Why did Jesus Leave?

[amariselle]

But I asked you why we should. If you want me to take your Bible passages seriously, then you'd make some effort to answer that. Otherwise it was pointless to present those passages to begin with.

I presented those Bible passages as a response to the idea that a Christian will just choose to believe it's Jesus returning with no evidence that it is. My point is, that isn't how it's going to be at all.

How do you know that?

Because I know what the Bible is.

 

[amariselle]

Authority is somewhat misunderstood concept when it comes to it's original meaning, and what it tends to mean today.

Authority generally stems from authorship and origin. Thus, J.K. Rowling would have authority over Harry Potter narrative, because she authored it, thus she would be an expert in regards to Harry Potter world. There may be people who study the narrative and become expert in terms of their knowledge of that narrative, thus they derive some form of authority through expertise.

A book itself can't be an authority. It simply not what authority is. Authority is related to understanding of contents.

Today we generally use it as "power to give orders" type of context, but such power generally have to be justified and agreed upon. For example, just because Saddam was an authority in Iraq wouldn't mean that you should agree that he has authority over your decision-making.

It's the same issue when communicating Biblical authority for someone who doesn't excepts it as such, because it hasn't been justified as such.

For example, what use would claim to Biblical authority have if you haven't cleared the basic step #1 - Jesus and God exist in reality and not merely in the Biblical narrative?

I didn't say that non-Christians consider the Bible authoritative, of course they don't. I said that CHRISTIANS consider the Bible authoritative.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I presented those Bible passages as a response to the idea that a Christian will just choose to believe it's Jesus returning with no evidence that it is. My point is, that isn't how it's going to be at all.

In what way are those passages evidence?

Because I know what the Bible is.

How?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Hmmmm....... no ? ....... yes ? .........
If JESUS came back to start a thread,
like when HE came to earth a while back,
would His thread be "complaints"
about all the people who reject Him ? (almost everybody on earth) ... ... ...
OH,
wait,
is JESUS gone ?
or,
is JESUS ALIVE !

If alive, I think he'd have a more cogent argument to make than what you've presented here.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I didn't say that non-Christians consider the Bible authoritative, of course they don't. I said that CHRISTIANS consider the Bible authoritative.

Yeah, we know that. But so what? What good does that do here?

 

[devolved]

Hmmmm....... no ? ....... yes ? .........
If JESUS came back to start a thread,
like when HE came to earth a while back,
would His thread be "complaints"
about all the people who reject Him ? (almost everybody on earth) ... ... ...
OH,
wait,
is JESUS gone ?
or,
is JESUS ALIVE !

If he indeed be back... he could probably first head to the Academy of Sciences to reveal a couple of the secrets of the Universe that bothered scientists for centuries.

Then he could head back to the Mayo Clinic and show them how to cure cancer. I think these two things along would generate enough buzz that the plausibility that God exists would at least be in the play for many people.

It would still be inconclusive, but it would be something worth putting one's faith in, in the very least. There's a guy who in a couple days solved some of humanity's biggest problems that we have today.

 

[devolved]

I didn't say that non-Christians consider the Bible authoritative, of course they don't. I said that CHRISTIANS consider the Bible authoritative.

Yes, but what I'm pointing to is the pragmatic aspect of quoting what you consider to be authoritative without first justifying it to actually be so for person that you are communicating to.

If Muslim would reference Quoran, I doubt you'd find it impressive. I understand that you are trying to communicate your beliefs, but my question is not about WHAT , but about WHY. Why do you believe, and why do you think other people should do so?

Hence, you are answering the wrong questions here, as majority Christians tend to do when they communicate with non-believers. Non-believers are not interested in WHAT you think they should believe. They are interested in WHY.

The problem is that a vast majority of the WHY attempts are actually re-packaged WHAT... as you keep demonstrating by referencing the Biblical authority.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I think I was specifically referring to things I have actually seen here.

I don't doubt that; my point was that if atheists were using mockery & ridicule, it's unlikely their motivation was to dissuade you from the God delusion.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Then he could head back to the Mayo Clinic and show them how to cure cancer

So you think he never showed his people already ?
Are you an ostrich ? (proverbial head in the sand?)
Do you NOT have internet access with a computer ?
Have you NEVER heard of Torah ?
Or more recently Max Gerson, Md. ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I said that CHRISTIANS consider the Bible authoritative.

Yeah, we know that. But so what? What good does that do here?

Often none.
(see all the threads? see all the topics?(everywhere) see how few are truthful ?)

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

When you are saying that you can't reason your way into faith... you are essentially saying that faith is unreasonable.

Reminds me of the saying that you can't reason someone out of what they didn't reason themselves into.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

When you are saying that you can't reason your way into faith... you are essentially saying that
faith is unreasonable.

totally

 

[AGTG]

He left so that people would not focus on His personal body, but that they would rely upon His Holy Spirit. Imagine what it would be like if both were active on the earth at once? What would people do? They would all want to go hang with Him in physical form, and never-mind just the Holy Spirit, Jesus is right there!

So... Knowing people, it makes perfect sense.

 

[Deidre32]

But if our positions are incompatible, then how can neither of us be wrong? I'm not sure that follows.

You know for sure that God doesn't exist? You just believe a god doesn't exist. I believe a god exists. But, neither of us can prove our positions through using an objective method, so...who is right? Who is wrong?

 

[amariselle]

Yeah, we know that. But so what? What good does that do here?

I'm sure it doesn't do much, if any, good for some people. However, this IS a Christian forum, so why shouldn't such views be expected?

 

[Deidre32]

From God's perspective, he is wrong and we as Christians should acknowledge that. I don't think it's wise to ever say an atheist is right in their worldview that God does not exist because atheism does not even claim that God does not exist, so they can't actually be right.

I understand that you didn't actually say he's right, but you did say he's not wrong for thinking God does not exist, when in fact he is wrong for thinking that.

All the best! God bless you!

But, he doesn't think he's wrong. I believe he's wrong, but I can't offer him 'evidence' that will satisfy him in order to promote belief. Many people don't come to Christ through someone merely urging them 'believe in Christ.' It honestly has to be something that comes in time, and from the Holy Spirit. Truly being born again isn't something that anyone can force upon another...God doesn't force Himself on us, for example.

God bless you too!

 

[amariselle]

Yes, but what I'm pointing to is the pragmatic aspect of quoting what you consider to be authoritative without first justifying it to actually be so for person that you are communicating to.

If Muslim would reference Quoran, I doubt you'd find it impressive. I understand that you are trying to communicate your beliefs, but my question is not about WHAT , but about WHY. Why do you believe, and why do you think other people should do so?

Hence, you are answering the wrong questions here, as majority Christians tend to do when they communicate with non-believers. Non-believers are not interested in WHAT you think they should believe. They are interested in WHY.

The problem is that a vast majority of the WHY attempts are actually re-packaged WHAT... as you keep demonstrating by referencing the Biblical authority.

And yet, if I was on a Muslim forum, I would fully expect to see the Quran referenced. And when the Quran WAS referenced I would not question why, nor would I accuse the Muslims who referenced it of "preaching" or "proselytizing ." I would instead consider that they were giving Muslim responses to Muslim questions, on a Muslim forum.

Really, it's not rocket science.

 

[amariselle]

I don't doubt that; my point was that if atheists were using mockery & ridicule, it's unlikely their motivation was to dissuade you from the God delusion.

"The God Delusion". You prove my point, thank you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

God exists. I know for sure. The SAME Spirit that RAISED JESUS from the dead, (and JESUS lives never to die again)
dwells in me.

It is NOT possible to have the living Spirit of JESUS dwelling with you and not know it.

In fact, in the NT, when the believers were likewise indwelt by Jesus Spirit,
OTHERS knew it ! (UNbelievers SAW and KNEW THIS)....

That is how DIFFERENT a real believer with JESUS inside is,
to those unbelievers watching. ---
they (the unbelievers) CAN SEE THE DIFFERENCE.

 

[devolved]

He left so that people would not focus on His personal body, but that they would rely upon His Holy Spirit. Imagine what it would be like if both were active on the earth at once? What would people do? They would all want to go hang with Him in physical form, and never-mind just the Holy Spirit, Jesus is right there!

So... Knowing people, it makes perfect sense.

Actually ... it doesn't .

First of all, having both wouldn't damage anything. It would enhance it, mainly because right this moment there's no way of telling between work of the "Holy Spirit" and placebo effect of people doing something and ascribing it to something else.

Jesus in the very least be evidence that the whole structure and claims of Christianity are historically and ontologicaly valid. Again, it shouldn't even be an issue of constant presence.

Jesus could leave a couple messages to some prophets. They would relay it to media and say something along the lines of "Build a large impenetrable bunker and fill it with cameras, have independent skeptics examine it and then seal it. Have each of the skeptics write a question on a piece of paper that only they will know. They will place the questions in the envelope and send multiple copies to various libraries around the world. I will then appear inside the bunker and will answer each question the best way I can and then will leave... but that will be a documented demonstration of my existence, and a little help for you in terms of how you can better treat cancer, reduce child mortality, know more about your reality in terms of physics, and etc".

The point being, I'm not a God and I can come up with at least a 100 ways in which God could provide a more plausible demonstration than a 2000 year old book about awesome things, and then some circular interpretation that whatever good believers do is a result of a Holy Spirit, and whatever bad they do is because they ignore the Holy Spirit.