Are women inferior to men?

[SkyWriting]

I think you know which passage I was referring to.

1. #2 in the OP is the exact reason the Apostle Paul gives in 1 Tim. 2 for his policies.
   
   
   
2. It was a local problem.
   Was 1 Tim. 2 a local problem?

Timothy is described as the administrator of the Ephesian community.
Ancient Ephesus lies in a valley between two hills.

 

[SkyWriting]

I think you know which passage I was referring to.

Who are you suggesting we not pray for?
Queen Elizabeth
Queen Margrethe
Dilma Vana Linhares Rousseff
Geun-hye?

 

[Imagican]

Have authority over women, just as you would have all women have authority over you.
This is the summation of the law and the prophets.

Nice try.

The 'do unto others.....................' has nothing to do with the 'order' God placed into His creation. Adam was formed first. Eve was formed second 'from' Adam 'for' Adam. Just like Adam was formed 'for Christ'.

So it is presupposed that one is following in the proper 'order' and 'then': do unto others...................

Paul makes this perfectly clear.

The letter written to Timothy was not about something 'local'. it was 'general' instruction or information.

It is clear that you would rather discuss such issues from a 'personal perspective' than one derived from the Bible. Every scripture that has been quoted you either ignore or try your best to explain it 'away' as if Paul's words are not as clear as they could be.

If that's the case, we have little to discuss. I am not there to discuss personal opinions. Not if they are based upon anything but the Bible.

The instructions we have been given through the Bible are clear. If you choose to ignore them or resist them or deny them, that is certainly your prerogative.

But it's utter foolishness for me to argue with someone that obviously doesn't 'like' what the Bible offers and chooses to follow a different path.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[SkyWriting]

The letter written to Timothy was not about something 'local'.

Timothy was in charge of a local group.
Ancient Ephesus lies in a valley between two hills.

 

[SkyWriting]

The 'do unto others.....................' has nothing to do with the 'order' God placed into His creation.

Paul was a prophet.
His comments were to a local group having problems.
Ancient Ephesus lies in a valley between two hills.
You can't blame high priests for holding on to the power of the church,
and keeping the money away from females, right?

The Vow of Poverty | A Nun's Life Ministry
How much is a bishop worth? | National Catholic Reporter





This is the summation of the law and the prophets:
"Have authority over women, just as you would have all women have authority over you."

New International Version
So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

New Living Translation
"Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets.

English Standard Version
“So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

Berean Study Bible
In everything, then, do to others as you would have them do to you. For this is the essence of the Law and the prophets.

Berean Literal Bible
All things therefore, as many as you might desire that men should do to you, so also you do to them, for this is the law and the prophets.

New American Standard Bible
"In everything, therefore, treat people the same way you want them to treat you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.

 

[Achilles6129]

Sorry, but Paul's remarks in 1 Tim. 2 aren't regarding any sort of "local" problem. They're clearly universal:

"11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." 1 Tim. 2:11-14 (NRSV)

He's not talking about "the women at Ephesus." He's talking about the female gender.

 

[SkyWriting]

Sorry, but Paul's remarks in 1 Tim. 2 aren't regarding any sort of "local" problem. They're clearly universal:

"11 Let a woman learn in silence with full submission. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor." 1 Tim. 2:11-14 (NRSV)

He's not talking about "the women at Ephesus." He's talking about the female gender.

All gender differences have been voided.
Gender differences in scripture are a local congregation problem.
Hats, scarves, talking in church, donuts,.....all local problems.

For one, we don't all have clear gender differences when born.
Second, Jesus saved us all equally.
Third, the scriptures have eliminated all gender differentiation:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything,
do to others what you would have them do to
you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged;
and by your standard of measure, it will be measured
to you.

We can make no laws that even acknowledge gender differences.
We have begun the process of doing just that.

• Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits
• employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or
• national origin;

 

[SkyWriting]

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve

This would have come up befor this writing, if valid for writing laws.

 

[SkyWriting]

Paul's remarks in 1 Tim. 2 aren't regarding any sort of "local" problem. They're clearly universal

Ancient Ephesus lies in a valley between two hills. It's a specific place.

 

[Brokenhill]

All gender differences have been voided.
Gender differences in scripture are a local congregation problem.
Hats, scarves, talking in church, donuts,.....all local problems.

For one, we don't all have clear gender differences when born.
Second, Jesus saved us all equally.
Third, the scriptures have eliminated all gender differentiation:

Matthew 7:12 So in everything,
do to others what you would have them do to
you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged;
and by your standard of measure, it will be measured
to you.

We can make no laws that even acknowledge gender differences.
We have begun the process of doing just that.

• Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (Title VII), which prohibits
• employment discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, or
• national origin;

There is no scripture where all gender differences have been voided.

Yes, men and woman are equally saved through Christ, and after we all die and are in heaven we are just Spirits towards God, hence why there is no marriage in heaven.
However, while we are still living in the flesh there are certainly gender differences or else we would have the plethora of scripture regarding not only headship, but also correct/incorrect sexual behaviors, pros/cons of marriage, qualifications of elders/deacons, etc.

 

[SkyWriting]

However, while we are still living in the flesh there are certainly gender differences or else we would have the plethora of scripture regarding not only headship, but also correct/incorrect sexual behaviors, pros/cons of marriage, qualifications of elders/deacons, etc.

Yes. Birth and DNA identification are on a sliding scale from male to female.
We all remember growing up amazed at variety of attributes of boy....and girls.
I'm sure you've read that God is not all that concerned that the scriptures were even written? Why?

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

 

[SkyWriting]

There is no scripture where all gender differences have been voided.

In all things, treat others, just as you would have others treat you.
That scraps all gender-based-rule differences.

 

[Strong in Him]

The letter written to Timothy was not about something 'local'. it was 'general' instruction or information.

If women in that particular church were talking while someone was speaking and trying to teach them; if they were interrupting to ask questions or trying to undermine his authority, then yes, it could easily have been a local problem. It does seem that the same sort of thing was going on in Corinth too, 1 Corinthians 14:35, but not in Rome or Philippi, for example, where Paul mentions and commends the hard working female disciples, and his co workers. Paul doesn't mention this in his letters to the Thessalonians, Galatians or Colossians either.

 

[SkyWriting]

If women in that particular church were talking while someone was speaking and trying to teach them; if they were interrupting to ask questions or trying to undermine his authority, then yes, it could easily have been a local problem. It does seem that the same sort of thing was going on in Corinth too, 1 Corinthians 14:35, but not in Rome or Philippi, for example, where Paul mentions and commends the hard working female disciples, and his co workers. Paul doesn't mention this in his letters to the Thessalonians, Galatians or Colossians either.

In my home church all people take turns to comment as called on by the group leader.
Old, young, mentally challenged, and anyone who indicates they'd like to speak.
Men speak out of turn as well and corrected.

 

[Imagican]

Ok,

Let us assume that it was a 'local' problem. That doesn't alter the instructions as being 'general instructions' to 'every' Church.

Regardless of whether it was local or not, the instructions exist within the text that 'we' accept as worthy of doctrine. Paul made no indication that any one part of the Body should abide by different rules than the 'whole'.

And I find it amusing that you mention the 'place' of women in Paul's ministry: disciples and co workers, as if this somehow shows 'equality'. Clearly pointing out that there is no mention of 'Church leaders', "Bishops", Deacons, apostles, etc.........

No one has once stated that women have 'no place' in the Church. But the Bible clearly points out that their role is limited. Men are to be the 'Church leaders' according to the Bible. And Paul offered not a single sentence that would alter the 'place' of the woman in the marriage.

I can't help but wonder how difficult it is to 'clearly see' that the 'place' of women has been one that has existed, (as far as we know of concerning history), pretty much the same since the 'beginning of humanity'. Until recently. And it was accepted and worked since the beginning.

In every form of life on this planet, male has it's role and female has it's role. That humans have chosen to blur this fact doesn't alter that the fact exists. Just because things can be done differently doesn't mean that they should. When each 'part' of a system performs it's purpose the system 'works'. But if one part doesn't perform properly then all kinds of problems ensue.

Can a woman be a 'Church leader'? So far as 'this world' is concerned, women can 'do' whatever they 'choose' to do. Men as well.

But if their choice conflicts with the 'natural order' that was developed in 'creation', it makes it very difficult to reach their potential. Can, in fact, go backwards instead of forwards.

And if we allow our secular 'life' to conflict with out Spiritual life, we also fall into contention. We limit ourselves or even degrade ourselves from our potential.

You are certainly 'free' to choose whatever 'path' you want to follow. I haven't tried to encourage you to follow 'my path'. I have simply pointed out 'the' path we are offered in the Bible. Like it or not, it is as clearly offered as it could be. But that certainly doesn't mean one's desires can't influence their interpretation of what is clearly offered.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Brokenhill]

In all things, treat others, just as you would have others treat you.
That scraps all gender-based-rule differences.

Matthew 7:12 does not disqualify all the other verses that would object to your opinion. That is called cherry-picking, which scripture condemns in Revelation and in Deuteronomy:
Deut. 4:“1 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you"

No personal offense, but you seem to have a misguided approach to scripture, which in turn has lead you to great misunderstandings.

God wants us to take all of His word into consideration, understanding it as a complete woven fabric...where His words do not contradict but work together unto perfection.
2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (And if you look at the the root Greek word for "all" its used for both "whole" as well as to specifiy multiple indivuduals, i.e., each individual scripture is important...)

Sure, not everything in scripture is quite black & white or ultra linear...there are certainly some exceptions with application in terms of specific situations (such as eating meat only vs. vegetables only in Romans), but yet there are no contradictions.
By using Matthew 7:12 with the idea that it excludes so many other verses from being applicable would be making contradictions among passages, and is a shallow understanding of scripture.

Yes. Birth and DNA identification are on a sliding scale from male to female.
We all remember growing up amazed at variety of attributes of boy....and girls.
I'm sure you've read that God is not all that concerned that the scriptures were even written? Why?

19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

-Not to sound rude, but some would argue that human DNA is very close to other primape DNA like chimpanzees, so do I treat monkeys like fellow humans? No, because that would go against scripture in Genesis how man has rule over the animal kingdom. Or, should we be preaching to apes? No, that's obviously silly as they have no soul in need of saving.

-What scripture are you referring to where God is not concerned with scripture being written? Ezekiel was told to write; John on the Island of Patmos was told to write (Revelation).

-I don't understand how that verse applies to any of this discussion. Paul was using that verse as why the idea of a creator is the obvious thing to have faith in as we live and breathe, not man-made gods or random mutations.

 

[Brokenhill]

The recent activity of this thread has made me wonder if there is a thread somewhere about hermeneutics and if not, that we should probably create one. I certainly could learn more about the proper way to approach God's word, and the sooner "Christians" everywhere get on the same way on how to approach scripture, there will be less contention and misunderstanding within the body. We would all find ourselves in agreement more often than not.

 

[Hoghead1]

Matthew 7:12 does not disqualify all the other verses that would object to your opinion. That is called cherry-picking, which scripture condemns in Revelation and in Deuteronomy:
Deut. 4:“1 Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and the judgments which I am teaching you to perform, so that you may live and go in and take possession of the land which the Lord, the God of your fathers, is giving you. 2 You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you"

No personal offense, but you seem to have a misguided approach to scripture, which in turn has lead you to great misunderstandings.

God wants us to take all of His word into consideration, understanding it as a complete woven fabric...where His words do not contradict but work together unto perfection.
2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work." (And if you look at the the root Greek word for "all" its used for both "whole" as well as to specifiy multiple indivuduals, i.e., each individual scripture is important...)

Sure, not everything in scripture is quite black & white or ultra linear...there are certainly some exceptions with application in terms of specific situations (such as eating meat only vs. vegetables only in Romans), but yet there are no contradictions.
By using Matthew 7:12 with the idea that it excludes so many other verses from being applicable would be making contradictions among passages, and is a shallow understanding of scripture.


-Not to sound rude, but some would argue that human DNA is very close to other primape DNA like chimpanzees, so do I treat monkeys like fellow humans? No, because that would go against scripture in Genesis how man has rule over the animal kingdom. Or, should we be preaching to apes? No, that's obviously silly as they have no soul in need of saving.

-What scripture are you referring to where God is not concerned with scripture being written? Ezekiel was told to write; John on the Island of Patmos was told to write (Revelation).

-I don't understand how that verse applies to any of this discussion. Paul was using that verse as why the idea of a creator is the obvious thing to have faith in as we live and breathe, not man-made gods or random mutations.

Yes, but how much "cherry picking" do you do? Do you keep all the OT laws? Do you avoid eating pork? Are you OK with Exod. 21, with selling your daughter into slavery and beating slaves, just as long as you don't kill then?

 

[SkyWriting]

Matthew 7:12 does not disqualify all the other verses that would object to your opinion. That is called cherry-picking, which scripture condemns in Revelation and in Deuteronomy:

A well supported complaint, but my argument is more researched than you give credit.
I'm afraid that those who give sermons are guilty of ignoring scripture in favor of MAN-Sermons.

38As he taught, Jesus said, “Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted with respect in the marketplaces,39and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.

(they emphasize men before women)

Matthew 7:12
Matthew 22:40 - "All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Luke 6:31 - Do to others as you would have them do to you.
Romans 13:8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another,
for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law.
Romans 13:10 - Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Galatians 5:14 - For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."
James 2:8 - If you really keep the royal law found in Scripture, "Love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing right.
Luke 6:31 - And as you would that men should do to you, do you also to them likewise.
Mark 12:31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’g There is no commandment greater than these.”
Matthew 19:19 honor your father and mother,' and and 'love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Luke 10:27 He answered, "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your
strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself

These passages eliminate all gender based rules.
What man wants women making rules for all men?
What woman wants men making rules for all women?
What Christian wants Muslims, making rules for all Christians?

We all want rules protecting the weak from the strong.
And protecting the strong from their weaknesses.

 

[SkyWriting]

What scripture are you referring to where God is not concerned with scripture being written?

I said "Scripture says scripture is not that important" unless you are misquoting some other statement.
It's hard to tell. And that comment is the result of this:

19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.