The fine tuning of the universe.

[Oncedeceived]

I think models that include other universes can account for the fine tuning in our own yes. But what I am getting st with the life as we know it objecton is a bit different. When you say our universe exibits fine tuning what do you mean, fine tuned for what? I presume you mean for intelligent life. The issue is that we don't know what conditions are required for life generally. We do know what life as we know it requires but not life generally. It is possible that any universe that exists would also allow for life, just that the life would be different from the life as we know it.

But we know many requirements that are absolutely necessary and that is what has been shown to be a very rare occurrence.

 

[Athée]

But we know many requirements that are absolutely necessary and that is what has been shown to be a very rare occurrence.

We know many absolute necessary requirements for life as we know it. We don't know anything about what other forms life could take and what requirements might or might not be.

 

[Oncedeceived]

We know many absolute necessary requirements for life as we know it. We don't know anything about what other forms life could take and what requirements might or might not be.

We know that life of any kind to reproduce takes order. That is the basic requirement for anything that would be called life.

 

[Athée]

We know that life of any kind to reproduce takes order. That is the basic requirement for anything that would be called life.

That is a basic requirement for life as we know it. How could we possibly determine that it is a requirement for any and all kinds of life?

 

[freezerman2000]

Anything as chaotic as the universe is not fine tuned...

 

[Oncedeceived]

That is a basic requirement for life as we know it. How could we possibly determine that it is a requirement for any and all kinds of life?

Well lets focus on this one aspect then because it is a good question.

Do you agree that if life unlike ours exists that it probably would be composed of macromolecules?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Anything as chaotic as the universe is not fine tuned...

That is simply false.

 

[[serious]]

Back to that paper,

4.6 Cosmological constant

Ok, I've got to be honest, everytime this value comes up in a "fine tuning" argument, the author loses a good deal of credibility in my mind. Not so much because of relevance, but because they can't ever seem to restrain themselves from talking about quantum field theory predictions. It's an interesting subject, but not one that's relevant. First off, quantum field theory doesn't predict the measurable vacuum energy, but rather zero point energy. Second, we again only know it's order of magnitude experimentally. Lastly, if it were arbitrarily set to maximize the potential for life, it should be very slightly negative instead of very slightly positive.

 

[freezerman2000]

That is simply false.

Chaos and fine tuned are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum.

 

[freezerman2000]

Stars dying,novas,supernovas,black holes,quasars...comets and asteroids smashing into other objects...is that orderly?

 

[Athée]

Well lets focus on this one aspect then because it is a good question.

Do you agree that if life unlike ours exists that it probably would be composed of macromolecules?

No I don't agree. We simply don't know. One possibly helpful way of thinking about this from within your worldview is to ask yourself how it applies to God. Is God alive? Does he reproduce? Is he made of macromolecules? Etc

 

[[serious]]

We should start here maybe then:

We touched on this earlier and you seemed to agree that we by tweaking the constants CAN actually determine if life of any kind could exist. For instance I gave you the nuclear force example. Here are a few more from Luke Barnes which if you will remember is the physicist I provided for your review.

“There are changes we can make to the laws of nature that result in a universe so simple, so barren, that by any definition of life, this isn’t it. The cosmological constant is a good example: we have a 120 orders of magnitude to play with, but after even 10 or 20, the universe contains nothing but an expanding hydrogen soup. Such a universe is very easy to predict – the universe never leaves the “linear regime”. We can solve the equations of cosmological structure formation. Compared to calculating the behaviour of our universe, this one is a doddle.

“If the strong force were weaker, the periodic table would consist of only hydrogen. We do not need a rigorous definition of life to reasonably conclude that a universe with one chemical reaction (2H → H2) would not be able to create and sustain the complexity necessary for life.”)

Life requires order and a multitude of hypothetical arrangements do not allow for life of any kind due to a complete lack of order. That is why most scientists agree that other life forms would be exceedingly rare if any existed at all.

Edited to add: Not only is it fine tuned for intelligent life but also fine tuned to exist at all.

after 10 or 20 orders of magnitude? Pretty much anything 20 orders of magnitude larger is going to kill us. Like, anything. A grain of sand, scaled up 20 orders of magnitude, means you just got crushed by a thousand pyramids of giza.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

Sorry?

Ahh nvm, missed the part where you said secular scientists believe.....

 

[Justatruthseeker]

We know many absolute necessary requirements for life as we know it. We don't know anything about what other forms life could take and what requirements might or might not be.

But speculation about what other forms of life might or might not require is irrelevant, since this is all we know. Again, we can close our eyes and imagine a universe with infinite possibilities, but until we open our eyes we will never see the light. To dream about other possibilities is fine - until we start confusing those dreams with reality as we know it to be.

Since no other life has ever been discovered or even shown to be possible, we can say anything we like about them - and never have to worry about being shown to be wrong. It's simply an un-falsifiable theory and not worth the time to consider it, as un-falsifiable theories are not scientific theories.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

No I don't agree. We simply don't know. One possibly helpful way of thinking about this from within your worldview is to ask yourself how it applies to God. Is God alive? Does he reproduce? Is he made of macromolecules? Etc

What makes life life? The rocks are made of the same exact protons, neutrons and electrons that make up you. Are you saying the protons, electrons and neutrons that make up the molecules of your body are different than that what makes up rock? Or is it something else that makes the same subatomic particles behave differently?

 

[Athée]

But speculation about what other forms of life might or might not require is irrelevant, since this is all we know. Again, we can close our eyes and imagine a universe with infinite possibilities, but until we open our eyes we will never see the light. To dream about other possibilities is fine - until we start confusing those dreams with reality as we know it to be.

Since no other life has ever been discovered or even shown to be possible, we can say anything we like about them - and never have to worry about being shown to be wrong. It's simply an un-falsifiable theory and not worth the time to consider it, as un-falsifiable theories are not scientific theories.

Sure. I only raise it in response to the fine tuning argument. I am happy to sray with the evidence as we know it. In 1 of 1 universes intelligent life is possible. Probability of 1.

 

[Athée]

What makes life life? The rocks are made of the same exact protons, neutrons and electrons that make up you. Are you saying the protons, electrons and neutrons that make up the molecules of your body are different than that what makes up rock? Or is it something else that makes the same subatomic particles behave differently?

Great question. I would say life as we know it has the usual host of attributes. Made of matter, reproduces, changes over time etc. But I don't see why life should be limited to this, except for in a semantic sense. What do you think life is?

 

[Oncedeceived]

after 10 or 20 orders of magnitude? Pretty much anything 20 orders of magnitude larger is going to kill us. Like, anything. A grain of sand, scaled up 20 orders of magnitude, means you just got crushed by a thousand pyramids of giza.

How would you explain then the 120 order of magnitude of the cosmological constant?

 

[Oncedeceived]

No I don't agree. We simply don't know. One possibly helpful way of thinking about this from within your worldview is to ask yourself how it applies to God. Is God alive? Does he reproduce? Is he made of macromolecules? Etc

I don't follow this, you are not unaware of what God is as far as Christian theology, so how does this make sense to you?

 

[Oncedeceived]

Stars dying,novas,supernovas,black holes,quasars...comets and asteroids smashing into other objects...is that orderly?

Yet, here we sit on this tiny blue dot enjoying our special place, the only place where we could even observe stars dying, novas, supernovas, black holes, quasars and those pesky comets and asteroids whizzing around us.