Oregon Standoff

[Jane_the_Bane]

Then why hasn't Western Europe turned Communist?

Or Northern Europe, for that matter.

Leninism and its "descendants"/offshoots are HORRIBLE political philosophies, utterly dysfunctional and based on a faulty application of Marxist theory.
To insist that this is the only alternative to our current system is as laughable as exclusivist claims made by communists themselves. It's not "either/or". Neither is also an option.

 

[smaneck]

Or Northern Europe, for that matter.

Leninism and its "descendants"/offshoots are HORRIBLE political philosophies, utterly dysfunctional and based on a faulty application of Marxist theory.
To insist that this is the only alternative to our current system is as laughable as exclusivist claims made by communists themselves. It's not "either/or". Neither is also an option.

I agree. The best economy is a mixed one. Even Bismark figured that one out.

 

[dlamberth]

Socialism is just a step away from communism, it doesn't take much to step over the line.

I know that's what I've been told and believed most of my life, but I know better now.

 

[dlamberth]

I agree. The best economy is a mixed one. Even Bismark figured that one out.

For the better good of a society as a whole, I do not believe that capitalism works with out an injection of socialism where needed. Capitalism is just not made to care about those in need or to care about the earth. It's soul purpose is profit. Social programs tackle the hole that Capitalism is not able to fill.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

For the better good of a society as a whole, I do not believe that capitalism works with out an injection of socialism where needed. Capitalism is just not made to care about those in need or to care about the earth. It's soul purpose is profit. Social programs tackle the hole that Capitalism is not able to fill.

I do wonder, though, whether charity or social programs aren't just masking the horrors of the economic system we still erroneously regard as "without any alternative" (to cite Chancellor Merkel).
Feeding the downtrodden and exploited might still their hunger, but it won't do anything to remedy the conditions that put them in dire straits to begin with.

 

[Eryk]

I do wonder, though, whether charity or social programs aren't just masking the horrors of the economic system we still erroneously regard as "without any alternative" (to cite Chancellor Merkel).
Feeding the downtrodden and exploited might still their hunger, but it won't do anything to remedy the conditions that put them in dire straits to begin with.

Philanthropy is not enough. Social Democracy is the cure for these problems. It's better than deregulation and privatization, and it's better than a planned economy. It's for people on the left (like me) who don't think that the overthrow of capitalism is desirable or feasible. I like all these things about the center-left: the absence of fanaticism, the practical sensibility, the competent governing, and the pragmatism necessary to function in the real political world. It will be a world with problems, but it will have to be good enough. Trying to implement utopia is how you get dystopia.

And Sanders is a moderate too. He isn't trying to nationalize anything. He is using "socialist" as an umbrella term, like the Socialist International, an organization of mostly center-left parties.

Anything else is failure. I don't have to explain why authoritarian communism is a bad idea. Everything else on the far left is useless. Read about the chaos of the workers councils in Yugoslavia. Anarchist workers in 1930s Spain gained ownership of businesses and started to act like owners, and they enriched themselves. This is the way the world is.

 

[smaneck]

I do wonder, though, whether charity or social programs aren't just masking the horrors of the economic system we still erroneously regard as "without any alternative" (to cite Chancellor Merkel).
Feeding the downtrodden and exploited might still their hunger, but it won't do anything to remedy the conditions that put them in dire straits to begin with.

I agree. In some ways it perpetuates a system where employers don't have to pay their employees a living wage if they can count on it being supplemented by Food Stamps, Section 8 housing and Medicaid. Section 8 housing (and I say this as a landlord) helps keep rents high beyond what the market would otherwise bare. In the US Food Stamps were never intended to help the poor they were intended to help the farmers.

 

[Jane_the_Bane]

Germany (in its desire to emulate the USA and jump onto the neoliberal/neoclassicist bandwagon) introduced "Aufstockerlöhne" as part of its dismantling of the social market model: basically, it means that people who do not earn enough money with a full-time job to even reach the existential minimum will receive the difference to reach the poverty line (but not above that) from the state. Which in turn means that companies and employers are invited to lower their wages and have society as a whole pay the difference.

Socialism for the rich, in a nutshell.

Capitalism relies on two big lies to maintain the impression that it is in any way just: equal chances and justice based on performance. Both are reduced to absurdity the moment most wealth is inherited, along with connections, access to higher education, etc.

 

[smaneck]

Socialism for the rich, in a nutshell.

Capitalism relies on two big lies to maintain the impression that it is in any way just: equal chances and justice based on performance. Both are reduced to absurdity the moment most wealth is inherited, along with connections, access to higher education, etc.

Except I don't call this capitalism, I call it corporatism.

 

[withwonderingawe]

First let me say I disagree with the men who carried guns into the Oregon stand off, should have chained themselves to the white house fence or something, no guns were needed they were just asking for trouble. BUT watch this video, he does not appear to be armed at all here and his hands are up (for real this time). (But maybe the video is fake, oh who knows these days)

http://thewashingtonstandard.com/en...-point-out-agent-that-took-first-shot-at-him/

okay I found this longer one;

He does make a run for it but then has to swerve and ends up in the snow. He gets out of the car and runs through the snow but knows he is surrounded, he is unarmed, his hands are up in the air, he is surrendering. They shoot white men in the back too!

 

[jacknife]

Selectively edited would be the term I would use, the video cuts out the chase and the part where he had his hands up then reached for his left side where he kept a loaded weapon. i'm not positive I'm allowed to link the full video here directly. P.S. never trust anyone who uses "call of duty" in thier name just don't. But thier is a thread on it http://www.christianforums.com/threads/another-hands-up-dont-shoot-lie.7930296/#post-69199081

 

[smaneck]

First let me say I disagree with the men who carried guns into the Oregon stand off, should have chained themselves to the white house fence or something, no guns were needed they were just asking for trouble. BUT watch this video, he does not appear to be armed at all here and his hands are up (for real this time). (But maybe the video is fake, oh who knows these days)

http://thewashingtonstandard.com/en...-point-out-agent-that-took-first-shot-at-him/

It is not the video which is fake but the sound track. How does she know the Lavoy shouted out "He shot me!" There is no sound track to that video. What I saw on that video is that at first Lavoy raises his hands and then his hands reach for his pocket. That's when he is shot. There is a 9mm pistol in that pocket. Bundy says Lavoy was cooperating but the truth is that he had already been stopped once and ordered out of the truck. Instead of leaving he gunned on the accelerator and led the police on a high speed chase. It is when he hits the next road block that he ends up in the snow bank.

http://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...of-oregon-occupier-lavoy-finicum-611869251823

I can't take seriously anything on that website especially when they are presenting the attack of Muslims Sweden by masked men as an attempt to win back their train station.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Selectively edited would be the term I would use, the video cuts out the chase and the part where he had his hands up then reached for his left side where he kept a loaded weapon. i'm not positive I'm allowed to link the full video here directly. P.S. never trust anyone who uses "call of duty" in thier name just don't. But thier is a thread on it http://www.christianforums.com/threads/another-hands-up-dont-shoot-lie.7930296/#post-69199081

Need the autopsy to see if there was a real first shot, I agree with that name kind of silly.

 

[withwonderingawe]

The whole thing was brought up in Sunday School yesterday, we were talking about the church of the devil. They all seemed to think these men had joined it. No sympathy at all for them.

 

[dlamberth]

The whole thing was brought up in Sunday School yesterday, we were talking about the church of the devil. They all seemed to think these men had joined it. No sympathy at all for them.

Though I truly do believe that the Bundy gang have desecrated a sacred place, there's no way I could go as far as saying that they were of the church of the devil. Where I have no sympathy is in how they have divided a community, a community that has worked hard to come up with the "High Desert Partnership" in a collaborative undertaking.

Check out the link: http://highdesertpartnership.org/

 

[smaneck]

Need the autopsy to see if there was a real first shot, I agree with that name kind of silly.

I don't doubt that the FBI shot first. The issue is whether Finnicum was reaching for his gun when he was shot. If he was, then the shooting was justified.

 

[smaneck]

The whole thing was brought up in Sunday School yesterday, we were talking about the church of the devil. They all seemed to think these men had joined it. No sympathy at all for them.

In any case, I'm not sure there are anymore Mormons up there, except maybe Jeff Banta who no one seems to know anything about.
The Feds should go out an arrest Clive Bundy while they have a chance.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Though I truly do believe that the Bundy gang have desecrated a sacred place, there's no way I could go as far as saying that they were of the church of the devil. Where I have no sympathy is in how they have divided a community, a community that has worked hard to come up with the "High Desert Partnership" in a collaborative undertaking.

Check out the link: http://highdesertpartnership.org/

The "Church of the devil" is kind of an idiom

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil..." 1Nephi 14

Basically it means anyone who fights against God, if you love God and obey his commandments you belong to the Church of the Lamb but if you go against him, cause contention and bring guns to a protest then your on the devil's side. A lot of Mormons are upset at these guys, we have hard enough time trying to convince people we're pretty normal without nuts like this running around. The leaders of the Church asked them to back down and they haven't so most of us wish they would just go away.



















c

 

[smaneck]

The "Church of the devil" is kind of an idiom

"Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil..." 1Nephi 14

Odd that the Book of Mormon would use the term 'church.' Church is derived from the Greek word Ecclesia. The Hebrew people didn't have churches.

A lot of Mormons are upset at these guys, we have hard enough time trying to convince people we're pretty normal without nuts like this running around. The leaders of the Church asked them to back down and they haven't so most of us wish they would just go away.

That I can understand. But this kind of dualism makes me nervous. As Abdu'l-Baha said:


“Throughout past centuries each system of religious belief has boasted of its own superiority and excellence, abasing and scorning the validity of all others. Each has proclaimed its own belief as the light and all others as darkness. Religionists have considered the world of humanity as two trees: one divine and merciful, the other satanic; they themselves the branches, leaves and fruit of the divine tree and all others who differ from them in belief the product of the tree which is satanic. Therefore, sedition and warfare, bloodshed and strife have been continuous among them. The greatest cause of human alienation has been religion because each party has considered the belief of the other as anathema and deprived of the mercy of God.”

He went on to say:

"God is equally compassionate and kind to all the leaves, branches and fruit of this tree. Therefore, there is no satanic tree whatever-- Satan being a product of human minds and of instinctive human tendencies toward error. God alone is Creator, and all are creatures of His might. Therefore, we must love mankind as His creatures, realizing that all are growing upon the tree of His mercy, servants of His omnipotent will and manifestations of His good pleasure. Even though we find a defective branch or leaf upon this tree of humanity or an imperfect blossom, it, nevertheless, belongs to this tree and not to another. Therefore, it is our duty to protect and cultivate this tree until it reaches perfection. If we examine its fruit and find it imperfect, we must strive to make it perfect. There are souls in the human world who are ignorant; we must make them knowing. Some growing upon the tree are weak and ailing; we must assist them toward health and recovery. If they are as infants in development,
we must minister to them until they attain maturity. We should never detest and shun them as objectionable and unworthy. We must treat them with honor, respect and kindness; for God has created them and not Satan. They are not manifestations of the wrath of God but evidences of His divine favor. God, the Creator, has endowed them with physical, mental and spiritual qualities that they may seek to know and do His will; therefore, they are not objects of His wrath and condemnation. In brief, all humanity must be looked upon with love, kindness and respect; for what we behold in them are none other than the signs and traces of God Himself.”




















c[/QUOTE]

 

[withwonderingawe]

I don't doubt that the FBI shot first. The issue is whether Finnicum was reaching for his gun when he was shot. If he was, then the shooting was justified.

My daughter and I looked at that several times over and it does appear he was reaching for a gun, if it is holstered on his left hip.