Exodus 20:9-11 (Creation)

[Colter]

Nah , you just put yourself in charge of grading God's paper according to your own belief .. How do you think God grades your paper at the judgement seat ? You gonna say "but Lord it was all lies in the Bible"

I'm going to say I defended your character.

 

[Colter]

"Book of Urantia" -- believer not JW in this one case.

My argument is that if someone believes Urantia instead of the Bible they cannot argue that Christians don't know what the Bible says , or don't know which parts of the Bible to reject - just because we believe the Bible and not Urantia.

Rather they can only argue "please believe Urantia instead of the Bible and here is why" -- that is the only approach that would make sense.

Just as atheists will argue "please believe evolution instead of the Bible" - and then they give all sorts of reasons as to why they think that makes sense.

Still if you follow Hoghead1's posts and Colte's posts on this thread they explain very clearly various points where they reject the Bible and choose some other belief system "instead".

None of this converts an Old Earth in a YEC.

 

[Colter]

John 14:23-29New International Version (NIV)

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

 

[Colter]

Meanwhile, the old earth plate tectonics keep on moving.

 

[4x4toy]

I'm going to say I defended your character.

I probably won't say nothing for the first 10,000 years according to a dream I once had , just flat on my face in worship basking in the radiant presence and Glory of God ..

 

[Anguspure]

The observer is Moses in Genesis 1-2:3 with the reference point of earth.
If you are asking how it is that Moses could see the 7 day creation week of Gen 1:2-2:4 the answer is vision - Moses was a prophet - and turns out God is able to show prophets past, present and future events as eye-witness to it.

This is not how Moses wrote the Torah, however. The Rabbinical understanding of how the Torah came about was that it dictated letter by letter by the Creator. Moses was not recording something that he had viewed, far less recounting some sort of tradition that was held by the people. Rather it was the Creator that was telling the story, letter by letter, and it is the Creators perspective.
Your insistence that the 6 yohm of the creation week is iron clad earth time is not one shared by the the original holders of the text in question either. The term yohm may be used in the same way as the word for day in any other language, and may be used to define an indeterminate period of time that might be 1 solar day or might be a much longer period of time according to the wishes of the communicator, in this case the Creator.
We should not try and box God into doctrines that come about from a lack of understanding.

 

[BobRyan]

Its probably already been said but; who's 6 days is being described here?

For an observer outside the universe, observing the beginning of the universe, it might indeed take 6 days for the universe to be ordered from the disorder.

The observer is Moses in Genesis 1-2:3 with the reference point of earth.

But in Ex 20:11 legal code it is God - and they both claim to see the same thing.

"six days YOU shall labor..for in SIX days God made..." the time frame is that of earth - mankind "you shall labor".

For an observer from within the same creation, however, it might appear that it took 14 billion years or so for the same series of events to take place.

You have to read 4 billion years "into the text" - it is not there at all. And the text of both Genesis 1-2:3 and Ex 20:11 was written for "readers within the same creation" -

And evening and morning are specific to the rotation of this one planet - the Universe does not have night/day cycles.


Injecting a counter-idea into the text to fit an a-priori bias brought to the text - is eisegesis - not exegesis.

Really? My understanding of the Bible is that it is our God who is telling the story, and that it is God who observed the 6 days of creation.

There is no question that God is speaking to humans and humans are on planet earth - and that God was doing something at this location - the location of our solar system when creating the earth. So the time frame communicated is the same thus in Ex 20:11 "six days you shall labor...for in six days the Lord made" --

This is irrefutable - iron clad - locked in - written in stone equivalence for the unit of time.

Where was Moses when God created the heavens and the earth?

If you are asking how it is that Moses could see the 7 day creation week of Gen 1:2-2:4 the answer is vision - Moses was a prophet - and turns out God is able to show prophets past, present and future events as eye-witness to it.

This is not how Moses wrote the Torah, however.

It is how he saw creation week.

The Rabbinical understanding of how the Torah came about was that it dictated letter by letter by the Creator.

Only the Ten Commandments are /written/by God letter by letter.

Only Joseph Smith claimed that his inspired text was given to him "letter by letter" - Moses never makes such a claim.

in fact Moses is "shown" things according to the Bible - including the temple in heaven - which is used as a pattern for making the miniature model of it on earth.

Hebrews 8
4 For if He were on earth, He would not be a priest, since there are priests who offer the gifts according to the law; 5 who serve the copy and shadow of the heavenly things, as Moses was divinely instructed when he was about to make the tabernacle. For He said, “See that you make all things according to the pattern shown you on the mountain.”

Not "The letter shown you" but the "pattern" of the sanctuary "shown you".

And so also when Moses describes creation week and Adam's history it is not "letter by letter" Joseph-Smith-style.

According to Jewish tradition - Christ is not the Messiah.

And in Mark 7:6-13 Christ flatly condemns Jewish tradition.

 

[BobRyan]

None of this converts an Old Earth in a YEC.

That is not a quote from Ex 20:9-11 or Ex 20:8-11. This thread is about the legal code that we find there.

In that legal code - God Himself is speaking - and He says "six days YOU shall labor... for in SIX Days the LORD made the heavens and the earth the seas and all that is in them."

 

[BobRyan]

Meanwhile, the old earth plate tectonics keep on moving.

At variable rates depending on the timeframe - when they are observed.

 

[4x4toy]

Meanwhile, the old earth plate tectonics keep on moving.

So are there any mountain ranges getting lower in elevation .. If there were no oceans would all surface not be connected .. Would tides and trillions x trillions of tons water movement by the minute help move land in opposite directions from the mid ocean expansion joints creating higher mountain ranges .. Does not all rivers have corresponding banks , oceans .. Folded and waving solid rock prove plenty of rapid formation . I agree with continental drift but not billions of years of it just circulation .. Your illustration has nothing to do with billions of years .. Finding complete whale skeletons intact in the Andes mountains and other fossils on the top of other mountain ranges can only prove young Earth and rapid mud and sediment formation .. Sounds more like Gods plan providing pressure relief from below the Earths surface or we'd be in a world with so many Volcanos life would not be possible ..

 

[BobRyan]

John 14:23-29New International Version (NIV)

23 Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25 “All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

The Holy Spirit authored the Bible. 2 Peter 1:19-21.

 

[BobRyan]

KWCrazy said: ↑
I just looked up Urantia online. Were we so lacking in false, man-made religions that we had to create another one? Is the banner of False Prophet so appealing that someone had to make up yet another means of deceiving would-be believers with the doctrine of foolish men?

The Lord has a place for false prophets. Rev 20:10 (KJV) "And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Fortunately I'm not a false prophet and your hope for others to go into a lake of fire is just the hatred of your own heart.

Your argument appears to be that KWC wrote Revelation 20 out of hatred.

Is that your position?

 

[BobRyan]

So are there any mountain ranges getting lower in elevation .. If there were no oceans would all surface not be connected .. .

Erosion along would have leveled all mountains in a 4 billion year timeline.

The incredible shrinking mountains
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1444322/The-incredible-shrinking-mountains.html

 

[4x4toy]

Erosion along would have leveled all mountains in a 4 billion year timeline.

The incredible shrinking mountains
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1444322/The-incredible-shrinking-mountains.html

Exactly and not to mention recently found water in the Earths crust that is estimated three times the amount in the Oceans put together ..

 

[Steve Petersen]

I probably won't say nothing for the first 10,000 years according to a dream I once had , just flat on my face in worship basking in the radiant presence and Glory of God ..

Whoopdy freaking doo!

 

[4x4toy]

And who knows subduction zones doesn't provide mass cooling to regulate inner temps ..

 

[4x4toy]

Whoopdy freaking doo!

I dreamed I ate a giant marsh mellow last night and when I woke up I couldn't find my pillow .. Better ? lol

 

[Colter]

So are there any mountain ranges getting lower in elevation .. If there were no oceans would all surface not be connected .. Would tides and trillions x trillions of tons water movement by the minute help move land in opposite directions from the mid ocean expansion joints creating higher mountain ranges .. Does not all rivers have corresponding banks , oceans .. Folded and waving solid rock prove plenty of rapid formation . I agree with continental drift but not billions of years of it just circulation .. Your illustration has nothing to do with billions of years .. Finding complete whale skeletons intact in the Andes mountains and other fossils on the top of other mountain ranges can only prove young Earth and rapid mud and sediment formation .. Sounds more like Gods plan providing pressure relief from below the Earths surface or we'd be in a world with so many Volcanos life would not be possible ..

My illustration doesn't say billions, it says the continent of India crept for 71,000,000 years to crash into the Eurasian Plate forming the Himalayan mountains which are still growing.

Fossils in the mountains come from the age when the same land was under ancient oceans.

 

[Colter]

Erosion along would have leveled all mountains in a 4 billion year timeline.

The incredible shrinking mountains
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1444322/The-incredible-shrinking-mountains.html

Many mountains have grown and eroded away into history. Currently there are growing and eroding mountains. The Rockies for instance are still growing. I live in the Appalachian mountains which formed 480 million years ago. They were once as high as the Alps and Rockies but have eroded down to mostly rolling hills, the Blue Ridge and Peidmont mountains.

 

[4x4toy]

My illustration doesn't say billions, it says the continent of India crept for 71,000,000 years to crash into the Eurasian Plate forming the Himalayan mountains which are still growing.

Fossils in the mountains come from the age when the same land was under ancient oceans.

I ain't buying .. sorry ...