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Can the Interpretive Approach of Reformed Protestantism lead out of Christianity?

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rakovsky

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That's not it. FWIW, I questioned whether you should move to question #2 after reposting your #1 question in its original form...even though admitting, as you did here, that it was an incorrect statement of the Reformed view. I assume that the series of questions leads to a conclusion that is based upon the premise of each of them having been correct as first stated.
I am not sure that I am "admitting" that Q.1 is "incorrect", since I as I understand it, the food itself is not considered to have Christ's presence "in" it, and thus the food itself is only a symbol. It's true that it acts as a vehicle in the rite, but as far as it's composition, in my understanding of the Reformed view, it doesn't contain the presence of the body itself, for the reasons I gave.

But after your suggestion, I edited the First, Opening Question in the first message of the thread to reflect some things Hedrick explained. But I don't want to keep going back and editing the opening thread either. During the thread, you may correct my understanding if they are mistaken. That is what the thread is for. My ideas could be wrong, and I am coming here to discuss them.
 
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Albion

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I am not sure that I am "admitting" that Q.1 is "incorrect", since I as I understand it, the food itself is not considered to have Christ's presence "in" it, and thus the food itself is only a symbol. It's true that it acts as a vehicle in the rite, but as far as it's composition, in my understanding of the Reformed view, it doesn't contain the presence of the body itself, for the reasons I gave.

But after your suggestion, I edited the First, Opening Question in the first message of the thread to reflect some things Hedrick explained. But I don't want to keep going back and editing the opening thread either. During the thread, you may correct my understanding if they are mistaken. That is what the thread is for. My ideas could be wrong, and I am coming here to discuss them.
What you say seems good, but my point was not just about the wording of Question #1 for its own sake. It looks as though you are leading us through a series of questions which, if answered in the way you expect they ought to be answered, will bring us to some unavoidable conclusion. But if any of the answers along the way aren't as you anticipate, wouldn't that negate the projected conclusion?

Well, that's my point, and you can do with it as you wish. I understand that you're anxious to get on with what you have in mind to do, so I won't intrude further and you needn't reply to this post either. :)
 
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JM

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From here, you are free to respond to my comments above. For my part, I will move to the Second Question:

(2) Does Protestantism have a clear, direct basis in those early traditions and writings to reject the special respect and claimed miraculous properties of holy relics?

We believe in the miraculous but (most of us) believe the gifts have ceased and have no place in worship. We confine our beliefs to scripture and scripture alone. To get a better idea of our worldview I'll quote an old confession.

"The light of nature shews that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all; is just, good and doth good unto all; and is therefore to be feared, loved, praised, called upon, trusted in, and served, with all the heart and all the soul, and with all the might. But the acceptable way of worshipping the true God, is instituted by himself, and so limited by his own revealed will, that he may not be worshipped according to the imagination and devices of men, nor the suggestions of Satan, under any visible representations, or any other way not prescribed in the Holy Scriptures." ( Jeremiah 10:7; Mark 12:33; Deuteronomy 12:32; Exodus 20:4-6 ) - London Baptist Confession of Faith

For us Reformed folks we look for a positive command given by God to instruct us in how we are to approach Him and worship Him. Israel was instructed by God how to be His people and we still believe this today. Worship was given by revelation under the Old Mosaic Covenant and we believe this continues today, we worship God in spirit and in truth. This is called the Regulative Principle of Worship. It might help if you think about it like this; the Orthodox use some aspects of the Bible, scriptural images are used, to create a liturgy. This liturgy does include biblical elements but also includes elements from other sources. The design or model for worship is without biblical mandate. Protestants on the other had attempt to define our worship by scripture alone. The ideal is design was given by God, our model for worshiping Jesus Christ is scripture and we reject anything that prevents us from approaching Him in the manner He prescribes.

The Bible is one book. One revelation from God to mankind. With this in mind read Deuteronomy 12 which is a good display of God's anger toward those who worship Him according to their own devices.

21. If the place which the LORD thy God hath chosen to put his name there be too far from thee, then thou shalt kill of thy herd and of thy flock, which the LORD hath given thee, as I have commanded thee, and thou shalt eat in thy gates whatsoever thy soul lusteth after. 22. Even as the roebuck and the hart is eaten, so thou shalt eat them: the unclean and the clean shall eat of them alike. 23. Only be sure that thou eat not the blood: for the blood is the life; and thou mayest not eat the life with the flesh. 24. Thou shalt not eat it; thou shalt pour it upon the earth as water. 25. Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, when thou shalt do that which is right in the sight of the LORD. 26. Only thy holy things which thou hast, and thy vows, thou shalt take, and go unto the place which the LORD shall choose: 27. And thou shalt offer thy burnt offerings, the flesh and the blood, upon the altar of the LORD thy God: and the blood of thy sacrifices shall be poured out upon the altar of the LORD thy God, and thou shalt eat the flesh. 28. Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest that which is good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God. 29. When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; 30. Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou inquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. 31. Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. 32. What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

v. 1.-2 destroy Temples belonging to false religion
v. 4-19 worship is prescribed where God reveals His name, …the Tabernacle
v. 4 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way.
v. 8 “You shall not do according to all that we are doing here today, everyone doing whatever is right in his own eyes,”
v. 20-21 the revealed will of God regulates worship
v. 29-21 we are not to be influenced by culture
v.31 “You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.”
v. 32 “Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.”

Where am I going with all this?

Well, the gift of healing was not commanded, prescribed, or revealed as an element of worship. The gift of healing was performed by God through sinful men, described in scripture and used to fulfill the prophecy of Joel so that unbelieving Jews would come to Christ. (1 Cor. 1)

In Acts 19:11-12, it says:
And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.


At face value, this suggests that you could actually take clothes from a holy person like Paul and they could serve to cure illnesses or drive out demons.

This is a record of a specific miracle performed by God through Paul. What we do not see is a universal application to all believers. We also see a difference in the gift Paul was given as the New Testament canon came to a close. The gifts of healing were tied to the Apostolic ministry as promised in Joel 2 (quoted in Acts 2 applied to the church) but faded with time. The Old Covenant was being replaced by "A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." (Hebrews 8) In Acts 28 Paul was able to heal, all "which had diseases in the island, came, and were healed" but could not heal Timothy (1 Tim. 5; Gal. 4), Epaphroditus (no outcome given in scripture) and Trophimus (2 Tim. 4). Those he could not heal were ill after the closing of Acts 28.

Sinful man has turned the healing of God into a superstition attached to relics and has carried on the practice for hundreds of years. But be warned, "Man’s mind is like a store of idolatry and superstition; so much so that if a man believes his own mind it is certain that he will forsake God and forge some idol in his own brain" - John Calvin

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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Calvin complained about relics in his Treaties on Relics. A fella online made note of a few.

Imagine yourself on a tour of these famous sites:
  • In Geneva (Calvin’s home town) you could see the brain of St Peter which sat in a shrine. It was considered blasphemy to doubt its authenticity. It turned out to be “a piece of pumice-stone”. p224
  • The very blood of Jesus was said to be on show at more than 100 places. At Rochelle the story went that Nicodemus captured a few drops of it in his glove. It survived like that for 1500 years? No problem, when you can attach a miracle to every incredible story. In Rome they were clever. The Church of St John of the Lateran even had it mixed with water to show that it came from him whilst upon the cross.
  • The manger Jesus was laid in as a baby was on display at the Church of Madonna Maggiore at Rome while his swaddling clothes were across town at St Paul’s.
  • Mary’s breast milk (I kid you not) was preserved in numerous churches. So many in fact it led Calvin to another of his famous hyperboles.
Source

I'm sorry, but this is just milking a superstition for filthy lucre. It was a universal problem in the East and West.
 
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JM

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I'll refrain from posting in the other thread you have going for two reasons; 1) I just don't have time to go point by point, too busy at work 2) this thread is moving a lot slower which will give me time to respond on my day off (Friday)

I'm thankful for your questions. I've been spending my free time before bed reading up on the subject and thoroughly convinced of the Reformed view, more so now than ever. Having to revisit the early church writings and confessions have been a soul pleasing delight!

Sola Scriptura!

jm
 
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rakovsky

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