rapture is the GRAND FINALE to our great SALVATION--by GRACE ALONE!

The scriptures are FIRM that the Church is UNDIVIDED--we are ALL members of ONE BODY in Jesus. (It’s in this PRESENT world that the Church is indeed divided by the CONTINUING OLD FLESH NATURE of believers--which results in dissensions and splits. When the Church is GLORIFIED at the Rapture, there will be no more fleshly divisions.)

The Holy Spirit is RESTRAINER of evil in this world. He CANNOT be taken out as prophesied UNLESS THE CHURCH (which is INDWELLED by Him), is taken out, too. The RESTRAINER is the Spirit-filled Church.2 Thessalonians 2:5-8.

The Holy Spirit’s RESTRAINING work MUST be removed BEFORE the “lawless one” is revealed. (The tribulation BEGINS with the SIGNING OF A COVENANT with ISRAEL--which STARTS the 7 years of tribulation. That act REVEALS the antichrist. So therefore, the Church must be Raptured BEFORE the tribulation begins.) The true Church will NOT see the antichrist revealed.

While the tribulation occurs on earth, the antichrist will overcome (and PREVAIL AGAINST) the tribulation saints. Revelation 13:7. But for the Church, the gates of hell will NEVER prevail against us, which PROVES that “the saints” of the tribulation CANNOT be the Church. The Church OVERCOMES by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 16:18. Romans 12:21. 1 John 2:13-14. 1 John 5:4-5. Revelation 2:7, Revelation 2:11,Revelation 2:17, Revelation 2:26, Revelation 3:5, Revelation 3:12, and Revelation 3:21. That’s LOTS of OVERCOMING for the Church! This PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.

In Daniel 7:21 and Daniel 7:25, the little horn (antichrist) made war with the saints and PREVAILED AGAINST them, plus the antichrist will speak great words against the most high and shall WEAR OUT the saints. Again, for the Church, the gates of hell shall NOT prevail against us (or overcome us). Again, the Church CANNOT be the saints in the tribulation who are PREVAILED AGAINST, and OVERCOME! Again, this PROVES the Rapture MUST be Pre-Trib.










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Psalm3704

And He shall give you the desires of your heart.
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The souls of the believers goes to Heaven after their physical body is dead.
These are the souls of the believers which are in Heaven with Jesus who awaits the resurrection ...the bodies in the graves decays.
knowing where the souls of the believers goes after their death is the key to understand the timing of the rapture.
It explain the meaning of
1 Thessalonians 4:14
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God BRING with him.

Riberra, if you believe 1 Thessalonians 4:14 describes souls going to heaven, than you're entitled to believe whatever what you want to believe even if there's no such thing as a Santa Claus.







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