Christianity without Paul

[joshua 1 9]

The letter vs. the spirit is talking about two different approaches to following the law, not about obeying God vs. not obeying God. Do you obey the law legalistically or do you obey the law with regard to its intent? When the law is not obeyed according to the Spirit, then it gets perverted into legalism, which kills, but that was not the way that it was intended to to be followed. However, when the law is obeying according to the Spirit, then it become a tree of life for those who take hold of her. God did not give the law to Moses and the Israelites to kill him, but so that they would have life abundantly.

One day I was reading the 119 psalm and I was very surprised to see David say: "119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved;" I thought WOW David LOVED the commandments? How can that be? Then I began to understand that the commandments reflect God's love for us and His desire to protect us and to give us the best of what He has for us. This is the way of blessing, prosperity, health and healing.

 

[joshua 1 9]

It's true that women in ministry is an issue because of Paul. It's only because of Paul and his disciple Luke that we know there were women who were fully active in the ministry. Without Paul and his disciple Luke, there would be no question that women should not be active in the ministry.

Did you see the movie Yentil? Paul did more to liberate women. Older women are to teach younger women, younger women are to teach the children. If they keep busy with the ministry that God gives them then they would not have time to do what God is not calling them to do. If they want to address the congression then the Bible tells us to always be ready to give an account of the hope that is in us. 1Pet 3:15

 

[Soyeong]

One day I was reading the 119 psalm and I was very surprised to see David say: "119:48 My hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved;" I thought WOW David LOVED the commandments? How can that be? Then I began to understand that the commandments reflect God's love for us and His desire to protect us and to give us the best of what He has for us. This is the way of blessing, prosperity, health and healing.

Amen, Psalms 119 has very high praise for the law, Psalms 19 is also a good one, and according Psalms 1:1-2 David delighted in God's law. Then you read Romans 7:22 and see that Paul also delighted in God's law and realize that Paul was in agreement with David and also had a very high opinion of God's law. Once you interpret Paul through that lense, he makes a lot more sense and the Bible has much more continuity. It almost seems bizarre now trying to convince other Christians that they should likewise delight in obeying the commands of the God that they follow and the example set by the Savior they follow.

 

[Goatee]

It's not always clear what your understanding is when you just list a verse. The law does not require all Gentiles to become circumcised and certainly not in order to become saved, so Paul was upholding the law by rejecting those who were wanting to require all Gentiles to do that. Saying that you don't need to obey God in order to become saved is very different from saying that you don't need to obey God because obedience to God was never given as a requirement in order to become saved in the first place.

None Jews, as we know, did not need to get circumcised. This was the 'old law' of the 'old Covenant' from the 'Old Testament'.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Amen, Psalms 119 has very high praise for the law, Psalms 19 is also a good one, and according Psalms 1:1-2 David delighted in God's law. Then you read Romans 7:22 and see that Paul also delighted in God's law and realize that Paul was in agreement with David and also had a very high opinion of God's law. Once you interpret Paul through that lense, he makes a lot more sense and the Bible has much more continuity. It almost seems bizarre now trying to convince other Christians that they should likewise delight in obeying the commands of the God that they follow and the example set by the Savior they follow.

People will base what they believe on one verse. For me I always ask what does Moses say about it. For example Peter says: "day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day" so then I want to see what Moses says and we read: "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night." So then we look at the word Love, Agape in the Greek and we see the word is used 116 times. Then I look at the word: Law (Noms in the Greek) we see the word is used 196 times in the NT. Then you talk about Psalm 19 where the first half talks about the Law of God as it relates to the Universe. These are the natural laws of Science and then the second half of Psalm 19 talks about the Law in the Bible given through Moses. This Psalm shows that there is NOTHING in all of science that does not point to God. From the beginning to the end all of Creation gives a testimony of the Creator. So Paul tells us that they are without excuse. Clearly they strain out the gnat and swallow the camel. God gives us law to regulate the universe we live in and God gives us laws to regulate our lives. As well as commandments, precepts, ordinances and so on. Even Psalm 19 tells us about the "Bridegroom coming out of his chamber". We know the Bride will be spotless without blemish, she will follow every precept and ordinance. There will be no lawlessness in her. She will give a perfect testimony for God so they will be without excuse. They can not blame anyone but themselves. Just like the Universe gives a perfect testimony for God.

 

[brinny]

Then you are a candidate for this "right or wrong" experiment.....

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LOL! If i was him, i'd be sooooooo mad

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Religion divides people and quenches the spirit. I just cant go down that road anymore.

So which road are you going to go down?

Eze 21:21
For the king of Babylon will stop at the fork in the road, at the junction of the two roads, to seek an omen:
He will cast lots with arrows, he will consult his idols, he will examine the liver.

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[Extraneous]

So which road are you going to go down?

Eze 21:21
For the king of Babylon will stop at the fork in the road, at the junction of the two roads, to seek an omen:
He will cast lots with arrows, he will consult his idols, he will examine the liver.

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I follow whats in my heart. Is that right or wrong?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I follow whats in my heart. Is that right or wrong?

I would say that is right, since that is what YAHWEH looks at:

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them.
And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Jeremiah 17:10
I YAHWEH, searching the heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.
[Reve 2:23]

Reve 2:23
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts
and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye.
[Jeremiah 17:10]



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[Extraneous]

Yea, i seeketh the path least traveled

Matthew 7:14King James Version (KJV)

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

 

[Extraneous]

I would say that is right, since that is what YAHWEH looks at:

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them. And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

Jeremiah 17:10
I YAHWEH, searching the heart, examining the affections/kidneys/ 03629 kilyah
and giving to man ways of him, as fruit of his doings.
[Reve 2:23]

Reve 2:23
And the offspring of her I shall be killing in death,
and shall be knowing all the Out-Calleds that I am the One searching kidneys/nefrouV <3510> and hearts
and I shall be giving to Ye each according to the works of Ye.
[Jeremiah 17:10]

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lol, the tin man. My heart is flesh, thats for sure

 

[Soyeong]

None Jews, as we know, did not need to get circumcised. This was the 'old law' of the 'old Covenant' from the 'Old Testament'.

We must obey God rather than man, so if God had told non-Jews to become circumcised, and the Jerusalem Council had told non-Jews to not become circumcised, then we should obey God rather than the Jerusalem Council, but the Jerusalem Council did not required non-Jews did not need to get circumcised precisely because God's law never required them to do so. They could not add or subtract from God's law (Deuteronomy 4:2), so they had no authority to countermand God and tell Gentiles not to obey Him, nor did the do so. Obedience to God's law is the way to identify with God, not the way to identify with Jews.

God is holy, righteous, and good, so He has such a conduct, and His law is holy, righteous, and good (Romans 7:12) because it is a reflection of His character and it is his instructions for how to have such a conduct. So the way to act in line with God's character and to have such a conduct existed from the beginning and exists independently of any covenant, and did not change between the Old and the New Covenants or any other covenant that God has made. Even if God had made not covenants with man, it would still be to our advantage to have such a conduct.

 

[Soyeong]

I follow whats in my heart. Is that right or wrong?

Which path will you take?

Jeremiah 6:16-19 Thus says the Lord: “Stand by the roads, and look, and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is; and walk in it, and find rest for your souls. But they said, ‘We will not walk in it.’ 17 I set watchmen over you, saying, ‘Pay attention to the sound of the trumpet!’ But they said, ‘We will not pay attention.’ 18 Therefore hear, O nations, and know, O congregation, what will happen to them. 19 Hear, O earth; behold, I am bringing disaster upon this people, the fruit of their devices, because they have not paid attention to my words; and as for my law, they have rejected it.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

LittleLambofJesus said: ↑
I would say that is right, since that is what YAHWEH looks at:..........

Ezekiel 11:19
"And I will give them one heart, and put a new spirit within them.
And I will take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,

lol, the tin man.
My heart is flesh, thats for sure

Mine too.

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I am just glad I don't have to have one of these:

Mechanical heart versus normal heart:

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[Goatee]

Matthew 5:17
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

 

[Soyeong]

Matthew 5:17
17 “Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.

Again, it would be nice if you would add you understanding of the verses that you quote. To fulfill the law is a rabbinic technical term found in other Jewish literature that refers to demonstrating a full or correct understanding of how to obey the law either by words or by actions. Love fulfills the whole law (Galatians 5:14) because it is essentially God's instruction manual for how to love, and everyone who has loved their neighbor since Moses has fulfilled the law, so it was not a unique event done by Jesus to do away with the law. In Matthew 5, Jesus was about to come against what the teachers of the law of his day were saying about the law, which his audience might think was undermining the law, so he assured them that he came not to abolish the law, but to fulfill it, which he then proceeded to do six times by teaching how to correctly understand and obey the law.

 

[Soyeong]

Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

We are not longer under the law, but which law is Paul referring to? He mentions a number of different laws:

1.) The Law of God (Romans 3:31, 7:22-25, 8:7)
2.) The Law of Sin (Romans 7:23-25)
3.) The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 8:2)
4.) The Law of the Spirit of Life (Romans 8:2)
5.) The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)
6.) The Law of Righteousness (Romans 9:31)
7.) The Law of Christ (1 Corinthians 9:21)

In order for sin to no longer be our master, that would mean that at one time we were under sin. The error comes in not understanding that the first half of Romans 6:14 is talking about the same thing as the second half. This law which we are no longer under has something to do with no longer being under sin. If Paul was referring to the Law of God in verse 14, then that would mean that Paul was equating the Law of God with being sin, but in Romans 7:7 he clearly stated that the Law of God is not sin. Rather, it is through the Law of God that we define sin (1 John 3:4), so the Law of Sin would be instructions against following the Law of God. It is sin that leads to death (Genesis 2:16, Romans 5:12), so following the Law of Sin leads to death, or the Law of Sin and Death. According to Romans 6:8-9 death no longer has dominion over us, so in the context of not being under the law, sin and death no longer have dominion over us. So in Romans 6:14, Paul was introducing the concept of the Law of Sin and Death and was not speaking about the Law of God. When we come into faith, our Messiah's death allows us to be free from the bondage of sin and to overcome death, thus we are no longer under the Law of Sin and Death, but under grace. The Law of Sin is the exact opposite of the Law of God because sin is breaking the law:

Romans 7:21-23 So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death.

Grace is receiving forgiveness for sin, which is breaking the Law of God, and sin leads to death, so being under grace means that we are free from the bondage of sin and death that result from it. If there is no Law of God, then there is no sin, and if there is no sin, then there is no need for grace. To not be under the Law of God is to be under the Law of Sin.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Romans 6:14 For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

We are not longer under the law, but which law is Paul referring to? He mentions a number of different laws:....................

Grace is receiving forgiveness for sin, which is breaking the Law of God, and sin leads to death, so being under grace means that we are free from the bondage of sin and death that result from it. If there is no Law of God, then there is no sin, and if there is no sin, then there is no need for grace. To not be under the Law of God is to be under the Law of Sin.

:Howdy.
Yes, we are quite aware of the views held by the Sabbatarian SDSs and MJs concerning the Law and why a special GT sub board was created specifically for that.


http://www.christianforums.com/forums/sabbath-and-the-law.1131/
Sabbath and The Law
Sabbath day worship and keeping the law

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Delivered to the redneck Christians in Texas:

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[expos4ever]

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I believe that Paul and Jesus are generally on the same page, although I am open to counterarguments. I think the "added-value" (I shudder at using that "business" term) Paul brings is his careful analysis of how the story of Jesus comprises a surprising, yet highly appropriate, climax to the covenant story of Israel. I believe that Jesus only hinted at this (or spoke rather cryptically of it).

 

[BobRyan]

How much of Christianity is Paul? Is the faith as we know it made up mostly of Paul and his teachings?

Where would we be without Paul?

I have wondered about Paul. He does seem to take up a large part of the NT in his writings etc. Did he have his own agenda? Was his teachings very different from those of Jesus?

I ask these questions because i am curious to know if others have asked these questions and what answers people give. I for one are very much inexperienced in Biblical matters but i am trying to learn more and more as time goes on.

On the other hand -- since scripture is the "Word of God" we are not really talking about the "wisdom of Paul" but rather how well God is able to communicate His Word. Turns out - He is very capable.