abstaining from sin not equal to good works?

[brotherjerry]

When quoting Matthew 24:13 one should look at the surrounding context as well. What time frame is Jesus talking about? He was asked in verse 3 "and what will be the sign of your coming, and of the end of the age?"

 

[Marvin Knox]

These verses are giving REQUIREMENTS. Basically, standing firm is a requirement for salvation. And keeping the commandments is a requirement for abiding in his love.

Keeping the commandments is a requirement for abiding in his love. To this I agree.

It says that the one who stands firm will be saved. It does not say, however, that standing firm is a requirement for salvation.

That is not to say that standing firm is not important or that it will not result in gain. That is not to say that not standing firm will not result in loss.

But please - do not go beyond what is written.

 

[Soyeong]

"The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's law, so if you agree that we should cooperate with the Holy Spirit, then you should agree that we should obey God's law."

Who here has advocated NOT obeying God's law? No one that i know of! That's a false charge! The issue is one of emphasis, not an either/or situation. The ones stridently demanding Obedience! Obedience! are advocating activity to add to Christ's work, as though it were not enough to save utterly. The works that we do (that are acceptable to God and that please Him) flow from faith, and are the evidence of faith, not the other way around. Usually those who stress works are doing so to see works that they approve of, to categorize and pigeonhole others, ranking them in their own minds. Such an attitude is unscriptural. Who are any of us to judge another's servant?

God's law includes things like keeping the Sabbath holy, the New Moons, Feasts, and dietary laws, which the majority of Christians that I talk to sadly don't advocate obeying. Case in point, Marvin Knox was trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law. Often when I emphasize the importance of obedience to God, I get the response that I am adding to Christ's work or being legalistic, when nothing is further from the truth. Christ died to free us from transgression of the law so that by faith we could be free to obey it (Romans 6:15-19). As always, when correcting the sin of others, we should do so with gentleness and humility.

 

[sdowney717]

God's law includes things like keeping the Sabbath holy, the New Moons, Feasts, and dietary laws, which the majority of Christians that I talk to sadly don't advocate obeying. Case in point, Marvin Knox was trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law. Often when I emphasize the importance of obedience to God, I get the response that I am adding to Christ's work or being legalistic, when nothing is further from the truth. Christ died to free us from transgression of the law so that by faith we could be free to obey it (Romans 6:15-19). As always, when correcting the sin of others, we should do so with gentleness and humility.

I just want to add that Jesus is Lord, and even of the sabbath observance, Jesus is Lord.

Matthew 12
At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it,they said to Him, “Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!”

3 But He said to them, “Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice,’ you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”

So We are free from the curse of the Law, the Law is our tutor to bring us to the greater One, Christ. Christ being Lord of all, then determines our being in the right or in the wrong apart from the strict observance of the Law and His desire for believers is mercy not sacrifice. Even if His people do something the law has said is not lawful for them to do for He is Lord over the Law and is merciful. That determination of guilt or innocence is His to determine.

So Jesus here decrees David guiltless even though They ate the showbread which was not lawful for them to eat.

Romans 8 says the same about us being guiltless before the Lord for those who are His people, just like David.
There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

Colossians 2
11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, 14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.15 Having disarmed principalities and powers, He made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them in it.

16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. 18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

20 Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as thoughliving in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— 21 “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,” 22 which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.

 

[nobdysfool]

God's law includes things like keeping the Sabbath holy, the New Moons, Feasts, and dietary laws, which the majority of Christians that I talk to sadly don't advocate obeying. Case in point, Marvin Knox was trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law. Often when I emphasize the importance of obedience to God, I get the response that I am adding to Christ's work or being legalistic, when nothing is further from the truth. Christ died to free us from transgression of the law so that by faith we could be free to obey it (Romans 6:15-19). As always, when correcting the sin of others, we should do so with gentleness and humility.

Gentiles were never under the Law. Requiring Gentile Christians to keep the Jewish Law is contrary to Scripture, specifically Act 15:28-29

Act 15:28-29 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; (29) That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.​

Therefore, you need to rethink what you're saying. Consider this: Are we not crucified with Christ, as Paul says?

Are we not dead, and our life hid with Christ in God? (Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.)?

Are we not to reckon ourselves dead to sin, and alive to God, by means of the work of Christ?

Did not Christ fulfill the Law, completely? What is the penalty for not keeping the law? Is that not death?

Once the Law is fulfilled, does there remain any more penalty?

In Christ, we are moved beyond the penalty of death for sin, in that we both died with Him, and have been raised with Him. He took the penalty for sin upon Himself, fulfilling the Law. We are forgiven, for Christ's sake, so that we may serve Him in newness of life, having our sins covered and washed away by Jesus, the Christ.

 

[sdowney717]

Colossians 3

3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. 4 When Christ who is our life appears, then you also will appear with Him in glory.

5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.

We are no longer under the penalty of death for sins since we are already dead, sin can not reign over us. We are like Christ since He is our life.
We are set free from the penalty of sin and death.

Romans 6
5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.

7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Fantastic!

 

[ZacharyB]

The role of the Spirit is to cause us to obey God's law,
so if you agree that we should cooperate with the Holy Spirit,
then you should agree that we should obey God's law.

Of course ... this is obvious!

But, all of this shoulda, woulda, coulda stuff is a complete waste of time!
WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO DON'T DO YOUR BOLD ABOVE?
That's what soteriology is all about.
But, we have many soteriologists here who have
no idea what the Scriptures teach about it!

 

[ZacharyB]

As always, when correcting the sin of others,
we should do so with gentleness and humility.

Yes, this is exactly how Jesus taught Paul to do it over a 17-year period.
And Jesus Himself did it this way in His letters to the 7 churches!
Problem is: the gentle tactful method causes many people to miss the warnings!
Answer is: the Holy Spirit must reveal the seriousness of the dire warnings to believers.
Those who heed them, and co-operate with obedience, are few ... God's elect.
Problem is (con't): the hirelings in the pulpits are not teaching the truth ...
either out of ignorance (Satan's deceptions), or on purpose (for various reasons).

 

[nobdysfool]

Of course ... this is obvious!

But, all of this shoulda, woulda, coulda stuff is a complete waste of time!
WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO DO NOT DO YOUR BOLD ABOVE?
That's what soteriology is all about.
But, we have many soteriologists here who have
no idea what the Scriptures teach about it!

And there are those here, who believe the way to establish their particular view, flawed as it is, is by implying that those who do not agree with them have no knowledge of the Scriptures, and may not truly be saved. Such an attitude is a secret pride in themselves, and how wise they consider themselves to be, comparing themselves with others and always believing that they are better, smarter, more knowledgeable, and therefore justified in putting others down. That is not the Spirit of Christ, or of God. They will incur a harsher judgment, for their mishandling, of the Word, and of God's people.

 

[brotherjerry]

Amen Nobdysfool.

 

[cuja1]

Yes, this is exactly how Jesus taught Paul to do it over a 17-year period.
And Jesus Himself did it this way in His letters to the 7 churches!
Problem is: the gentle tactful method causes many people to miss the warnings!
Answer is: the Holy Spirit must reveal the seriousness of the dire warnings to believers.
Those who heed them, and co-operate with obedience, are few ... God's elect.
Problem is (con't): the hirelings in the pulpits are not teaching the truth ...
either out of ignorance (Satan's deceptions), or on purpose (for various reasons).

When We sin in this life God punishes us. And in My experience the punishment becomes increasingly difficult to bear.

Eventually it becomes clear that the choice is life or death and those with faith are able to choose life and live. Those who are forgiven much love much.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Case in point, Marvin Knox was trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law.

For the record - I was not "trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law". I was saying it very clearly just as the scriptures say it very clearly.

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." Romans 2:12-16

Those who are relying on refraining from sin (as important as that may be) in order to be saved are preaching another gospel. They have fallen from grace.

"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” Galatians 3:10-113

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:6-9

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?" Galatians 3:1-4

These, and many other verses, were written to gentiles just like many here in this forum who teach that something must be added to faith in order that we may be saved in the end.

While all must agree that genuine faith will result in works or it is not genuine - that is a far cry from the false gospel being preached here.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

"Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?” Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:28)

 

[EmSw]

For the record - I was not "trying to suggest that Gentiles keeping a good conscious is somehow the equivalent of Jews obeying God's law". I was saying it very clearly just as the scriptures say it very clearly.

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus." Romans 2:12-16

Those who are relying on refraining from sin (as important as that may be) in order to be saved are preaching another gospel. They have fallen from grace.

"You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Gal. 5:4

"For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree” Galatians 3:10-113

"I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed!" Galatians 1:6-9

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?" Galatians 3:1-4

These, and many other verses, were written to gentiles just like many here in this forum who teach that something must be added to faith in order that we may be saved in the end.

While all must agree that genuine faith will result in works or it is not genuine - that is a far cry from the false gospel being preached here.

So how do you use these verses for OSAS? Is salvation based upon what one teaches?

How does one know if their faith is genuine? Is it by works? If so, how is one saved without works?

 

[hedrick]

I think what Paul meant by faith was your primary commitment. It’s not intellectual belief. If we’re to understand Jesus and Paul as preaching the same Gospel, we have to be able to connect their messages. For Jesus, the big thing was being a follower. While he taught judgment based on works, he didn’t expect perfect obedience, nor did he ever do anything to suggest God as a cosmic score-keeper. For him being a follower was who you look to, like a child looks to their parents. There are pretty disobedient kids, but they're still children of their parents.

The Reformers believed that faith was primarily trust. This is based on the example of Abraham, who as Paul writes the example, seemed to trust God. But it’s really easy for that to become legalistic, and get people worried about whether they trust enough. Which is surely not what Paul intended. So I think I’d use Jesus’ teaching, which suggests to me that the question is whether you're part of God's family, even though it may be shown only imperfectly in your life.

Jesus and Paul are also pretty clear that following Jesus isn’t independent of how you act. While according to Jesus, God will forgive us even if we commit the same sin 7 times a day, still, he’s pretty clear in expect at least some fruit. Even offering a cup of water will have its reward, but it’s hard to credibly claim to be a follower if you don’t follow. To me the real problems with so-called works righteousness are (1) a tendency to turn God into a cosmic bookkeeper, and ethics into lists of rules, (2) a sense that we earn salvation. But Jesus is quite clear that being his follower is like being a slave. Even the best you do is just what you’re called to; it can’t be seen as meriting anything.

You ask about OSAS. OSAS is, in my somewhat biased opinion, a free-will Baptist misunderstanding of the Reformed concept of eternal security. Eternal security is an implication of the Reformed doctrines of grace. It says that we’re only Christians because God has called us. We make responsible decisions, but in the end, we’re brought to the point of accepting Christ only because he has been working with us beforehand. We can be confident in the future, because God is in control. OSAS is what you get when you try to maintain confidence in salvation but remove the thing it is based on — the idea that we’re Christians only because God calls us. Reformed assurance is based on trusting God. Luther and Calvin could trust that God’s commitment to them wouldn’t waver. So salvation is preserved by God because of the constancy of his commitment. But if you no longer believe that our faith comes from God, then salvation becomes preserved because God has some kind of rule that if we once do or think some specific thing, he’s committed to accepting us forever. A very different idea, and one that i don’t find in Scripture.

 

[Marvin Knox]

So how do you use these verses for OSAS? Is salvation based upon what one teaches?

How does one know if their faith is genuine? Is it by works? If so, how is one saved without works?

I have no idea what you are getting at with the first sentence.

No. Salvation is not based on what one teaches.

Yes, among other things, it is by works that one knows if his faith is genuine.

One is not saved without works. Saving faith produces works as a result of that faith.

 

[com7fy8]

Abstaining from sin to me is not lusting, not committing fornication, not lying, not coveting. In general, not doing what the Bible calls a sin.

I think of >

"Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life, so that I may rejoice in the day of Christ that I have not run in vain or labored in vain." (Philippians 2:14-16)

Here we see abstinence . . . from "complaining and disputing"; but with this abstaining can come how we "become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation". Because complaining is directly against God and loving God, and arguing is directly against how we can be relating in love with one another. So - - - as we put away these anti-love things, we can grow in God's love and how He has us relating with Him and with one another.

So, for this there can be the works, maybe we could say, of refusing in us to argue or complain, but also the works instead which are done in love. And doing things in love can exercise us to become stronger in love, like how a child's wholesome activities can help the child to develop as a healthy and strong person.

 

[EmSw]

I have no idea what you are getting at with the first sentence.

No. Salvation is not based on what one teaches.

Yes, among other things, it is by works that one knows if his faith is genuine.

One is not saved without works. Saving faith produces works as a result of that faith.

Thank you Marvin.

I guess what I was asking is this - when does faith become genuine? Is faith genuine before any works are done? If no works are present, when does it become a saving faith?

 

[hedrick]

The whole point of justification by faith is that it’s not about us. Any attempt to judge whether your faith is sufficiently genuine is likely to lead to trouble, because it causes you to start paying attention to your own thoughts, to doubt them, and to try and manufacture certainty. This is a trap. It’s like a young kid trying to ride a bike and looking at what his feet are doing.

Our confidence should come from how much God loves us. If you’re having trouble, look at him.

Of course we should also examine our lives to make sure we’re living up to our faith. Jesus talks a lot about how God holds us responsible for what we do. But that’s for living as Jesus’ followers. It’s not a test to figure out whether he’s accepted us.

 

[Marvin Knox]

Thank you Marvin.

I guess what I was asking is this - when does faith become genuine? Is faith genuine before any works are done? If no works are present, when does it become a saving faith?

You have either believed in and rested in the provisions of the gospel or you have not. If you have - you are justified by your "genuine" faith. If you have not - you are still in your sins and are not justified before God.

Works follow faith and are the evidence thereof.

You have saving faith before any works are likely to be seen.

Although judging the works of a new baby in Christ would be a pretty tricky proposition - works of some kind will follow faith.

This is all basic Christianity 101 stuff is it not?