Why don't protestants bless Mary?

[patricius79]

In the Catholic translation of the Bible ( Douay Rheims) it reads in Luke 1:28 “ the angel said to her: Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.” Unanimously in all the other translations which are from the Greek, not the Latin. They instead say, “ Rejoice, highly favored one the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women.” .

My understanding is that a literal translation, is "Hail, Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace".

This identifies the Mother of God as one whose very identity is to be endowed with grace, to be sinless, to be the woman who will conceive Jesus Christ, our God, by a spiritual union with God the Holy Spirit, her Spouse.

 

[bbbbbbb]

My understanding is that a literal translation, is "Hail, Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace".

This identifies the Mother of God as one whose very identity is to be endowed with grace, to be sinless, to be the woman who will conceive Jesus Christ, our God, by a spiritual union with God the Holy Spirit, her Spouse.

Then you would be wrong. Perhaps it would behoove you to do a little word study in Greek. This is a good first step - http://biblehub.com/greek/5463.htm

 

[Albion]

The wild card that you have mentioned is Scripture and not something made up so I would suggest that you read Scripture

Fair enough. Show us where in Scripture "oral traditions" is said to define doctrine or ought to. I can't find it myself.

 

[Paul1963]

Fair enough. Show us where in Scripture "oral traditions" is said to define doctrine or ought to. I can't find it myself.

All the scripture is athoratative and the word of God. I believe that all of it is doctrine to be followed and adhered to. Not all Scripture is spelled out exactly what it means but when Paul tells us to listen to and use oral traditions. We can not pick and choose what we want to believe the Bible is dose not contradict it self in any way.

 

[Grafted In]

The wild card that you have mentioned is Scripture and not something made up so I would suggest that you read Scripture

Ok, show me in Scripture, then, that Mary was sinless and was taken to.heaven and resides with The Father and The Son as the queen of the kingdom.
Show me and I will believe.

No, your wildcard is traditions of men, doctrines added to what Truth was already known. Traditions that make false assumptions that the catholic church chose to believe in spite of the lack of any Scriptural support.

 

[patricius79]

Then you would be wrong. Perhaps it would behoove you to do a little word study in Greek. This is a good first step - http://biblehub.com/greek/5463.htm

How is it incorrect to translate the passage as this?: "Hail, Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace."

 

[patricius79]

Fair enough. Show us where in Scripture "oral traditions" is said to define doctrine or ought to. I can't find it myself.

Both the written and the oral traditions constitute Christian doctrine: 2 Thessalonians 2:15. That is how I know that Mary is the New Eve.

 

[patricius79]

Ok, show me in Scripture, then, that Mary was sinless and was taken to.heaven and resides with The Father and The Son as the queen of the kingdom.
Show me and I will believe.

No, your wildcard is traditions of men, doctrines added to what Truth was already known. Traditions that make false assumptions that the catholic church chose to believe in spite of the lack of any Scriptural support.

I don't think the Bible says that.

They do have Scriptural support. Scripture is part of the Word of God (Catholic Tradition), passed on by the Catholic Church, which tells us which books are in Scripture.

When the Bible tells names Mary as "Having-Been-Endowed-With-Grace", and says that she conceives Jesus Christ, our God, by a union with God the Holy Spirit, that is supporting everything the Catholic Church teaches about the Mother of God, the New Eve.

 

[Grafted In]

Well, i've no reason to suspect that you are not born again, just that we believe different doctrines. I gather you believe that faith in Christ is what saves and that is all that is required for salvation. It's just that it seems as though you are dragging a lot of man-made doctrines behind you.
So God bless you, Patricius79

 

[Meowzltov]

In the end ,what are we judged by,Scripture or tradition?

Do you believe if we are under grace we are to be judged? Can you explain that?

 

[Albion]

All the scripture is athoratative and the word of God.

OK

I believe that all of it is doctrine to be followed and adhered to. Not all Scripture is spelled out exactly what it means but when Paul tells us to listen to and use oral traditions.

No, he doesn't. That's why I asked for specifics, so I could see what you had in mind.

While I appreciate that you answered my post, we still need to see where any doctrines are said, in Scripture, to be revealed or decided by oral traditions...and what those doctrines are.

 

[Meowzltov]

The letters were already written before there was any such thing as a Catholic Church....

a. Ignatius wrote in 108 AD describing the Apostolic Church as the Catholic Church. Ignatius was a student of John's and ordained by Peter. It is obvious from the context that he wrote to people who were already familiar with the term, thus we know that 'Catholic Church' was already widely and use and had been used for some time. Basically, the Church born on Pentecost came to be called the Catholic Church.

b. the letters were not gathered into the canon of the New Testament until the end of the 4th century, by the authority of the bishops of the Catholic church. In the time of the Apostolic Fathers, these epistles along with many many other letters were simply passed around the churches and were not considered Scriptures. They had authority as did the other letters simply because the bishops that wrote them had authority.

 

[patricius79]

OK


No, he doesn't. That's why I asked for specifics, so I could see what you had in mind.

While I appreciate that you answered my post, we still need to see where any doctrines are said, in Scripture, to be revealed or decided by oral traditions...and what those doctrines are.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 says that we are to hold fast to the traditions as they were given, whether orally or by letter.

This fits with 2 Timothy 2:2, Matthew 16:19, Luke 10:16, 1 Thessalonians 2:13, John 17:8, and many other Scriptures.

 

[Grafted In]

Do you believe if we are under grace we are to be judged? Can you explain that?

Now that's something that looks like we agree on, Open Heart. Aside from all of the disagreements displayed here and countless other threads, I do not believe those saved during the period of Grace face judgement. Instead I believe we will face a time when we will receive the rewards of our Fruits in Christ.
At least that's how I understand your post?

 

[Meowzltov]

Was Mary Sinless?
by Dr. Ken Matto

I don't come into a forum to read a half dozen articles pasted from other sites. Honestly, it's YOU I like talking to! If you can put things into your own words, I would love it. If you have maybe one site you find particularly inspiring, you can quote maybe a paragraph from it and a link. But please don't give me three pages of pasted stuff. Thanks.

I'm well aware of the counter arguments, and Romans 3:23 and all that. I grew up with these arguments. I was raised a fundamentalist. The "all" in for "all" have sinned is a generalized all rather than a literal all. For example, newborn babies who die the day they are born have not sinned. That's millions and millions and millions of examples of people who have not sinned.

 

[Albion]

a. Ignatius wrote in 108 AD describing the Apostolic Church as the Catholic Church.

He obviously didn't mean the Roman Catholic Church. Nearly everyone who isn't trying to make a sectarian out of Ignatius understands that the word was being used in its original sense to mean the authentic church, which was then undivided, as opposed to the Gnostic sects.

He wasn't referring to any particular denomination of later times, including the many which use the word "Catholic" as part of their legal names.

 

[Paul1963]

OK


No, he doesn't. That's why I asked for specifics, so I could see what you had in mind.

While I appreciate that you answered my post, we still need to see where any doctrines are said, in Scripture, to be revealed or decided by oral traditions...and what those doctrines are.

Well there is Tim 2:2 and 3:14-15 also Tim 4:6-8 and 2Thess2:15 and Luke 10:16 then Roman's 10:- 17. I believe that when you read not just these passages but all of them in the full context of the books this for me it makes it clear the beginning of apostolic tradition.

 

[patricius79]

He obviously didn't mean the Roman Catholic Church. Nearly everyone who isn't trying to make a sectarian out of Ignatius understands that the word was being used in its original sense to mean the authentic church, which was then undivided, as opposed to the Gnostic sects.

He wasn't referring to any particular denomination of later times, including the many which use the word "Catholic" as part of their legal names.

I believe that when he and the early Church referred to "the Catholic Church" they mean the Catholic Church. The early Church clearly testified to the distinctively Catholic structures--I believe Ignatius says that the Roman Church "holds the presidency"--such as the Papacy and the hierarchy and Catholic doctrines such as Mary being the New Eve, seen already in the 100s.

 

[Albion]

Well there is Tim 2:2 and 3:14-15 also Tim 4:6-8 and 2Thess2:15 and Luke 10:16 then Roman's 10:- 17. I believe that when you read not just these passages but all of them in the full context of the books this for me it makes it clear the beginning of apostolic tradition.

Not a one of those speaks of "oral tradition," and none of them refers to any particular doctrine. How could we adhere to any doctrine, from tradition or elsewise, without knowing what it is?

 

[patricius79]

Not a one of those speaks of "oral tradition,"

Certainly they do. "Whoever listens to you listens to me" "Therefore brethren stand firm and hold fast to the traditions, just as they were handed on, whether orally or by letter". "And what you have heard from me before many witnesses pass on to other who will have the ability to teach others also". Luke 10:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:15, 2 Timothy 2:2.