• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Where did the laws of nature come from?

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
So, you're saying that all Chordates have similar body plans and basically all Chordates are the same 'kind'?
The point is not about them having the same body plans but that the genetic info was there to begin with and through recombination, HGT, symbiosis new variations of existing makeup can be produced. But you have to have that basic genetic info there in the first place. So heres a question for you. Being a Christian where did the genetic code for life initiate from. Did God have any input into the code for life.
 
Upvote 0

VirOptimus

A nihilist who cares.
Aug 24, 2005
6,814
4,422
54
✟258,187.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
The point is not about them having the same body plans but that the genetic info was there to begin with and through recombination, HGT, symbiosis new variations of existing makeup can be produced. But you have to have that basic genetic info there in the first place. So heres a question for you. Being a Christian where did the genetic code for life initiate from. Did God have any input into the code for life.

Define "genetic info".
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟553,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I have already shown this several times how scientists determine that similar features use similar genetic info.

You never did show us how bird and bat wings are coded for by the same gene sequences. Any particular reason?

It seems that evolutionists will allow comparisons of features to make claims about the genetic makes of creatures to build their theory of transitional links. But you wont allow that same logic for showing the similarities with Cambrian body plans that are similar to modern day ones.

I'll "allow" it. In fact, I've asked for it multiple times. I'm still waiting for you to show us examples of land mammals with 4 chambered hearts or wings that developed those "body plans" during the Cambrian. But of course you won't address specific questions like that. Better to stick to vague terms like similar body plans or basic genetic info - things which sound like they mean something but actually are vague enough that anything goes.

Squid and Humans Evolved the Same Eye
According to a new study, humans and cephalopods evolved the same eyes through tweaks to the same gene -- even though their eyes arose independently of ours.
http://www.iflscience.com/plants-and-animals/squid-and-humans-evolved-same-eye

Our study suggests that cephalopods acquired Pax-6 splicing variants independent of those in vertebrates

Acquired? That's funny. I thought you were telling us that the genetic coding for all features in modern organisms were pre-existing. Why are you pointing to an article which says that new genetic info is acquired via evolution?

And there's more fun with your vague claims. Is a gene sequence with different numbers of splices in different places on the same gene "similar genetic info" or not? Since you've given no concrete definition, there's no way to know. You have the same problem here you have claiming a designer - you're pretending you can figure out what is or isn't evidence for a claim that doesn't' actually claim anything.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Derek Meyer

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
438
114
45
Pretoria
✟24,692.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So heres a question for you. Being a Christian where did the genetic code for life initiate from. Did God have any input into the code for life.
Genetic codes are very similar among all living organisms and represent emerging properties from a table with 64 entries. Very similar as the formation of crystals; emerging properties from hundreds of entries. All emerging properties resulting from the combination of chemical compounds. Basic chemistry.

In science input from Gods are not considered.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Genetic codes are very similar among all living organisms and represent emerging properties from a table with 64 entries. Very similar as the formation of crystals; emerging properties from hundreds of entries. All emerging properties resulting from the combination of chemical compounds. Basic chemistry.

In science input from Gods are not considered.
Yes in science the supernatural is not considered. That is exactly what I was saying earlier when someone else was trying to ask who the supernatural designer was. But ultimately there needs to be a designer in life and you as a Christian should know that.
 
Upvote 0

Derek Meyer

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
438
114
45
Pretoria
✟24,692.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes in science the supernatural is not considered. That is exactly what I was saying earlier when someone else was trying to ask who the supernatural designer was. But ultimately there needs to be a designer in life and you as a Christian should know that.
Nope. All designers we know of are naturally occurring. Not God. Therefore I find the whole Intelligent Design movement and the so-called arguments they present as completely silly.
 
Upvote 0

Derek Meyer

Well-Known Member
Feb 25, 2016
438
114
45
Pretoria
✟24,692.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The genetic potential of an organism carried in the base sequence of its DNA (or, in some viruses, RNA) according to the genetic code.
Ah, great. Though a lot of words in there are very vague in meaning. The definition you provided can mean anything.

Anyhow, now that you provided a definition, how exactly do you measure the amount of genetic information? Does it have units to compare whether a crocodile contains more or less genetic potential carried on the base sequence of it's DNA according to the genetic code than an elephant does? How do you measure genetic information?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You never did show us how bird and bat wings are coded for by the same gene sequences. Any particular reason?
I didn't realize that you had asked. But I have shown other similar features having similar genes. There are many examples of similar features in distant animals that even have similar gens for those similar features. If evolution states that the genes for apes and humans which show similar features then why wouldn't it be a logical conclusion that any other similar feature will have similar genes.

Distinguishing between Similar Traits

In general, organisms that share similar physical features and genomes tend to be more closely related than those that do not. Such features that overlap both morphologically (in form) and genetically are referred to as homologous structures; they stem from developmental similarities that are based on evolution. For example, the bones in the wings of bats and birds have homologous structures .
http://www.boundless.com/biology/te...tinguishing-between-similar-traits-542-11751/

I'll "allow" it. In fact, I've asked for it multiple times. I'm still waiting for you to show us examples of land mammals with 4 chambered hearts or wings that developed those "body plans" during the Cambrian. But of course you won't address specific questions like that. Better to stick to vague terms like similar body plans or basic genetic info - things which sound like they mean something but actually are vague enough that anything goes.
The vague term you say of body plans is common language that is used by evolution to describe the features of Cambrian life. It isn't necessary to show every single feature that is around today in the Cambrian period. The evidence talks about the basic body plans. The wing for example is basically a limb. The basic plan for hearts was around during the Cambrian period. A four chambered heart is a variation of the basic heart that suddenly appeared during the Cambrian period. The same as the eye, brain, gut, limbs, tails, digestive systems ect ect

Acquired? That's funny. I thought you were telling us that the genetic coding for all features in modern organisms were pre-existing. Why are you pointing to an article which says that new genetic info is acquired via evolution?
The main reason I use sites like this is they show evidence through testing for what I was claiming. That similar features such as the eye in squid and humans have similar genes. So similar features use similar genes. What that site chooses to say about how these features came about is another thing which hasn't been proven through testing and scientific verification. So I can disagree with some of their claims about features being the result of Darwinian evolution without any evidence.

And there's more fun with your vague claims. Is a gene sequence with different numbers of splices in different places on the same gene "similar genetic info" or not? Since you've given no concrete definition, there's no way to know. You have the same problem here you have claiming a designer - you're pretending you can figure out what is or isn't evidence for a claim that doesn't' actually claim anything.
The important point is that the original basic genetic code was the result of design. Even the mechanism for it to add variation is the product of design capability. There has been no case where complex ordered information and coding systems like computer software have been the result of something that hasn't been designed by some input from an intelligent source.
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟553,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
I didn't realize that you had asked.

Yep, I had. Any now you're ignoring the question yet again. I wonder why...

The vague term you say of body plans is common language that is used by evolution to describe the features of Cambrian life. It isn't necessary to show every single feature that is around today in the Cambrian period.The evidence talks about the basic body plans. The wing for example is basically a limb. The basic plan for hearts was around during the Cambrian period. A four chambered heart is a variation of the basic heart that suddenly appeared during the Cambrian period.

Ugh. The more I read the more it sounds like the kinds tapdance from creationists. That is, evolution doesn't happen because everything stays within their kinds. If we find an undeniable case of evolution actually happening, that's just variation within a kind which means that evolution still didn't happen. Same thing here. What's a basic body plan? Whatever it needs to change to be to rationalize whatever you happen to be making up this post.

The main reason I use sites like this is they show evidence through testing for what I was claiming.

The more interesting part to me is that if one goes and actually reads them, they show evidence against many of your other claims. That's the tough part about making this stuff up as you go along. Finding a single source you can cherry pick or quote mine to back up one individual claim is relatively easy. But you're running into the harder problem - putting together a consistent theory which doesn't contradict itself or the actual evidence.

That similar features such as the eye in squid and humans have similar genes.

What measurement are you using to quantify this similarity? Exactly how similar are these features relative to the genes which code for them? Let's see some numbers to back up the handwaving.

The important point is that the original basic genetic code was the result of design.

Citation needed.
 
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟553,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
Yes in science the supernatural is not considered. That is exactly what I was saying earlier when someone else was trying to ask who the supernatural designer was.

I didn't ask who the supernatural designer was. I asked who the designer was and it worked. You alternately claimed not to know, not to want to talk about it, and now are claiming that it is supernatural thus unable to be reconciled with science. That's an interesting variety of answers.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Yep, I had. Any now you're ignoring the question yet again. I wonder why...
If you would have read the linked article it would have answered your question.
Ugh. The more I read the more it sounds like the kinds tapdance from creationists. That is, evolution doesn't happen because everything stays within their kinds. If we find an undeniable case of evolution actually happening, that's just variation within a kind which means that evolution still didn't happen. Same thing here. What's a basic body plan? Whatever it needs to change to be to rationalize whatever you happen to be making up this post.
Well your going to have to cite evidence for that undeniable example of evolution happening to be able to substantiate that comment. .

The more interesting part to me is that if one goes and actually reads them, they show evidence against many of your other claims. That's the tough part about making this stuff up as you go along. Finding a single source you can cherry pick or quote mine to back up one individual claim is relatively easy. But you're running into the harder problem - putting together a consistent theory which doesn't contradict itself or the actual evidence.
If I was worried about cheery picking like you say then why would I post articles that like you say support evolution. Like I said show me the verification of these articles that I am using that prove what they say about evolution. They make claims but they dont prove anything. They can make up stories about how the Cambrian explosion wasn't really a problem and come up with explanations as to how it happen (at last count I think there was around 12 odd different theories on the Cambrian period).

But none are verified so the only verified part of that article is that the majority of life's body plans came about during the Cambrian period because they have the fossil evidence to show that. They aren't trying to build some theory for the creation of life out of those fossils with a lot of gaps and assumptions. They have clear and simple evidence other fossils which show the shapes and features which they can compare to modern day living things. So show me some evidence for what they are saying is scientifically verified and then you can make some case that it contradicts what I am saying. Otherwise just like the article itself its just words, claims with no support.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
I didn't ask who the supernatural designer was. I asked who the designer was and it worked. You alternately claimed not to know, not to want to talk about it, and now are claiming that it is supernatural thus unable to be reconciled with science. That's an interesting variety of answers.
No I said it was irrelevant to assessing whether there is design in life or not which is different to saying that I dont know. I have my own views on who the designer is and I am not worried about discussing that but that is irrelevant to whether there is design in nature or not. As I said on a number of times if you see a designed machine on a beach you dont have to know who designed it to realize it was designed.

I also know taking thing down the road of who is the designer would derail things into a debate about trying to prove a designer who may not be able to be completely verified through scientific testing whether they were supernatural or not. Like I said even if the designer was a super intelligent alien race in a far away part of the universe how do we prove that scientifically. So all this is irrelevant as to whether there is design in life or not. That is proved by assessing the qualities of design and whether they exist in what we see in life and existence.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟553,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
If you would have read the linked article it would have answered your question.

Which article specifically addressed the question of whether wings in both birds and mammals are coded for by the same base pairs?

Well your going to have to cite evidence for that undeniable example of evolution happening to be able to substantiate that comment.

Really? You're denying that speciation happens? Seems that the creationist part of ID can't stay hidden very long.

They can make up stories about how the Cambrian explosion wasn't really a problem and come up with explanations as to how it happen (at last count I think there was around 12 odd different theories on the Cambrian period).

Make it 13 if we include your ideas.

Are you claiming that if there's no explanation for something we have to pretend that a supernatural designer was involved? Sounds like yet another case where I write "citation needed" and you change the subject.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

KCfromNC

Regular Member
Apr 18, 2007
30,256
17,181
✟553,130.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No I said it was irrelevant to assessing whether there is design in life

And I've said that it is impossible to determine design if you don't know what the nature and abilities of the designer are. That seems pretty obvious to me.

But I guess that's irrelevant, because you've already admitted you can't identify the level design even in cases where we do know those things about the designer.
 
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟86,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I find it very sad that the staunch atheist is so limited in their intellectual scope. We humans have known for millennia that there are realities and aspects of this reality which are outside our ability to know, prove, or even perceive in an absolute sense. But that does not mean they are not real or actual.

So many things once thought by the “rationalists” to be imagined, hallucinated, made up, etc., have now been shown to be true. It’s sad really! It is as if they lack the capacity to consider in the abstract. So sad they cannot access that part of their brain. They are so like the lower forms (pure animals) they claim to be. Who knows maybe they are.

Human physiology only perceives visually and audibly within a tiny speck of a vast spectrum. We KNOW some creatures have access to parts of this spectrum that humans do not share. On the visual side we can be sure they are seeing things that are not there to us and some are hearing things we cannot hear. But we are intelligent and creative like our maker and have come to develop extensions of our senses that assist us in understanding or at least recognizing these other realms or dimensions. This however does not mean or equal other unperceived or unproven realms or dimensions do not exist but still because of their handicap in the area of the abstract they must assume their non-reality. Now at least SOME quantum physicists are beginning to see that there are aspects of this reality (or others) existing right here right now that the “rationalist” cannot see or hear…they are real and extant whether we as individuals can perceive, prove, or consider.

The staunch atheist (as opposed to the honest agnostic) is like a small mind inside an infinitely huge box with a sadly minute set of tools who based on their tiny corner of the box they have explored with these limited tools makes huge judgment and assumption based leaps in understanding what is INSIDE the vastly huge unknowable (in an absolute sense) box…therefore have ZERO ziloch faculties to even consider that there might be an outside of the box. For them not only is the INSIDE of the box all there is, but it is all conditioned by their limited stunted way of seeing, measuring, and determining things about the box relative to their little mind and place in the box….

This is even true on the physical plane (realm or dimension)…we KNOW the whirring of the planets each makes their own unique sound (if for no other reason than because they vibrate)….we higher beings can imagine what these sounds may be not knowing absolutely…one day we may intelligently design instruments that sense and measure the reality of these vibrational waves but still never know the beauty of being able to hear them. That does not mean they are not real.

Empiricism from the view of the “rationalist” is slanted and is retranslated to only fit their limited corner of the box view when in reality the term means that which can demonstrated by observation, experience, or experiment….

They of course will only allow “observation” when it suits their purpose and deny the necessity of it also when convenient….”experiment” is only necessary when they are not projecting their opinion into the ancient past and even then will vehemently deny the relativity or applicability of any experiments not supportive of their camp or view and…only accept “experience” that they themselves have experienced and automatically reject any and all experience of others that differs from or calls into question their assumption based pre-conceived conclusions.

Let’s look at “Empirical” and see what it actually means…

Empirical - based on, concerned with, or verifiable by, observation or experience

Empirical evidence (also empirical data, sense experience, empirical knowledge, or the a posteriori) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.

em·pir·i·cal [em-pir-i-kuh
C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png
C:\DOCUME~1\ADMINI~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\clip_image001.png
l] Show IPA

adjective

1.derived from, or guided by, experience or experiment.

2.depending upon experience or observation alone, without using scientific method or theory, especially as in medicine.

3.provable or verifiable by experience or experiment.

So we can see here that in fact empirical evidence does not rely on having to be demonstrated by the scientific method whatsoever, and that indeed even God can be said to be proven to exist through empirical means. We hear what this God has said would take place and then witness/observe that it has…we experience God personally and our experience with God has shown to us He is real and alive…God can be demonstrated in the transformation of others not yet saved…since we are guided by God and our experience with God is derived from God then God is revealed empirically. Likewise since the clear majority of people from all cultures in all times across all gender, age, social position, and educational lines believe there IS a God or gods and so many have experienced this reality either directly or indirectly for the modern (still minority) limited box viewers to accuse all the others of being delusional shows it is they who are delusional.

“If God would only make Himself known then I would believe….”

No they wouldn’t because He has (only not to them)

“If God would only speak audibly then I would believe….”

No they wouldn’t because He has spoken to many (just not to them)

“If God would just appear then I would believe…”

Sorry that is also a delusion because He has, only not as far as they would define it…

So for them, just because THEY do not have the ability or have had any such experience, in order to protect their ego’s integrity they MUST designate all who do have this ability or experience to the realm of liar, or else delusional….so sad…so very sad….having been stripped of their natural human ability to think outside the box, they can only think in terms of the box corner they reside in, and settle for the degree to which they have been derailed from full implementation of the joy of appreciation of possibility and imagination to go there….and then finally within each group of box thinkers they must continuously shrink the box of inquiry and questioning to already established box thoughts and only those from those within their box group and then only from among those who support their box opinion…

Now though this observation and experience I and myriads of others have had dealing with these individuals contending with their limits in thinking ability, and though what I have said above is totally “rational” they will not be able to make sense of it (they are incapable of following the thought process expressed because it makes them question themselves which they are not able to do and still maintain their ego integrity)…we must forgive them as they have been taught what to think not how to think…

Accept their views and pass, or question them and fail! Agree and be deemed intelligent and rational or disagree and be deemed as a liar or delusional….however, this is itself delusional.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pshun2404

Newbie
Jan 26, 2012
6,027
620
✟86,400.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
If in the beginning planets and stars formed according to the laws of chemistry and physics then those laws already existed in order to govern those processes. I have no problem believing that God (the maker of those laws) made sure the matter/energy followed these guidelines...He knew what He wanted and made it happen and this is how He made it happen.
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Which article specifically addressed the question of whether wings in both birds and mammals are coded for by the same base pairs?
I linked an article about 3 or 4 posts back. But the problem is you are not looking at things in proper context. When you say bird and bat wings they are not exactly the same. One has feathers and one has skin so the genetic code or proteins for this are not going to be the same to start with. You are not comparing like for like. But its the basic structure or body plan that is what scientists talk about in the Cambrian period being like modern creatures. So its the basic structure of the limbs which are like the arms of animals and the hands and digits which are the same as well but will vary in length in bats or some birds.

So the basic structure or body plan of bats and birds is similar and the material that covers them are different. So the genetic info that makes up the bone structures, muscle, tendons ect is similar. How do we know this with even going to the actual molecular evidence. Because evolution states that all creatures have a basic similarity in their genetics according to common decent. The arm limb, hand and finger digits are suppose to have evolved from a common feature. A common feature has common genetic info. If you choose to reject this logical position then you are rejecting what scientists say about evolution.
Distinguishing between Similar Traits
In general, organisms that share similar physical features and genomes tend to be more closely related than those that do not. Such features that overlap both morphologically (in form) and genetically are referred to as homologous structures; they stem from developmental similarities that are based on evolution. For example, the bones in the wings of bats and birds have homologous structures .
http://www.boundless.com/biology/te...tinguishing-between-similar-traits-542-11751/

Really? You're denying that speciation happens? Seems that the creationist part of ID can't stay hidden very long.
It is not a question of whether evolution or speciation happens to a certain limit and I have stated this before. The evidence is there for animals changing to certain degrees Its the level of that change that is in dispute. It is the claim that evolution and speciation can move beyond the species that has not be scientifically verified and is assumed. What evolution and even Darwin himself classed as a species is up to interpretation and there are several views. There may be many bat species but they are still bats and have been for millions of years. Those bats were not some other animal and they are not going to turn into another type of animal. There can be a great variation of features within a type of creature such as with dogs. But that variation which may be determined as different species only because they cant mate anymore doesn't mean they are going to become another different type of animal. Plus there are other reasons (driving forces for change which can transfer genetic material that is non adaptive and said to be more dominate then Darwinian evolution. The evidence points to non adaptive forces being responsible such as HGT, symbiosis, epigenetics, diverse self gene elements, developmental bias, extra-genetic inheritance ect.

Make it 13 if we include your ideas.
I appreciate the compliment in putting me up there with the scientists who have written papers on these theories but you fail to observe that this is not my idea but those of scientists which I have posted a few times before. IE
Universal Genome in the Origin of Metazoa: Thoughts About Evolution
This model has two major predictions, first that a significant fraction of genetic information in lower taxons must be functionally useless but becomes useful in higher taxons, and second that one should be able to turn on in lower taxons some of the complex latent developmental programs, e.g. a program of eye development or antibody synthesis in sea urchin.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17660714
The protein folds as Platonic forms: New support for the pre-Darwinian conception of evolution by natural law
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12419661

Are you claiming that if there's no explanation for something we have to pretend that a supernatural designer was involved? Sounds like yet another case where I write "citation needed" and you change the subject.
No I am saying we shouldn't restrict the possibilities to anything in particular and allow for alternative ideas outside the consensus if it fits the evidence. The fact is Darwinian evolution has come under fire because it doesn't fit the evidence. So we have to be open to look at what other ways life changes and comes about. That includes the many ideas that I have posted from the scientists which show good evidence.
 
Upvote 0

Gracchus

Senior Veteran
Dec 21, 2002
7,199
821
California
Visit site
✟38,182.00
Faith
Pantheist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Others
As I said on a number of times if you see a designed machine on a beach you dont have to know who designed it to realize it was designed.
You have seen other machines. You know they are designed. A savage might think a machine was just a strange sort of animal.
But the theist thinks everything is designed. It is all part of God's design. Therefore there is nothing un-designed. You can have your cake and eat it too, only if the cake is a fantasy.

:wave:
 
Upvote 0

stevevw

inquisitive
Nov 4, 2013
16,280
1,829
Brisbane Qld Australia
✟327,007.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You have seen other machines. You know they are designed. A savage might think a machine was just a strange sort of animal.
But the theist thinks everything is designed. It is all part of God's design. Therefore there is nothing un-designed. You can have your cake and eat it too, only if the cake is a fantasy.

:wave:
That doesn't make sense. How can anyone tell if something is intelligently designed without comparing it to something thats not intelligently designed. You dont have to be a theist to realize something is intelligently designed. Everyone who is intelligent regardless of whether they are a theist has seen other machines and knows what is intelligently designed and what is not. But even if we didn't see designed things we intuitively know that something is designed. Thats why we are sending out certain intelligent signals that are different to natural signals into the universe to find intelligent life. Thats why even ancient people could tell the difference without ever seeing a machine. Even if we seen something from an alien race we would immediately know it is designed.
 
Upvote 0