Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[patricius79]

@ patricius79

Tradition is not scripture.....

Hi n2thelight

I think that Tradition (the Word of God) includes Scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

You keep saying that oral tradition is on par with scripture and it's not

The Church believes that the oral Word and the written Word are one.

Puts me in the mind of if I told a story to some one and they in turn told some one else,well by the time it gets to the 20th person the story is not the same as I first told it...

I think that Sacred Tradition employs writing--both in Scripture and outside of Scripture--to assist in the miraculous process of passing on the Word of God.

Like I said how do I check your traditions?

We make sure that they are what the Church teaches.

Is it because the Church(cc)said so...

Yes. Luke 10:16, Ephesians 1:22, Ephesians 1:23, Matthew 16:18, Matthew 16:19, 1 Timothy 3:15

How many evil Popes have you all had did you trust all of them?

I think that usually the Popes have been good, and very many saints. Some have been bad, but they didn't change Church teaching.

And what were the people suppose to do being ruled over by an evil Pope,something under God that important,would never happen

Though they are against His will, I think that God allows scandals to bring a greater good out of them.

I mean heck,we have people now that can't even follow the Word,without a lot of differences of what said scripture meant..And then you'll come along and add traditions to it....(Oral)

I think that Sola Scriptura itself has led to many disagreements about doctrine. I think that Catholic Tradition helps us to discern which doctrines are true.

For example, the teaching that Mary is the Mother of God affirms that Jesus is God.

Peace,

Pat

 

[Aldebaran]

The term "Catholic" isn't used in Scripture--nor is "The New Testament" or even explicit reference to Trinity--but the Catholic Church is the historic, visible Church founded by Jesus Christ, and it was commonly called "the Catholic Church" by the 100s. The Catholic Church defined the doctrine of the Trinity, the Hypostatic Union, and the N.T. Canon.

This brings up a good question. If the term "Catholic Church" wasn't around until the 100s, then when did the idea of going through Mary to get to Jesus get started? It certainly didn't start with the ministry of Jesus, Peter or Paul or any of the other writers of the NT books. IOW, it wasn't around from the beginning. Why do you think it had to be added later on? Why didn't Jesus think to mention anything about it? Same for Paul or the other apostles. Seems like it would be a pretty important thing to mention.

 

[Aldebaran]

Hey, patricius79, could I get a few 2 Thessalonians 2:15 ? I've had a rough day.

This wasn't directed toward you, and it's not the same copy/paste statement he usually uses, but hopefully it will have the same affect:

Hi n2thelight

I think that Tradition (the Word of God) includes Scripture (2 Thessalonians 2:15)

 

[Aldebaran]

I think that usually the Popes have been good, and very many saints. Some have been bad, but they didn't change Church teaching.

There's another thing about catholic teaching. They change the meaning of words. In the bible, a saint is someone who has accepted Christ and is saved. In catholic "tradition", it's something else entirely. According to the bible, saints are made by Christ. According to catholics, they are made by men.

 

[patricius79]

This brings up a good question. If the term "Catholic Church" wasn't around until the 100s, then when did the idea of going through Mary to get to Jesus get started?

It has to do with the development of doctrine. Everything was passed on by the death of the last Apostle, but not explicitly in writing. The Bible tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Luke 10:16.. The Bible doesn't refer to a "New Testament" or tell us which books are in it. Nor does it even refer to "the Trinity" or there being "One God in Three Persons", or Christ having two natures and two wills. The Catholic Church defined these things centuries after the N.T. was written. But these things were referred to implicitly in Scripture--which tells us that Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit-- and handed on orally through the Catholic Church, like the idea of going to Jesus through Mary.

 

[patricius79]

There's another thing about catholic teaching. They change the meaning of words. In the bible, a saint is someone who has accepted Christ and is saved. In catholic "tradition", it's something else entirely. According to the bible, saints are made by Christ. According to catholics, they are made by men.

The Bible refers to all who are holy as saints, but says that sanctification is a process. Those that are in Heaven are, of course, the holiest. But the Mother of God surpasses them all beyond measure.

 

[Aldebaran]

It has to do with the development of doctrine. Everything was passed on by the death of the last Apostle, but not explicitly in writing. The Bible tells us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Luke 10:16.. The Bible doesn't refer to a "New Testament" or tell us which books are in it. Nor does it even refer to "the Trinity" or there being "One God in Three Persons", or Christ having two natures and two wills. The Catholic Church defined these things centuries after the N.T. was written. But these things were referred to implicitly in Scripture--which tells us that Mary conceived Jesus Christ with the Holy Spirit-- and handed on orally through the Catholic Church, like the idea of going to Jesus through Mary.

Handed on? Where did it originate in the first place?

 

[Aldebaran]

The Bible refers to all who are holy as saints, but says that sanctification is a process. Those that are in Heaven are, of course, the holiest. But the Mother of God surpasses them all beyond measure.

So it's a process. Then where do those who have asked Christ (directly) to forgive them of their sins and to come into their life and guide them go when they die if they weren't around long enough to go through the entire process?

 

[patricius79]

Handed on? Where did it originate in the first place?

From Jesus Christ, whom Mary conceived with the Holy Spirit.

 

[patricius79]

So it's a process. Then where do those who have asked Christ (directly) to forgive them of their sins and to come into their life and guide them go when they die if they weren't around long enough to go through the entire process?

Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Those that aren't ready for Heaven when they die, but are holy, go to be saved as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). In Purgatory, the Most-Holy Name of Mary is a great consolation.

 

[Aldebaran]

From Jesus Christ, whom Mary conceived with the Holy Spirit.

Really? Where in scripture did Jesus Christ say we need to go through Mary?

 

[Aldebaran]

Can you elaborate more on what you mean? Those that aren't ready for Heaven when they die, but are holy, go to be saved as through fire (1 Corinthians 3:15). In Purgatory, the Most-Holy Name of Mary is a great consolation.

Well, you said the holiest are in Heaven. So where do those who aren't quite as holy go?

 

[patricius79]

Really? Where in scripture did Jesus Christ say we need to go through Mary?

It is implicit in Jesus Christ coming to us through Mary, who conceived Him who is our God. It is not explicit, nor is the doctrine of the Trinity, the two wills of Christ, the New Testament, etc. The Word of God is Sacred Tradtion, given orally and in writing 2 Thessalonians 2:15, John 17:8

 

[Aldebaran]

It is implicit in Jesus Christ coming to us through Mary, who conceived Him who is our God. It is not explicit, nor is the doctrine of the Trinity, the two wills of Christ, the New Testament, etc. The Word of God is Sacred Tradtion, given orally and in writing 2 Thessalonians 2:15, John 17:8

So you're saying that it's implied to be true, according to some people's understanding, and now everyone else is supposed to understand it the same way. By that implication, the mother of all the great people in the bible are greater than the person themselves. Was Moses's mother greater than Moses?

 

[patricius79]

So you're saying that it's implied to be true, according to some people's understanding, and now everyone else is supposed to understand it the same way.

Like the most-holy doctrine of the Trinity and the N.T. Canon--which also are not explicit in Scripture--it is the teaching of the Church.

By that implication, the mother of all the great people in the bible are greater than the person themselves. Was Moses's mother greater than Moses?

Mary is God's highest creature. Jesus is God. That's why we call Mary the Mother of God.

 

[Aldebaran]

Like the most-holy doctrine of the Trinity and the N.T. Canon--which also are not explicit in Scripture--it is the teaching of the Church.

So that's what it all comes back to--the teaching of the church based on their traditions. I was trying to get to where this whole thing about Mary-before-Christ originated. You keep going back to "it is the teaching of the Church", and the one verse about traditions.
In order to verify the validity of a tradition, it is best to find out its source.

Mary is God's highest creature. Jesus is God. That's why we call Mary the Mother of God.

Not because she was the vessel through which Jesus humbled Himself by becoming human? Remember also, "God" isn't just Jesus Christ alone. Mary didn't give birth to the only begotten Son of God before He became human. She also didn't give birth to God the Father or the Holy Spirit.

 

[patricius79]

So that's what it all comes back to--the teaching of the church based on their traditions. I was trying to get to where this whole thing about Mary-before-Christ originated.

The idea is to Jesus through Mary, and it comes from the historic, visible, organized Church which Jesus founded.

[QUOT]You keep going back to "it is the teaching of the Church", and the one verse about traditions. [/QUOTE]

Scripture commands us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Timothy 2:2. 1 Corinthians 11:1, 1 Corinthians 11:34, 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

[

In order to verify the validity of a tradition, it is best to find out its source.

Not because she was the vessel through which Jesus humbled Himself by becoming human? Remember also, "God" isn't just Jesus Christ alone.

No, but Jesus is fully God and fully man. The holy creature, Mary, is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. So Mary is the Mother of God.

 

[Aldebaran]

The idea is to Jesus through Mary, and it comes from the historic, visible, organized Church which Jesus founded.

So where did the church get the idea from? I still don't see it in scripture.

Scripture commands us to hold fast to the traditions, whether given orally or by letter. 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Timothy 2:2. 1 Corinthians 11:1, 1 Corinthians 11:34, 1 Thessalonians 2:13.

I'm sure Grafted In will be happy to read this part!

No, but Jesus is fully God and fully man. The holy creature, Mary, is the Mother of Jesus. Jesus is God. So Mary is the Mother of God.

I'm looking for a little more explanation than the repetitive posting of the same opinion you have. I just got through telling you that God is the Father, the only begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mary didn't give birth to the Father. Mary didn't give birth to the only begotten Son (He has always existed). Mary didn't give birth to the Holy Spirit. Understand?

 

[patricius79]

So where did the church get the idea from? I still don't see it in scripture.

From Christ, who taught orally.

I'm sure Grafted In will be happy to read this part!

I hope so.

I'm looking for a little more explanation than the repetitive posting of the same opinion you have. I just got through telling you that God is the Father, the only begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit. Mary didn't give birth to the Father.

No, but calling Jesus God doesn't mean denying that the Father or the Holy Spirit are God.

Mary didn't give birth to the only begotten Son

Mary is a creature who did give birth to God the Son, by virtue of the Incarnation. Jesus has two natures united in one Person (Catholic Council of Chalcedon)

(He has always existed).

Yes, He has.

Mary didn't give birth to the Holy Spirit. Understand?

Yes.

 

[concretecamper]

I keep reading responses that assume Sacred Scripture is the total of Divine Revelation. Considering that Sacred Scripture says no such thing, it must be a man made rule....go figure.

Back to scripture.... at Cana Mary asked her Son to begin His march towards the Cross. What other mother would do this? Immediatety, Jesus calls her Woman. Which Woman, we are told it is a reference to the Woman from Genisis. Now, if you recall there would be emnity between the Woman and the serpent. This does not assume a passive relationship. So, there we have in scripture Mary's active role battling against Satan.

So Mary has a unique role in Salvation history. As we know, Satan doesn't win. Mary would be someone good to have on your side.