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Where did the laws of nature come from?

Jfrsmth

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Armoured

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http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/laws-of-nature/

http://www.iep.utm.edu/lawofnat/

Please correct me if I am misusing terms here. Perhaps Natural Laws would be the better term?

However, Natural Laws and Laws of Nature are both metaphysical concepts. I am using the term metaphysical because the natural laws are not something you can touch or feel. They are beyond the physical realm.
If it dictates how the physical realm functions, it's a physical law, not a metaphysical one. That's why "physics" is an evidence based, empirical science, whereas "metaphysics" is purely philosophical.
 
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quatona

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Jfrsmth

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Why would you assume matter to act chaotically without divine guidance?

Things left to themselves tend to chaos.

Quite apparently, matter does can think. That´s at least what brain research suggest.

A brain is part of a living creature. It is not an independent collection of chemicals.

Matter on the other hand is a "physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit", i.e. non-living.

Undirected and random aren´t identical concepts.

I'll give you that. Care to elaborate?

How did this concept of god come here? ;)

From God, a being outside of time, space, and matter.

You didn´t answer the question how He did it. Until you do, I do not see why being unable to explain the "how´s" gives any competing hypothesis a disadvantage compared to yours.

He created from nothing. My question was not how God made everything, but how the laws came to be without God.

There are two basic perspectives: (a) supernatural (direction implied) and (b) purely natural / materialistic (undirected)

It´s funny that you demand answers that you yourself can´t give.

What makes you think that I am demanding anything? I am after a good discussion of the topic.

Why does everyone assume a defensive posture whenever these questions arise. Can't we just talk about them? I don't know everything, I want to hear from others.
 
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Jfrsmth

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If it dictates how the physical realm functions, it's a physical law, not a metaphysical one. That's why "physics" is an evidence based, empirical science, whereas "metaphysics" is purely philosophical.

The law is yes, a law that governs matter (the physical), but the law itself is not physical. Make any sense?
 
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Jfrsmth

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The question is malformed. As Quatona has pointed out, if there was no "divine lawgiver", why in the world would we expect matter and energy to behave completely randomly? Why would we expect no attributes to describe their properties? There's no reason the laws of nature have to "come from" anything. There's no reason to assume that they require a "cause", or that they even qualify as an "effect".

(And simply explaining it with "Because magic" does not provide a useful or meaningful answer to the question.)

Please read on for more explanation.
 
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Armoured

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The law is yes, a law that governs matter (the physical), but the law itself is not physical. Make any sense?
It isn't a thing you can touch, but it's still not metaphysical. It can be measured, quantified and understood.
 
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quatona

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Things left to themselves tend to chaos.
Citation needed.
How do can you even possibly arrive at this conclusion, when your premise is that matter isn´t left to itself?



A brain is part of a living creature. It is not an independent collection of chemicals.
Well, a brain consists of matter, and it emanates thoughts. So there: matter does/can think.

Matter on the other hand is a "physical substance in general, as distinct from mind and spirit", i.e. non-living.
But obviously, under certain condition, matter emanates thougths.



I'll give you that. Care to elaborate?
What in particular would you like to know?
At this point I would just like you to not confuse the two.



From God, a being outside of time, space, and matter.
I´m sure you see the problem of circularity here.



He created from nothing.
That´s not an explanation how he did it.
Or else "they sprang into existence from nothing" would be an explanation, as well.
My question was not how God made everything, but how the laws came to be without God.
We don´t know how they came to be with a God, and we don´t know how they came to be without a God. What now?
We don´t even know that they came to be.

There are two basic perspectives: (a) supernatural (direction implied) and (b) purely natural / materialistic (undirected)
No, there are more perspectives. E.g. you left out extra-natural (direction not implied).



What makes you think that I am demanding anything?
The fact that you don´t accept the answer "We don´t know".
I am after a good discussion of the topic.
I am discussing with you.

Why does everyone assume a defensive posture whenever these questions arise.
Apparently you are. Try to avoid projecting on others.

Can't we just talk about them?
What do you think we are doing right now?
I don't know everything, I want to hear from others.
Well, you have heard from me: We don´t have an explanation how matter came into existence, we don´t have an explanation how matter came to behave the way it does. We don´t have these explanations - with or without invoking deities.
There is no explanation required for the fact that matter behaves at all, and observing patterns in this behaviour isn´t any more explanationworthy than observing chaos would be.
 
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Gracchus

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1. No, not at all. But the laws themselves, the constants, the predictors of how matter behaves in the universe. That's what I am after.
Here are some constants that constrain how matter and energy interact, and these constants all depend on each other: Epsilon, pi, one and zero. Moreover, the physical constants like Planck's Constant and the speed of light and the gravitational constant are all determined by those basic mathematical constants. The cosine of zero is one. We have made up the words but the relationship is not made up. It is observed, a fact, a reality.
2. Materialistic refers to matter only. Matter cannot think or direct or create otherwise it would be directed processes. Thus, if not directed, it must be un-directed.
Those are assertions and they are obviously contrary to fact. The brain is matter and the brain thinks. At least mine does. I am made of matter and I have been known to drive a car and program a computer, so matter can obviously give direction. I have written a couple of poems and composed a couple of tunes, and molded a little clay, so matter can create.
3. The concept of God is that He is outside time, space, and matter. Therefore, He is able to create such things.
And the concept of leprechauns is that they horde gold, therefore you can find gold at the end of the rainbow. Reality can be demonstrated, and a baseball bat up aside your head is pretty convincing. Spirits cannot be demonstrated, and there is really no reason to suppose they exist.
If I didn't "get" something, can't you find it in your heart to excuse me and simply try to clarify?
People have been explaining it to you. You seem to have trouble understanding. To some of those who do understand, it appears that you are simply being perverse. I think you have simply not exercised your faculties enough to follow logical reasoning. When you tried to consider hard questions you just said "Miracles!" You are like a couch potato who has entered a four mile run. You simply aren't capable. Nothing wrong with that. Many people live perfectly happy and useful lives without any special skills or talents at all.
If you think I haven't understood your comment, then please, by all means, reword it or explain it in detail. Don't leave it up to interpretation.
It has been explained to you. Several people have made the effort. If you don't understand it is because you are by nature or lack of training incapable of understanding. Can you accept that there are some things you just don't know and can't learn without considerable effort? I would suggest courses in statistics, calculus, and abstract algebra, as well as physics, chemistry, astronomy, biology, and geology.
Who knows what the sum of triangles would be without the 180 degree rule?
Well, if you measure the angles in radians instead of degrees, then there are 2 X Pi radians in a circle, and the sum of the interior angles of a triangle is Pi. It can't be anything else. It is not a rule made arbitrarily. It can't be anything else.

:wave:
 
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Freodin

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Freodin, I'm not mocking you. I get too much attitude from people here on CF for asking questions and making points. Your response came across in a very similar fashion when all I meant to do was compliment you for what I perceived to be a good comment. There was no mocking there or even remotely intended. Hence, I made the comment to relax.

You are right, I am NOT a math major. Never was partial to math. I forgot basic geometry a hundred years ago. I'm a word man myself. So, please pardon me if I do not get what you are saying as it relates to the OP.
Are you a physics major? Astronomy? Cosmology? Chemistry? Somehow I don't think you are either... it would be quite difficult to do anything like that and "forget basic geometry".

So if you can see for yourself that you are lacking the basic skills to analyse these topics... how do you assume to ask and get answered questions like the one in the OP?

My question was meant to facilitate discussion from those who believe in purely materialistic and un-directed naturalistic processes, how these laws could have possibly come into the universe independent of a directing force.

I have been asked several times to clarify what laws are, and I think I have done a very good job of explaining them to the best of my ability as rules which govern predictable patterns of behavior for our universe.

Of course God could have decreed anything He wanted. I still do not see how this relates to what I am asking. Are you on a rabbit trail here? Are you trying to describe thought as opposed to laws??

The OP is asking how laws came into existence without direction. From everything I can understand about what you are trying to express, you are focusing on abstract ideas.

Sorry Freodin, I'm not getting it.
(my emphasis)
That is what I deny. You say that God could have decreed anything he wanted. Perhaps your faith requires you to say that... but I think you are very very wrong here.
I tried to explain that in my last post: the difference between the "laws of nature" and "laws" of the kind that you think of.
These laws of nature are not decrees at all, they are observations. God could not have "decreed" anything about them, because they are not decreed. There isn't and wasn't any "decree" (by God) or "natural process" that ever made triangles have three sides... it is part of what a triangle is.

So, again, when you ask "My question was meant to facilitate discussion from those who believe in purely materialistic and un-directed naturalistic processes, how these laws could have possibly come into the universe independent of a directing force.", the question is meaningless.
Those who believe in purely materialistic... etc... do not believe that these laws CAME into the universe. They are a basic and integral part of the universe.


Do you understand that?
 
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The Cadet

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Freodin

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How do can you even possibly arrive at this conclusion, when your premise is that matter isn´t left to itself?
Theological bias.

God does everything, except for all the things that do not fit under the theological premises. These things all happen by natural and undirected processes.
 
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Heissonear

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If it dictates how the physical realm functions, it's a physical law, not a metaphysical one. That's why "physics" is an evidence based, empirical science, whereas "metaphysics" is purely philosophical.
Armoured, from your perspective could there be a difference between a physical law and a natural law?

I know they over lap, but do you also see distinction?
 
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Armoured

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Armoured, from your perspective could there be a difference between a physical law and a natural law?

I know they over lap, but do you also see distinction?
Not... really. At most, "natural laws" are emergent properties of physical laws.
 
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Papias

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Wouldn't 1+1=2 be considered a part of mathematical law? So, my assertion is that yes, there had to be a lawgiver, as opposed to laws "becoming" by chance.


OK, that makes this easier to discuss, I think.

On one hand, one could say that 1+1 =2 because that's what God decreed, and He could have equally easily decreed that 1+1=5.

On the other hand, one could say that 1+1=2 because that's just the way it is, no God needed.

I don't see an easy way to distinguish between these two, other than Occam's razor favoring #2.

In Christ-

Papias
 
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I did not invent that term. That is what researchers call them: laws.
The term natural "law" derives from a time when it was assumed there was a law-giver.
But for an unbiased philosophical inquiry, we should drop the term as it brings too many prejudices to the discussion.
 
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durangodawood

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....Who knows what the sum of triangles would be without the 180 degree rule? How does that relate to the OP?...
Its a test to help us determine what we mean by "law".

Do triangles "obey" the 180d law?
If there was no such "law" would we find the angles of triangles adding up to any old number?
Its enough to make me think this so called "law" is really just our description of triangles, and has no metaphysical existence or properties of its own..
 
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1) The poster mentioned that the energy likely existed in some other form. Energy is a relational concept in physics.
Energy is a rational concept in physics and a physical actuality in reality. The poster might believe that energy could have existed in some other form but that is another question and one that has serious problems in that it would mean that energy had to exist at another time and time came into existence with the existence of the universe.

2) Universe is a very slippery concept, especially when we are talking about any kind of "before universe". In philosophical terms, Universe is synonymous with "everything". In some shape or form everything was. The inalienable attribute of existence is that it can't "not exist". There is no such thing as "absolute nothing" philosophically.
So if something exists it can never have not existed? Sorry not getting you here. Why do you think there is nothing that is absolute nothing philosophically or otherwise?

When we are talking about Universe with its inception, we generally are talking about Universe as it is now. Discussing how and why it was before is a meaningless question. It's like asking "Why the sky is blue". The only proper answer to that question is "How the sky is blue". In science "How and Why" tend to be synonymous.
We know why the sky is blue, at least in scientific terms but asking how nothing became something is not on the same conceptual level as is how did the universe pop into existence into nothing...no space to pop into. Space didn't exist, gravity didn't exist, time didn't exist and energy didn't exist as far as we can tell. So asking how the sky is blue is a relative simple question but has meaning and so does "how did the universe come to exist and how did the laws that govern it come into existence is a very meaningful and important question to ask in my opinion.
 
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The term natural "law" derives from a time when it was assumed there was a law-giver.
But for an unbiased philosophical inquiry, we should drop the term as it brings too many prejudices to the discussion.
When was there a time that the law no longer needed a law giver?
 
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