how does devout christians justify voting Democrat?

[greenguzzi]

It's not. It is not in any way part of the mission of the Body of Christ to use the king's sword to force pagans to act like Christians.

I agree, but that's not why I vote, and that's not why I do any political things I do. One of the main reasons I bother with politics is to attempt to stop that very thing.

 

[greenguzzi]

... I reckon a lot of Christians waste their vote voting for the candidate/party who they think will enforce "Christian" behaviour on the unbelievers, when they should be voting for the candidate/party who is for justice and stewardship.

 

[Caretaker]

Nope. But there is a distinction between using the human weapons of political power to force unbelievers by the king's sword or the sheriff's pistol to act like Christians and using the gospel to bring people into belief and thus into the Body of Christ. The first is explicitly denied to the Body of Christ, the second is explicitly its mission.



And where do any of those imply that Christians are to use the human weapons of political power to force unbelievers by the king's sword or the sheriff's pistol to act like Christians instead of using the gospel to bring people into belief and thus into the Body of Christ.

To be sure, a person who is operating in the interest of the Kingdom of Heaven--encouraging defectors into the Lord's Kingdom--is obviously going to be opposed by the human nations from which those people are defecting.

I learned speaking to Christians in Japan that when it became known that one of them had become a Christian, he ceases to be "Japanese" in the eyes of both the people and the government. As a result, opportunities for good jobs, good education, et cetera, become as difficult as for Koreans and other non-Japanese nationalities living in Japan. I'm told that a Christian in Japan (who had once been Japanese, but has become a Christian) might just "disappear" if arrested by the police on some trivial matter.

This is the human government opposition to people who join the Body of Christ.

?? Where are you coming up with this " ...force unbelievers by the king's sword or the sheriff's pistol to act like Christians ..." stuff???

That's certainly NOT what I posted anywhere, nor has anyone else in any of the posts in this thread that I read.

Let's try to stay on track here, and not create "straw men" out of thin air. It is indeed the role of Christians to witness to God's truth, regardless of whether the people being witnessed to are in government or not.

 

[Caleb-D]

Sorry, this question might seem kind of random, but did the supreme court justices legalizing gay marrige have anything to do with who's in the white house? The president is obviously not a member of the nine justices, but is there any proof that the majority of them felt pressured to legalize gay marriage because of the party that is in control? Also, does the president have the power to veto or ban such laws?

 

[RDKirk]

?? Where are you coming up with this " ...force unbelievers by the king's sword or the sheriff's pistol to act like Christians ..." stuff???

That's certainly NOT what I posted anywhere, nor has anyone else in any of the posts in this thread that I read.

Let's try to stay on track here, and not create "straw men" out of thin air. It is indeed the role of Christians to witness to God's truth, regardless of whether the people being witnessed to are in government or not.

That is the "Eight Hundred Pound Gorilla in the Living Room" with regard to the vote: Who will wield the king's sword. As James Madison said, "The essence of government is power."

When the issue becomes a matter of choosing between the parties of human politics, and such questions as "how can you be a Christian if you're with X party," then it's disingenuous for anyone to pretend the real issue is one of the personal integrity, but rather a preference for who wields the king's sword...and for whose purpose.

But true gains to the Kingdom of Heaven can never come from the power of the sword, but by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Caretaker]

That is the "Eight Hundred Pound Gorilla in the Living Room" with regard to the vote: Who will wield the king's sword. As James Madison said, "The essence of government is power."

When the issue becomes a matter of choosing between the parties of human politics, and such questions as "how can you be a Christian if you're with X party," then it's disingenuous for anyone to pretend the real issue is one of the personal integrity, but rather a preference for who wields the king's sword...and for whose purpose.

But true gains to the Kingdom of Heaven can never come from the power of the sword, but by the Holy Spirit.

?? Why do you keep harping about a straw man that you've invented?
There is no argument from me with regard to the notion that God does not compel people to follow him, but only invites. Accordingly, any and all who attempt to compel what they imagine to be Godly behavior are not following the example of Jesus. Sunday was Easter, you know. Christ was crucified and arose from the dead. The day will come when God does enforce his judgment on us. But until that day God and his true followers invite, not compel.

But all that has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with the question that I originally challenged you on. That is, Christians do need to witness to the entire world, including those in government.

 

[RDKirk]

But all that has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with the question that I originally challenged you on. That is, Christians do need to witness to the entire world, including those in government.

That was your strawman, which had nothing to do with anything I'd said.

I had said:
What if we were Christians in China? Would our mission be to make disciples, or would it be to fix the Chinese government? Currently Christians in China are making disciples at the rate of 1,000 a week, but they're not doing anything to change the government...are they disobeying Christ? Christians in North Korea have increased their numbers from 5,000 in 1995 to 50,000 today, but they haven't changed the government--have they disobeyed Christ? Have they done better or worse than Christians in America?

 

[Caretaker]

That was your strawman, which had nothing to do with anything I'd said.

I had said:
What if we were Christians in China? Would our mission be to make disciples, or would it be to fix the Chinese government? Currently Christians in China are making disciples at the rate of 1,000 a week, but they're not doing anything to change the government...are they disobeying Christ? Christians in North Korea have increased their numbers from 5,000 in 1995 to 50,000 today, but they haven't changed the government--have they disobeyed Christ? Have they done better or worse than Christians in America?

Actually, what I posted directly challenges what you posted: "Would our mission be to make disciples, or would it be to fix the Chinese government?" When "making disciples" one does not question where the convert works.

 

[Imperiuz]

Voting consciously with ones values in mind and ultimately realizing that our civilization rests upon Judeo-Christian values is not the same as trying to create a theocracy. Voting for a conservative might (general) mean voting for steering politics and society in that direction.

I really can't wrap my head around Christians supporting the merciless slaughter of babies either - especially if you know what it actually looks like. I do however think that the right's ignorance of cultural and social issues, only focusing on economic liberty, in many places of the western world have caused a kind of apathy around such matters. A person like Donald Trump whose message has been all about shaking up the left's domination over popular culture (over our minds) could challenge that. Breitbart recently had an interesting article where they named him the first truly first truly cultural candidate for President since (Pat) Buchanan.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually, what I posted directly challenges what you posted: "Would our mission be to make disciples, or would it be to fix the Chinese government?" When "making disciples" one does not question where the convert works.

"They never tried to change the culture of the host nation--that's not the role of an ambassador." -- RDKirk

Whoaa, there! The implication being that it's not the role of a Christian to try to show the lost in this world the way to Christ??? -- Caretaker.

There was no implication whatsoever in anything I said that Christians would not witness. In fact, if you were reading my posts to greenguzzi regarding the role of an ambassador, you read me assert strongly that an ambassador would encourage defectors to his own country by extolling his culture and the virtues of his country--being a witness.

 

[Caretaker]

"They never tried to change the culture of the host nation--that's not the role of an ambassador." -- RDKirk

Whoaa, there! The implication being that it's not the role of a Christian to try to show the lost in this world the way to Christ??? -- Caretaker.

There was no implication whatsoever in anything I said that Christians would not witness. In fact, if you were reading my posts to greenguzzi regarding the role of an ambassador, you read me assert strongly that an ambassador would encourage defectors to his own country by extolling his culture and the virtues of his country--being a witness.

But when people's hearts change the "culture" is changed.

Hmmmm..... are you a modern day Jonah who is going to be upset if people do indeed change? There are those who imagine that hastening the destruction of the world will hasten the day of the return of Jesus, and conversely delaying the destruction of the world will delay the return of Jesus.

 

[Caretaker]

Voting consciously with ones values in mind and ultimately realizing that our civilization rests upon Judeo-Christian values is not the same as trying to create a theocracy. Voting for a conservative might (general) mean voting for steering politics and society in that direction.

I really can't wrap my head around Christians supporting the merciless slaughter of babies either - especially if you know what it actually looks like. I do however think that the right's ignorance of cultural and social issues, only focusing on economic liberty, in many places of the western world have caused a kind of apathy around such matters. A person like Donald Trump whose message has been all about shaking up the left's domination over popular culture (over our minds) could challenge that. Breitbart recently had an interesting article where they named him the first truly first truly cultural candidate for President since (Pat) Buchanan.

I'm not sure if you were replying to me with the above post. I'll just respond to the question of a theocracy, which perhaps should be addressed in a separate thread. While I am not generally in favor of converting existing governments to theocracies without virtual 100% agreement of the citizens, never-the-less, didn't God make clear in the OT what form of government he favors? But then didn't God also make clear in both the Old and New Testaments that God's rule does not need to extend to the government, but instead starts in one's heart? Although God does punish wrongdoing, he never compels people to accept him but instead only invites. Indeed, it is the fertile ground of a contrite heart that is necessary for someone to invite Jesus in, and that ground is prepared through God's discipline which he gives to those he loves (Hebrews 12:5-12).

 

[NWOWolfpac]

Like I said, the same question has been asked about Republicans: http://www.christianforums.com/threads/how-can-catholics-vote-for-trump.7937384/

Trump is twice divorced. That's wrong according to the Bible too. He's changed his position on abortion, so who knows. Isn't Arnold Schwarzenegger a Republican? Didn't he have a child out of wedlock? They might say they're against all that to appeal to voters but sometimes their actions don't match up.

I believe the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils. What does the Democratic Party thrive on? The abortion industry, and the gay movement to name a few. They are also for euthanasia, and in eradicating God from everyday life by outlawing prayer and teaching kindergartners about homosexuality. They are also for pushing the birth control pill (which causes abortions), and Plan B (the morning after pill) which is an abortifacient onto Catholic hospitals. The country would not thrive but die under leaders that would cause such Chaos. If you love God and Jesus, then be on the side which upholds his values.

 

[RDKirk]

But when people's hearts change the "culture" is changed.

First is method: Changing laws is not changing hearts. If we witness to a politician, it is not because we should expect him to make Christ public policy enforced by the king's sword. It is because we want him to understand that his life and his purpose extend beyond his worldly office, and that all he does in his worldly office is ultimately in vain. The only thing any of us can do today that is not in vain is to present Christ to another person, or to support the presentation of Christ to others...because nothing in this world will translate to the next except the people who are saved.

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place." -- John 18

Second:

How narrow is the gate and difficult the road that leads to life, and few find it. -- Matthew 7

And all nations will hate you because you are my followers. -- Matthew 10

If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of it, the world hates you. -- John 15

So it's already given by Christ that the culture of the world is not going to change.

Hmmmm..... are you a modern day Jonah who is going to be upset if people do indeed change? There are those who imagine that hastening the destruction of the world will hasten the day of the return of Jesus, and conversely delaying the destruction of the world will delay the return of Jesus.

Don't make presumptions about people you don't even know.

 

[Armoured]

I believe the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils. What does the Democratic Party thrive on? The abortion industry, and the gay movement to name a few. They are also for euthanasia, and in eradicating God from everyday life by outlawing prayer and teaching kindergartners about homosexuality. They are also for pushing the birth control pill (which causes abortions), and Plan B (the morning after pill) which is an abortifacient onto Catholic hospitals. The country would not thrive but die under leaders that would cause such Chaos. If you love God and Jesus, then be on the side which upholds his values.

Wow.

 

[Cimorene]

I believe the Republican Party is the lesser of two evils. What does the Democratic Party thrive on? The abortion industry, and the gay movement to name a few. They are also for euthanasia, and in eradicating God from everyday life by outlawing prayer and teaching kindergartners about homosexuality. They are also for pushing the birth control pill (which causes abortions), and Plan B (the morning after pill) which is an abortifacient onto Catholic hospitals. The country would not thrive but die under leaders that would cause such Chaos. If you love God and Jesus, then be on the side which upholds his values.

 

[RDKirk]

The Revelation of John does not change regardless who is president of the United States. The only thing that matters--literally and eternally, the only thing that matters (spend some time in Ecclesiastes)--is whether we have gotten the gospel to yet someone else today.

 

[Lowell81]

But God will hold us accountable for how we vote. If someone votes for a candidate who is in favor of homosexuality then I can't see God being too happy about that. Neither party is perfect but there are some things the Democrats support that outright defy what Scripture says. I think the OP is curious how you can reconcile that.

I think you are looking at this as black and white. Is God happy about the support of say homosexuality? Of coarse not but the REAL question is, whats in YOUR heart. No matter what president we have their beliefs will be against scrpture, does that mean we shouldnt vote? We vote for the lesser evil and who can make the better choice for our country and keep waiting for Jesus to come back

 

[RDKirk]

I think you are looking at this as black and white. Is God happy about the support of say homosexuality? Of coarse not but the REAL question is, whats in YOUR heart. No matter what president we have their beliefs will be against scrpture, does that mean we shouldnt vote? We vote for the lesser evil and who can make the better choice for our country and keep waiting for Jesus to come back

Question is: If the discussion is about what God would rather the king do, would God rather the king use his sword to force homosexuals from being homosexual, or would God rather the king use his sword to force people to feed the widows and orphans?

Which does God mention about more often?

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

Well, I don't think you will go to hell if you support either party. Jesus saves you, not your political views.

Of course, politics do matter. I do not think a Christian can support racism, Nazism, for example.

Both parties have Christian elements. I think Democrats are more Christian when it comes to fiscal issue (except for the Protestant work ethic which they do not seem too big on), but the GOP is more Christian on social issues.

I would be a Democrat if they were pro-life and opposed to gay marriages.

Now they exist, but they seem rare. RINOS seem way more common. I never met a conservative Democrat.