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Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

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46AND2

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(or were you trying to make the case that we descend from guinea pigs ??)

The vitamin C gene in guinea pigs is broken via a completely different mutation than are those of humans and primates...which is, again, exactly what we would predict based on evolution.
 
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The vitamin C gene in guinea pigs is broken via a completely different mutation than are those of humans and primates...which is, again, exactly what we would predict based on evolution.

Now here I thought this mutation stuff was suppose to help the animal worlds. It appears information was removed, not increased.
 
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46AND2

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Now here I thought this mutation stuff was suppose to help the animal worlds. It appears information was removed, not increased.

Oooh, a double whammy fallacious argument. Well done. You managed to reply with a response that is both a red herring, and a strawman. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Paul of Eugene OR

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Now here I thought this mutation stuff was suppose to help the animal worlds. It appears information was removed, not increased.

Clearly you haven't been paying attention to explanations about how evolution works. Many many harmful mutations occur. This has been repeated to everybody, including you, over and over. But those are weeded out by natural selection. That has been repeated to you over and over as well. Only on occasion are there beneficial mutations. These, however, are favored by natural selection. So they accumulate.

I hope you paid attention this time. There will be a test.
 
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BobRyan

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L-gulonolactone oxidase (EC 1.1.3.8) is an enzyme that produces vitamin C, but is non-functional in Haplorrhini (including humans), in some bats, and in guinea pigs

Nothing at all about "DIFFERENT break" in bats vs guinea pigs vs humans.

Rather it is common to haplorhines or the "dry-nosed" primates,

The vitamin C gene in guinea pigs is broken via a completely different mutation than are those of humans and primates...which is, again, exactly what we would predict based on evolution.

Feel free to show the mutation in action creating a "different break". Since in fact you cannot show that humans ever produced vitamine C at all. (as we all know)

There is no evidence that it is "broken at all" -- they never had that ability to start with. There is no find showing that they had it. In the Bible mankind is given fruit and nuts as food in Genesis 1 - so from the very start the source of vitmanine C for mankind was fruit.

Blind faith evolutionism relies on "circular logic" to try and get its just-so-stories to fly. First 'assuming there is no God and no Eden, and no accuracy in the Word of Genesis 1' - then claiming that proof for evolutionism is that mankind with no Eden - has a broken Vitamine C gene (that presumably used to work)

"Stories easy enough to tell - but they are not science because there is no way of putting them to the test" is all you have in exchange for the Word of God.
 
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BobRyan

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Now here I thought this mutation stuff was suppose to help the animal worlds. It appears information was removed, not increased.

Mutations are train wrecks that create space shuttles out of piles of rock according to blind-faith-evolutionism.
 
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BobRyan

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The theory of evolution is not blind faith, rather it is evidence based. For example, you yourself have, in your body, a broken vitamin c gene, that is broken in the same way in other primates. That shared break is overwhelmingly improbable except as explained by the notion of common ancestry.

Animals have teeth - we have teeth - so also do Dolophins. We did not come from Dolphins. Those tiny "edge" stories do not prove anything except that we can find similarities. Air-breathing life forms - come in many forms - that does not make us all related to one single plant a long long time ago. That sort of argument is a rabbit trail among a great many when it comes to "similarity stories"


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(or were you trying to make the case that we descend from guinea pigs ??)

The loss of activity of the gene for L-gulonolactone oxidase (GULO) has occurred separately in the history of several species. GULO activity has been lost in some species of bats, but others retain it.[4][5] The loss of this enzyme activity is responsible for the inability of guinea pigs to enzymatically synthesize vitamin C. Both these events happened independently of the loss in the haplorrhini suborder of primates, including humans.

The remains of this non-functional gene with many mutations is, however, still present in the genomes of guinea pigs and humans.[6] It is unknown if remains of the gene exist in the bats who lack GULO activity. The function of GULO appears to have been lost several times, and possibly re-acquired, in several lines of passerine birds, where ability to make vitamin C varies from species to species.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L-gulonolactone_oxidase

You seem to be a bit confused about the shape of the tree of life. Of course we don't come from Dolphins. Dolphins did come from the first, early mammals, as did we.

Sadly you are using your own circular-logic to claim that my tree of life belief - which is the one we find in Genesis 1 and 2 - is anything like blind-faith-evolutionism.

the point is that your "proof by similarity" story telling is lamented even by your own blind faith evolutionist promoters - such as Patterson.

==========================


The quote published by Sunderland (A Bible believing Christian) is from a personal letter dated 10th April 1979 from Dr. Colin Patterson (atheist, evolutionist and Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution). to creationist Luther D. Sunderland and is referring to Dr. Patterson's book "Evolution" (1978, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd.).

Even though as an atheist scientist he must "believe in evolutionism", Dr. Patterson is still compelled to be honest and up front with Sunderland, and so results this most candid letter from Patterson:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.
You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

I wrote the text of my book four years ago. If I were to write it now, I think the book would be rather different. Gradualism is a concept I believe in, not just because of Darwin’s authority, but because my understanding of genetics seems to demand it.

Yet Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils. As a palaeontologist myself, I am much occupied with the philosophical problems of identifying ancestral forms in the fossil record.

You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Now let us enumerate those points to help those who are not inclined to read Patterson's comments carefully.

1. I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book.

2.If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

3. You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?

4. Gould and the American Museum people are hard to contradict when they say there are no transitional fossils.

5. You say that I should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.

6. [The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record.

7. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question.

8. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection.

9. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test.

Amazing how much more direct and honest and “to the point” this statement from a leading atheist evolutionist on the subject of transitional fossil examples – than one often finds among theistic evolutionists.

HE argues that it would "mislead the reader" simply to "ARRANGE fossils" as Simpson did with Othaniel Marsh's "arranged" horse series.

But "Caveat Emptor" -- not EVERY evolutionist is going to be so forthright and upfront with that glaringly inconvenient detail, certainly very few theistic evolutionists.
TALK ORIGINS spinning the point
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
On a side note the "shocking discovery" that false factless accusations do not become 'true' simply because they are made - is a bit of a reality shock for some.

I have read the material -- others here have not - rather they make their factless false accusation then expect me to do their research for them and then post it to try and help support their 'resort to false accusation when you have no data' solutions for blind faith evolutionism.

I was not quoting anti-evolutionists or creationists - these are all diehard evolutionists. Your implied argument that nobody should notice any inconvenient or less-than-flattering-details in evolutionism ... is "instructive".

No one here... least of all me... is questioning your ability to imagine things.

I can also restrict myself to "posting things that I imagine" - but I choose to post things that your own atheist diehard evolutionist scientists are saying.

I am not saying that we should ignore inconvenient details by any means. Not in the slightest

Yet you argue in favor of factless accusations -- merely because those accusations are "against' inconvenient details in the many-storied book of evolution"-- statements that do not appear to be flattering to blind faith evolutionism??


, I find the iffy bits of evolution to be the most interesting aspects of it.

Then you have a gold mine of a religion - it provides an endless supply of that sort of thing.

I frankly could not care less what any evolutionary scientist has to say on the matter.

Correction -- You could not "care less about any non-positive statements , unflattering to belief in evolutionism - that might be made by any evolutionary scientist".

You have free will - if the lake of fire is so wonderful - so enticing that not even the "revelations" from your own atheist evolutionists are sufficient wake-up calls. Far be it from me to dissuade you from your free will choice. I respect your right to make that choice. But I would hate to have you do so - totally uniformed about the fact that even your own atheist scientists are known to admit to a few 'non-flattering details' -

And I think you will agree with me - the the guy posting in the OP -- may not be all that excited about also leaping into the Rev 20 lake of fire.

But a great many on this board - prefer eternal life that comes with acceptance of the Bible.

Furthermore, I find the cessation of existence I believe death to be far more terrifying than any lake of fire.

I would be. Complete nonexistence terrifies me more than any negative afterlife could. Not that all atheists don't believe in an afterlife, but that is the case with me. You have no idea, the dread I feel, as I crawl closer to nonexistence with every fraction of a second that passes. That I will live to see many of the people I love and care about cease to be, before I follow them into oblivion.

Here's the problem: I don't believe that will happen for anyone, regardless of belief. I would very much like to believe that, but as of yet, seeking belief has not lead to me obtaining it.

You have adopted a mythology that leads you to only one certain end - oblivion by Both your beliefs and that of the Bible.

You have chosen a mythology that combines the worst outcome in both views and makes it a certainty for yourself - no matter which model is correct yours or the Word of God.

If it is true that this is the very outcome you least prefer - why not be warned away from a strategy that merely serves to guarantee that very outcome EVEN in the case where the myth you have selected for yourself is pure error and the Bible is correct?

Given two options --
A. has 100% failure == oblivion. And will get you this same outcome EVEN if B is the right model.
B. has a decision point where failure can be avoided -- even if only 10% of the time.

How in the world is B not preferable to A?
 
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BobRyan

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Ron, when you copy and paste quote mines from lying sources you are sadly lying by proxy. You may not understand that you told a lie. You are like a little child that trusts the bad kid and repeats a lie as if it were the truth. Did the little kid know that he was lying? Probably not. How do you keep him from doing this again?

Seriously Bob, you should know better by now.

your entire contribution at this point is "proof by name-calling" you provide not one fact other than "I make this false accusation - so now it must be true" as the heart of your argument - and wonder how it is that this is "less than compelling"...

Where is the mystery??
 
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PsychoSarah

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You have free will - if the lake of fire is so wonderful - so enticing that not even the "revelations" from your own atheist evolutionists are sufficient wake-up calls. Far be it from me to dissuade you from your free will choice. I respect your right to make that choice. But I would hate to have you do so - totally uniformed about the fact that even your own atheist scientists are known to admit to a few 'non-flattering details' -
I told you a non flattering detail myself. How is this not expressing awareness that evolution as a theory is not perfect? No theory is perfect. Arguably, it is impossible for any theory to be perfect. But, the fact that it isn't perfect, doesn't make every aspect, or even the majority of aspects, garbage.

And I think you will agree with me - the the guy posting in the OP -- may not be all that excited about also leaping into the Rev 20 lake of fire.
Nope, they definitely would not be eager for that. I wouldn't be either, I just said it would be preferable to the nonexistence that I think will happen when I do die. Ironically, if I believed in hell (a requirement to fear it), then I would most certainly also believe in god, and thus, if Christianity were true, would be saved from it, and have no reason to fear it. In fact, unless you are a person that believes that going to hell relates to some degree your actions beyond worship, you don't have anything to fear in regards to hell, be you a believer or not. NonChristians do not believe in the Christian idea of hell; why would anyone fear something they think doesn't exist?

But a great many on this board - prefer eternal life that comes with acceptance of the Bible.
Oh, I assure you, I would much rather believe that my existence will continue in some way after I die. But, I don't believe that is the case. I can't make myself believe it on a whim, that isn't how belief works, and if you think that is how it works, demonstrate it for me. Make yourself believe that the sun is purple. If belief is a complete conscious choice, then you should be able to do it without knowing the whole time that you are lying to yourself.

However, unlike me, there are people that view an eternal existence of any kind to be pointless, or even a hell worse than nonexistence, regardless as to the contents of that afterlife.

You have adopted a mythology that leads you to only one certain end - oblivion by Both your beliefs and that of the Bible.

I didn't adopt it; you act as if I chose to be an atheist. I have never been a theist, and no one ever attempted to indoctrinate me as a child. I am, and have always been, an agnostic atheist. Plus, I have been fighting that ever since my grandmother died when I was 13. You either haven't been paying attention to what I have said about being a seeker, you think I am lying, or you just flat out do not care.

You have chosen a mythology that combines the worst outcome in both views and makes it a certainty for yourself - no matter which model is correct yours or the Word of God.
How have I combined two views exactly? Most agnostic atheists do not believe in an afterlife. I would say that it is probably even less common to believe in one amongst gnostic atheists. Are you talking about the afterlife shenanigans?

The truth isn't always nice, it isn't always preferable, and it isn't always comforting. I am well aware that, from your perspective, there is no winning with being an agnostic atheist. I am not one because of some perceived benefit; I am one because of a lack of evidence for deities. I honestly think I would be personally better off if I was a believer; that's why I am a seeker. But, I cannot just choose to be one; without my personal standard of evidence being satisfied, the most I could do is, potentially, lie to myself in a pathetic attempt to convince myself that I believed, and hope that I could delude myself enough to forget I was lying to myself. Chances are, it would not amount to anything more than me always being aware, at least in part, that I was willfully being deceptive to myself.

Also, supporting evolution is completely independent from being an atheist. It didn't even contribute to me being one, or having trouble becoming a theist.

But, all of that is irrelevant, because I am not an atheist by choice, as I have mentioned before.

If it is true that this is the very outcome you least prefer - why not be warned away from a strategy that merely serves to guarantee that very outcome EVEN in the case where the myth you have selected for yourself is pure error and the Bible is correct?

I am trying to be a believer, how have you not figured that out yet? Do you not understand what a seeker is?

Given two options --
A. has 100% failure == oblivion. And will get you this same outcome EVEN if B is the right model.
B. has a decision point where failure can be avoided -- even if only 10% of the time.

How in the world is B not preferable to A?
Personal preference is unrelated to ability to believe, or truth for that matter. I would much rather think I was immortal than live in fear of death at all, but I could never force myself to think I was, because evidence points to the contrary. As for deities, there really isn't evidence for or against them, but the chances of any specific one existing are pretty small. Furthermore, their existence is in no way tied to whether or not there is an afterlife.

I would also much rather think that the sun is purple (my favorite color), how well do you think I could get myself to believe it though? I know that atheism is not appealing. I don't find it appealing either. Wanting something to be true is not the same as believing it to be true, and neither thing makes it true.
 
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46AND2

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Nothing at all about "DIFFERENT break" in bats vs guinea pigs vs humans.

Rather it is common to haplorhines or the "dry-nosed" primates,



Feel free to show the mutation in action creating a "different break".

This post explains it pretty thoroughly:

MarkT, you asked, "how do you know [haplorrhines] are related," and, "how do you know [the polymorphism is] a deletion?" Well, let's look at all the data, without any presuppositions:

  1. Not only do haplorrhines (a primate suborder) and guinea pigs have inactive copies of L-ascorbic acid-producing L-gulono-γ-lactone oxidase (well technically, it produces 2-keto-gulono-γ-lactone, witch spontaneously converts into L-ascorbic acid), but they also posses the genes for all the remaining enzymes in the metabolic pathway, such as UDP-glucose dehydrogenase (4p15.1) and glucuronic acid epimerase (15q23).
  2. Haplorrhine GULO is inactive due to a missing base pair in the amino acid coding region of exon 10, which shifts its reading frame. This shift forms a stop codon that is is prior to that of active GULOs. Not only is this stop codon present, and is this base pair missing in all haplorrhine GULOPs, but it is not found in the guinea pig GULOP; which was inactivated by one its 3 stop codons in exons 2, 3, and 6.
  3. There are many shared single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) among haplorrhine GULOPs, but not with the guinea pig GULOP. And the shared haplorrhine SNPs fall in a hierarchical grouping, where each set falls within another set (a nested hierarchy).

Notice how I've intentionally worded this to make no assumptions about ancestry or mutation? So now let's look at the models of GULO deactivation and of common ancestry and see how well they fit the data:


  1. If haplorrhines and guinea pigs once biosynthesized L-ascorbic acid, we should find the genes for the rest of the pathway. And we do.
  2. Deactivation
    1. We should also find deactivating mutations in the GULOPs (which manifest themselves as deviation from active GULO sequences in other animals, such that the GULO enzyme is not expressed). And we do.
    2. If the deactivation occurred in an ancestor common to the haplorrhines, we should expect to find the same deactivating mutation in all haplorrhine GULOPs. And we do.
    3. Since there are many other species genetically closer to haplorrhines than guinea pigs, and since those species have active GULOs, the guinea pig GULOP deactivation should be lineage-specific; so we should expect to find its deactivating mutation in a different location. And we do.
  3. Since deactivated genes (pseudogenes) accumulate mutations from generation to generation, and since the haplorrhine GULOP would have to have been in pseudogene form across many speciation events (and in turn, many common ancestors), we should find shared mutations (again, manifesting as shared SNPs), and we should find that they are arranged in such a way that they give an unbroken line of inheritance for every species (a nested hierarchy). And we do.

As you can see, the only model that parsimoniously fits all the data is that of common ancestry; where the shared SNPs are shared mutations.

Here are some publications on the topic (you can find them on PubMed):

Nishikimi, M., T. Kawai, and K. Yagi. "Guinea pigs possess a highly mutated gene for L-gulono-γ-lactone oxidase, the key enzyme for L-ascorbic acid biosynthesis missing in this species." Journal of Biological Chemistry 267.30 (1992): 21967-1972.

Ohta, Y., and M. Nishikimi. "Random nucleotide substitutions in primate nonfunctional gene for L-gulono-γ-lactone oxidase, the missing enzyme in L-ascorbic acid biosynthesis." Biochimica et Biophysica Acta 1472.1-2 (1999): 408-11.


And if you can't access the publication by Ohta and Nishikimi to see the nested hierarchy, here's a phylogenetic tree I made with the NCBI's BLAST program, using nucleotide sequences of GULO/GULOP exon 10, and a multiple sequence alignment I made with the ClustalW2 program on the EMBL-EBI's website:

Just type in evolutionarymodel dot com slash GULOP_NH.jpg


http://www.christianforums.com/thre...y-among-primates.4109582/page-2#post-54450319
 
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PsychoSarah

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these little fictional stories fit in quite well with blind-faith-evolutionism because the model for a true devotee to evolutionism is "fact-optional" - they simply "say it" so it must be so. Thus with their factless accusations "they say it -- so it must be so" no facts needed.

Sad.
But, why have you not responded to my post, #1539?
 
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PsychoSarah

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So then rather than having that false-accusation story-telling continue on in to next month -- let's talk about the actual OP



I think you have been given some marvelous help from your fellow evolutionist-atheists as of late as they try to demonstrate just where this is going.
Come on, we just want your sources. You could easily defend your good name by providing some source for them. These quotes would have to exist for more than 50 years to fall into the realm of "common knowledge" in any regard.

The more you try to avoid giving sources, however, the more suspicious you look, and the worse you will end up being treated... by everyone besides me, I am purposely fighting the urge to be rude to anyone on here in general to promote better social skills.
 
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BobRyan

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Come on, we just want your sources. You could easily defend your good name by providing some source for them. These quotes would have to exist for more than 50 years to fall into the realm of "common knowledge" in any regard.

The more you try to avoid giving sources, however, the more suspicious you look, and the worse you will end up being treated... .

As you have already stated - you could google them if you actually had an interest in the detail - and everyone knows it. These notes are old enough in my files that I don't know if the original internet source is still online or not.

Still I will help you google - tell me what quote you don't think "exists" and I will google it for you since I sincerely believe that many evolutionists may need some help with that.

As for "evols treating me worse" -- there is no such thing. I have seen them respond "false accusation first" and 'ad hominem first" for far too many years to imagine that there even is a "could treat you worse" among their common retorts. When religionists for blind faith evolutionism get going it is always "fact optional" for the name-calling.

As one of your own has already responded in a post of the form "give me a source so I can show you how it is really good news for evolution and another excuse to call you more names". That sort of transparent ad hominem agenda - destroys all the incentive to provide anything other than the actual facts - and let the lack-of-research on the part of devotees to evolutionism simply stand "on its own". They can keep circling around that key value on their part -

In the mean time I have offered to "google it for you", though I hope this does not inhibit the 'lack of research' key value for any evolutionist here.
 
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BobRyan

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You have adopted a mythology that leads you to only one certain end - oblivion by Both your beliefs and that of the Bible.

You have chosen a mythology that combines the worst outcome in both views and makes it a certainty for yourself - no matter which model is correct yours or the Word of God.

If it is true that this is the very outcome you least prefer - why not be warned away from a strategy that merely serves to guarantee that very outcome EVEN in the case where the myth you have selected for yourself is pure error and the Bible is correct?

Given two options --
A. has 100% failure == oblivion. And will get you this same outcome EVEN if B is the right model.
B. has a decision point where failure can be avoided -- even if only 10% of the time.

How in the world is B not preferable to A?


I told you a non flattering detail myself. How is this not expressing awareness that evolution as a theory is not perfect? No theory is perfect. Arguably, it is impossible for any theory to be perfect. But, the fact that it isn't perfect, doesn't make every aspect, or even the majority of aspects, garbage.

Is that your defense for the Bible account of origins?

Nope, they definitely would not be eager for that. I wouldn't be either, I just said it would be preferable to the nonexistence that I think will happen when I do die. Ironically, if I believed in hell (a requirement to fear it), then I would most certainly also believe in god, and thus, if Christianity were true, would be saved from it, and have no reason to fear it.

If you chose to accept the Gospel - you would be a born again Christian -

It is that simple.

In fact, unless you are a person that believes that going to hell relates to some degree your actions beyond worship, you don't have anything to fear in regards to hell, be you a believer or not.

What are you talking about?

In the Bible "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven - but rather it is the one who DOES the will of My Father that will enter" Matt 7.

"It is not hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified" Rom 2:13

Why don't you actually choose to "read the book"?? OR is it your claim that the choice to "read" is also beyond you at this time?

NonChristians do not believe in the Christian idea of hell; why would anyone fear something they think doesn't exist?

There is an atheist "hotline" -- "The Hotline project" and the one who heads that up - helping atheists be "happier atheists" - reported last year on a talk show interview - that I happened to hear - that the most common call from atheists was "fear of hell" and it did not matter how many decades long the person had been atheist - the statistic held up.

Because in John 16 God the Holy Spirit - informs us that He "convicts the WORLD of sin" not just Christians. And in Romans 1 even the pagans are "informed" in that manner that those who do such things as they are doing are incurring judgment.

Oh, I assure you, I would much rather believe that my existence will continue in some way after I die. But, I don't believe that is the case.

Then I have good news for you. What will happen as we are told in Rev 20 - is that you will be resurrected and then judged and then cast into the lake of fire - to be tormented with "fire and brimstone in the presence of Christ and of the angels" (Rev 14:10) - but that event will not last forever because God will "destroy BOTH body and soul in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 - so then the oblivion you mention will be there even if your view of atheism is wrong and the Bible is right.

You have carefully chosen a strategy guaranteed to get you oblivion "no matter what".

I can't make myself believe it on a whim, that isn't how belief works, and if you think that is how it works, demonstrate it for me. Make yourself believe that the sun is purple. If belief is a complete conscious choice, then you should be able to do it without knowing the whole time that you are lying to yourself.

What evidence do you have that you read the Bible accepted the Gospel - chose to be born again -- but then "did not believe"??

The truth isn't always nice, it isn't always preferable, and it isn't always comforting. I am well aware that, from your perspective, there is no winning with being an agnostic atheist. I am not one because of some perceived benefit; I am one because of a lack of evidence for deities.

Is it your claim that a big wad of dust and gas will eventually "turn into a rabbit" if you wait long enough?

Is it your claim that flowers will 'naturally paint the Mona Lisa all by themselves -- since you never met Leonardo da Vinci ? -- whom you never met nor met anyone who met?)

I honestly think I would be personally better off if I was a believer; that's why I am a seeker. But, I cannot just choose to be one; without my personal standard of evidence being satisfied

All life is proof that there is a God - that is the easy part. No piles of dirt and gas will ever turn into a horse.

Also, supporting evolution is completely independent from being an atheist.

Even your own atheists peers on this board say that is not true. They claim that they used to be Christians until they accepted blind faith in evolutionism. So also did Darwin, Dawkins, Provine, Meyers claim the same thing.

So then "we were just not supposed to notice"??

I think your objectivity on that point is transparently flawed for that specific claim.
 
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BobRyan

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Much like a child claiming that they must continue to starve because "I can look on the internet and find a problem with every vegetable, every GMO fruit, every form of livestock..." - and adding 'much as I hate to starve -- this is the only thing left'.

It is very very hard to take that sort of thing seriously.
 
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BobRyan

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Meanwhile - as for "other options" --

The fate of the wicked - vs the reward of the saints.

In our future there is the 2nd coming of Revelation 19... then the 1000 years of Rev 20 (a 1000 year period of a desolated earth) and the great white throne judgment at the end of that 1000 years.
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Great Controversy: "The Controversy Ended".

At the close of the thousand years, Christ again returns to the earth. He is accompanied by the host of the redeemed and attended by a retinue of angels. As He descends in terrific majesty He bids the wicked dead arise to receive their doom. They come forth, a mighty host, numberless as the sands of the sea. What a contrast to those who were raised at the first resurrection! The righteous were clothed with immortal youth and beauty. The wicked bear the traces of disease and death.

Every eye in that vast multitude is turned to behold the glory of the Son of God. With one voice the wicked hosts exclaim: "Blessed is He that cometh in the name of the Lord!" It is not love to Jesus that inspires this utterance. The force of truth urges the words from unwilling lips. As the wicked went into their graves, so they come forth with the same enmity to Christ and the same spirit of rebellion. They are to have no new probation in which to remedy the defects of their past lives. Nothing would be gained by this. A lifetime of transgression has not softened their hearts. A second probation, were it given them, would be occupied as was the first in evading the requirements of God and exciting rebellion against Him.

Christ descends upon the Mount of Olives, whence, after His resurrection, He ascended, and where angels repeated the promise of His return. Says the prophet: "The Lord my God

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shall come, and all the saints with Thee." "And His feet shall stand in that day upon the Mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof, . . . and there shall be a very great valley." "And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one." Zechariah 14:5, 4, 9. As the New Jerusalem, in its dazzling splendor, comes down out of heaven, it rests upon the place purified and made ready to receive it, and Christ, with His people and the angels, enters the Holy City.

Now Satan prepares for a last mighty struggle for the supremacy. While deprived of his power and cut off from his work of deception, the prince of evil was miserable and dejected; but as the wicked dead are raised and he sees the vast multitudes upon his side, his hopes revive, and he determines not to yield the great controversy. He will marshal all the armies of the lost under his banner and through them endeavor to execute his plans. The wicked are Satan's captives. In rejecting Christ they have accepted the rule of the rebel leader. They are ready to receive his suggestions and to do his bidding. Yet, true to his early cunning, he does not acknowledge himself to be Satan. He claims to be the prince who is the rightful owner of the world and whose inheritance has been unlawfully wrested from him. He represents himself to his deluded subjects as a redeemer, assuring them that his power has brought them forth from their graves and that he is about to rescue them from the most cruel tyranny. The presence of Christ having been removed, Satan works wonders to support his claims. He makes the weak strong and inspires all with his own spirit and energy. He proposes to lead them against the camp of the saints and to take possession of the City of God. With fiendish exultation he points to the unnumbered millions who have been raised from the dead and declares that as their leader he is well able to overthrow the city and regain his throne and his kingdom.

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In that vast throng are multitudes of the long-lived race that existed before the Flood; men of lofty stature and giant intellect, who, yielding to the control of fallen angels, devoted all their skill and knowledge to the exaltation of themselves; men whose wonderful works of art led the world to idolize their genius, but whose cruelty and evil inventions, defiling the earth and defacing the image of God, caused Him to blot them from the face of His creation. There are kings and generals who conquered nations, valiant men who never lost a battle, proud, ambitious warriors whose approach made kingdoms tremble. In death these experienced no change. As they come up from the grave, they resume the current of their thoughts just where it ceased. They are actuated by the same desire to conquer that ruled them when they fell.

Satan consults with his angels, and then with these kings and conquerors and mighty men. They look upon the strength and numbers on their side, and declare that the army within the city is small in comparison with theirs, and that it can be overcome. They lay their plans to take possession of the riches and glory of the New Jerusalem. All immediately begin to prepare for battle. Skillful artisans construct implements of war. Military leaders, famed for their success, marshal the throngs of warlike men into companies and divisions.

At last the order to advance is given, and the countless host moves on--an army such as was never summoned by earthly conquerors, such as the combined forces of all ages since war began on earth could never equal. Satan, the mightiest of warriors, leads the van, and his angels unite their forces for this final struggle. Kings and warriors are in his train, and the multitudes follow in vast companies, each under its appointed leader. With military precision the serried ranks advance over the earth's broken and uneven surface to the City of God. By command of Jesus, the gates of the New Jerusalem are closed, and the armies of Satan surround the city and make ready for the onset.

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Great Controversy: "The Controversy Ended".
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc42.html

Now Christ again appears to the view of His enemies. Far above the city, upon a foundation of burnished gold, is a throne, high and lifted up. Upon this throne sits the Son of God, and around Him are the subjects of His kingdom. The power and majesty of Christ no language can describe, no pen portray. The glory of the Eternal Father is enshrouding His Son. The brightness of His presence fills the City of God, and flows out beyond the gates, flooding the whole earth with its radiance.
...

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In the presence of the assembled inhabitants of earth and heaven the final coronation of the Son of God takes place. And now, invested with supreme majesty and power, the King of kings pronounces sentence upon the rebels against His government and executes justice upon those who have transgressed His law and oppressed His people. Says the prophet of God: "I saw a great white throne, and Him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20:11, 12.

As soon as the books of record are opened, and the eye of Jesus looks upon the wicked, they are conscious of every sin which they have ever committed. They see just where their feet diverged from the path of purity and holiness, just how far pride and rebellion have carried them in the violation of the law of God. The seductive temptations which they encouraged by indulgence in sin, the blessings perverted, the messengers of God despised, the warnings rejected, the waves of mercy beaten back by the stubborn, unrepentant heart--all appear as if written in letters of fire.

Above the throne is revealed the cross; and like a panoramic view appear the scenes of Adam's temptation and fall, and the successive steps in the great plan of redemption. The Saviour's lowly birth; His early life of simplicity and obedience; His baptism in Jordan; the fast and temptation in the wilderness; His public ministry, unfolding to men heaven's most precious blessings; the days crowded with deeds of love and mercy, the nights of prayer and watching in the solitude of the mountains; the plottings of envy, hate, and malice which repaid His benefits; the awful, mysterious agony in Gethsemane beneath the crushing weight of the sins of the whole world; His betrayal into the hands of the murderous

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mob; the fearful events of that night of horror--the unresisting prisoner, forsaken by His best-loved disciples, rudely hurried through the streets of Jerusalem; the Son of God exultingly displayed before Annas, arraigned in the high priest's palace, in the judgment hall of Pilate, before the cowardly and cruel Herod, mocked, insulted, tortured, and condemned to die--all are vividly portrayed.

And now before the swaying multitude are revealed the final scenes--the patient Sufferer treading the path to Calvary; the Prince of heaven hanging upon the cross; ...

The awful spectacle appears just as it was. Satan, his angels, and his subjects have no power to turn from the picture of their own work. Each actor recalls the part which he performed. ..

The whole wicked world stand arraigned at the bar of God on the charge of high treason against the government of heaven. They have none to plead their cause; they are without excuse; and the sentence of eternal death is pronounced against them.

It is now evident to all that the wages of sin is not noble independence and eternal life, but slavery, ruin, and death. The wicked see what they have forfeited by their life of rebellion. The far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory was despised when offered them; but how desirable it now appears. "All this," cries the lost soul, "I might have had; but I chose to put these things far from me. Oh, strange infatuation! I have exchanged peace, happiness, and honor for wretchedness, infamy, and despair." All see that their exclusion from heaven is just. By their lives they have declared: "We will not have this Man [Jesus] to reign over us."

As if entranced, the wicked have looked upon the coronation of the Son of God. They see in His hands the tables of the divine law, the statutes which they have despised and

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transgressed. They witness the outburst of wonder, rapture, and adoration from the saved; and as the wave of melody sweeps over the multitudes without the city, all with one voice exclaim, "Great and marvelous are Thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints" (Revelation 15:3); and, falling prostrate, they worship the Prince of life.

Satan seems paralyzed as he beholds the glory and majesty of Christ. He who was once a covering cherub remembers whence he has fallen. A shining seraph, "son of the morning;" how changed, how degraded! From the council where once he was honored, he is forever excluded. He sees another now standing near to the Father, veiling His glory. He has seen the crown placed upon the head of Christ by an angel of lofty stature and majestic presence, and he knows that the exalted position of this angel might have been his.

Memory recalls the home of his innocence and purity, the peace and content that were his until he indulged in murmuring against God, ...

Before the universe has been clearly presented the great sacrifice made by the Father and the Son in man's behalf. The hour has come when Christ occupies His rightful position and is glorified above principalities and powers and every name that is named. It was for the joy that was set before Him--that He might bring many sons unto glory--that He endured the cross and despised the shame. And inconceivably great as was the sorrow and the shame, yet greater is the joy and the glory. He looks upon the redeemed, renewed in His own image, every heart bearing the perfect impress of the divine, every face reflecting the likeness of their King. He beholds in them the result of the travail of His soul, and He is satisfied. Then, in a voice that reaches the assembled multitudes of the righteous and the wicked, He declares: "Behold the purchase of My blood! For these I suffered, for these I died, that they might dwell in My presence throughout eternal ages." And the song of praise ascends from the white-robed ones about the throne: "Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honor, and glory, and blessing." Revelation 5:12.

Notwithstanding that Satan has been constrained to acknowledge God's justice and to bow to the supremacy of Christ, his character remains unchanged. The spirit of rebellion, like a mighty torrent, again bursts forth. Filled with frenzy, he determines not to yield the great controversy. The time has come for a last desperate struggle against the King

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of heaven. He rushes into the midst of his subjects and endeavors to inspire them with his own fury and arouse them to instant battle. But of all the countless millions whom he has allured into rebellion, there are none now to acknowledge his supremacy. His power is at an end. The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them.... 673
 
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New Great Controversy: "The Controversy Ended".
http://www.whiteestate.org/books/gc/gc42.html

Saith the Lord: "Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God; behold, therefore I will bring strangers upon thee, the terrible of the nations: and they shall draw their swords against the beauty of thy wisdom, and they shall defile thy brightness. They shall bring thee down to the pit." "I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. . . . I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. . . . I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. . . . Thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." Ezekiel 28:6-8, 16-19.

"Every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire." "The indignation of the Lord is upon all nations, and His fury upon all their armies: He hath utterly destroyed them, He hath delivered them to the slaughter." "Upon the wicked He shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Isaiah 9:5; 34:2; Psalm 11:6, margin. Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething

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lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8.

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." ... His (Satan's) punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. After all have perished who fell by his deceptions, he is still to live and suffer on. In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah.

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. "The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they [the righteous] break forth into singing." Isaiah 14:7. And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. "The voice of a great multitude," "as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings," is heard, saying: "Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth." Revelation 19:6.

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the Holy City. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, He is to His people both a sun and a shield. Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.
 
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