Historical Church Leaders Call Pope Antichrist

[Meowzltov]

Could you elaborate? I am interested in knowing any and all errors present in all things used for understanding God's Word.
Thanx...

Oh, I don't remember the mistakes now. I spotted them years ago, when I was just returning to Christ after having spent years in Judaism. My memories of Hebrew have faded away, since I have not really used Hebrew except in recitation. It was only in my years of Orthodoxy that I actually got into actually translating passages under the guidance of the Rabbi who was fluent. I came across some stuff in Strong's that I had covered during my translation sessions. They were "sins of omission," LOL. What I mean to say is that Strong's left out certain definitions that were important and needed to be used in the translation. It all seems very long ago now.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I agree that in a sense the Church is built on Rock's faith. But even many Protestant scholars, including DA Carson acknowledge that the plain meaning of the verse is that Christ is promising to build the Church on Simon Rock. That's why he gave him that name. Was Rock weak before Pentecost (and even after)? Sure. But Christ's power is perfected in weakness. There have been good Popes and bad Popes, but through Christ's grace the Church has remained united in the Papacy. You say that Christ is the Rock. Of course he is. That is why it is so remarkable that Christ gave Simon the name "Rock", thus investing him with his authority in a unique way. In fact, Christ specifically prayed for Rock that his faith would not fail, and that after he turned again he would strengthen the brethren.

It's simple: the unity of the Church, in Christ, must be reflected in a single, authoritative teaching office.

Why are you capitalizing the name rock when referring to Peter? That in itself is blasphemy... Christ is the Rock and anything attributed to Him in a spiritual sense is capitalized. To do that for a man is exactly what the Papacy does... claims to be equal to Christ, Christ on earth... really!? Pure and unadulterated heresy!

So what other Biblical evidence do you have that Simon Peter was the head of the church? Did he lead the council in Jerusalem regarding circumcision? Was he the one that Jesus called His beloved? No, in fact in John 21:21-23 we see that Jesus rebuked Peter for apparently thinking John was the one to follow, the leader and that they believed that John would not die. Who does it appear was the one favoured by Christ to carry His church forward, who did He give the commission to write the greatest book that gives us the evidence of the church down through the ages?

If the Papacy had of been smart, they would have picked John for their fairy tale belief of apostolic succession... at least you would have a bit more Biblical evidence for it.

 

[patricius79]

Why are you capitalizing the name rock when referring to Peter? That in itself is blasphemy...

It's no different than saying "Peter", which means "Rock".

Christ is the Rock and anything attributed to Him in a spiritual sense is capitalized.[ To do that for a man is exactly what the Papacy does... claims to be equal to Christ, Christ on earth... really!? Pure and unadulterated heresy!

I think you are sharing your oral traditions.

Christ gave Simon the name "Rock". I'm only respecting that.

So what other Biblical evidence do you have that Simon Peter was the head of the church? .

Even by referring to "Biblical evidence", I think you are testifying to the authority of the Catholic Church and the Papacy, since the N.T. Canon is not in Scripture, but comes from Catholic Tradition, of which Scripture is a part.

Christ giving him the name "Rock", always listing his name first among the Apostles, being mentioned far more than the other 12, being told that the Church would be founded on him, and that whatever he bound on earth would be bound in heaven, etc.

 

[farout]

Here are some quotes from her..





Below is what we believe in regard to the atonement of Christ and it's ministration...

[/QUOTE]


I am totally amazed you went to such a great effort to respond with actual quotes. You have done very well in deed! Thank you.

One more question please. She reportedly said Satan asked God for a second chance, it that fact or ? Thank you for all your effort.

 

[stage five]

Why are you capitalizing the name rock when referring to Peter? [

His name was Petros - which is rock.

That in itself is blasphemy... Christ is the Rock and anything attributed to Him in a spiritual sense is capitalized. To do that for a man is exactly what the Papacy does... claims to be equal to Christ, Christ on earth... really!? Pure and unadulterated heresy!

That makes absolutely no sense. If Christ considered Himself the rock, then he sounds insane. Most non-Catholics believe Christ is referring to something that is not Peter or Christ. You know, so He doesn't sound crazy.

So what other Biblical evidence do you have that Simon Peter was the head of the church? Did he lead the council in Jerusalem regarding circumcision? Was he the one that Jesus called His beloved? No, in fact in John 21:21-23 we see that Jesus rebuked Peter for apparently thinking John was the one to follow, the leader and that they believed that John would not die.

He wasn't "rebuked". He asked what would happen to John. There is nothing in John to indicate he would be the leader.

Who does it appear was the one favoured by Christ to carry His church forward, who did He give the commission to write the greatest book that gives us the evidence of the church down through the ages?

John didn't write John.
John doesn't really get into the "Church". That's Acts and the Epistles.

 

[farout]

I don't know Greek or Hebrew, but I know that the name Peter means "Rock", and that Christ built the Church on Rock (Peter), thus founding the Papacy.

Correction: the "rock you refer to means a small stone. Which is off the ROCK which is Jesus Christ. This long has been debated by the Roman Church and Protestants. I will not debate about the Authority of the Pope, which this all really is about.

 

[Meowzltov]

Why are you capitalizing the name rock when referring to Peter? That in itself is blasphemy...

It is Christ himself that gave Simon the name of Rock. Surely Jesus was not blaspheming.

 

[Albion]

It is Christ himself that gave Simon the name of Rock. Surely Jesus was not blaspheming.

Isn't that irrelevant to the question of whether or not the word rock should be capitalized? Not Peter or Petros, but rock.

 

[Meowzltov]

Isn't that irrelevant to the question of whether or not the word rock should be capitalized? Not Peter or Petros, but rock.

And upon THIS rock... THIS referring to the last rock mentioned, which was Rock (Peter). Since it is a name and capitalized, if someone wants to similarly capitalize the second Rock, it would also make sense.

 

[Albion]

And upon THIS rock... THIS referring to the last rock mentioned, which was Rock (Peter).

I didn't ask who it referred to. I asked why rock would be capitalized. No one thinks that Christ literally went around calling Peter "Rock" for the rest of their time together ("You will deny me, Rock." "Get thee behind me, Rock" LOL)

 

[patricius79]

And upon THIS rock... THIS referring to the last rock mentioned, which was Rock (Peter). Since it is a name and capitalized, if someone wants to similarly capitalize the second Rock, it would also make sense.

I find it interesting--from my perspective--how Protestants often demand explicit Scriptures from Catholics, and then when we have them (such as the word of God that the Church is built on Simon Rock) they seemingly reject them.

 

[patricius79]

I didn't ask who it referred to. I asked why rock would be capitalized. No one thinks that Christ literally went around calling Peter "Rock" for the rest of their time together

I do. That's what Simon's new name was: "Rock".

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I do. That's what Simon's new name was: "Rock".

Source? Thanx...

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

And upon THIS rock... THIS referring to the last rock mentioned, which was Rock (Peter). Since it is a name and capitalized, if someone wants to similarly capitalize the second Rock, it would also make sense.

Peter was far from a rock... the rock Jesus was referring to was the rock of faith which was mentioned in the previous verse. It was upon the faith of believers that Christ's church would be built... not on a sinful erring man. Nothing in the Bible supports this contention.

What about the other points that show that Peter could not be the leader of the early church?

 

[patricius79]

Source? Thanx...

DA Carson and RT France--both highly respected Protestant scholars, along with Craig Blomberg and others provided at the link below:

Here is DA Carson:

"The word Peter petros, meaning 'rock,' (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

One more question please. She reportedly said Satan asked God for a second chance, it that fact or ? Thank you for all your effort.

This all I could find for now... you have to realize that she wrote over 100,000 pages so searching for specifics can be difficult at times.

Satan charged God with an unforgiving spirit, because he would not receive on terms of favor those who disobeyed his law and therefore misrepresented his character. But forgiveness of sins would be of no avail unless the course of transgression was abandoned, and the grace of Christ imparted to the sinner to renovate, purify, and ennoble him who had fallen by iniquity. This was the only way by which the sinner could be restored to divine favor, and trusted to come into copartnership with Jesus Christ. But in Christ we behold the character of the Father, and see the pitying tenderness which God exercised for fallen man, giving his only begotten Son as a ransom for the transgressors of the law. It is in beholding the love of God that repentance is awakened in the sinner's heart, and an earnest desire is created to become reconciled to God. When the transgressor becomes acquainted with God, and experiences his love, it produces in his heart a hatred for sin and a love for holiness. {RH, March 9, 1897 par. 4}

In the opening of the great controversy, Satan had declared that the law of God could not be obeyed, that justice was inconsistent with mercy, and that, should the law be broken, it would be impossible for the sinner to be pardoned. Every sin must meet its punishment, urged Satan; and if God should remit the punishment of sin, He would not be a God of truth and justice. When men broke the law of God, and defied His will, Satan exulted. It was proved, he declared, that the law could not be obeyed; man could not be forgiven. Because he, after his rebellion, had been banished from heaven, Satan claimed that the human race must be forever shut out from God's favor. God could not be just, he urged, and yet show mercy to the sinner. {DA 761.4}

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

DA Carson and RT France--both highly respected Protestant scholars, along with Craig Blomberg and others provided at the link below:

Here is DA Carson:

"The word Peter petros, meaning 'rock,' (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus' follow-up statement he uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken 'rock' to be anything or anyone other than Peter." (Carson, Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary [Zondervan, 1994], volume 2, page 78, as cited in Butler/Dahlgren/Hess, page 18)
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

Thank you for the source...

 

[farout]

It is Christ himself that gave Simon the name of Rock. Surely Jesus was not blaspheming.

Jesus is the "Petros" and Peter is the "Petra". :many scholars doubt the authenticity of these verses because they are missing in Mark and Luke. We may note that in addition to positions that simply deny that these words are authentic (e.g., Bultman NT Theology, 1:45; THE EXPOSTER'S BIBLE COMMENTARY volume 8 page 66. Zondervan Corporation 1984.

The seems to be a difference in Biblical Scholars as to Matthew 16:18 is or is not. The question really is directly about who is the Church (Universal) built upon. Would the reading be saying that Jesus Christ the Son of God, is Rock the Universal Church is built upon. Or is Peter the Apostle of Jesus Christ, the person we are to build the Universal Church upon?

This is one basic division between the Roman Catholic Church, and those who protested against this teaching. For me the most logical rendering is that Jesus Christ and His Followers represent the Universal Church. Jesus is the one we trust in for our Salvation, not Peter. Peter was given the task to continue preaching the Good news. Peter, like the other Disciples were chosen by Jesus Christ to grow the Universal Church. Some would say Peter became the leader of the Disciples and thus like the rest he was the larger of the smaller stones. Ths is my opinion only.

There is no place in Scripture that instructs, or even hints of praying to Peter or Mary. The only mediator between us and the Father is Jesus Christ Hebrews 8:6 The place of Tradition being of Higher authority than the Scripture is a division that can't be over come between the Roman Catholic Church and those who are Protesting. I believe it might be more beneficial to dialogue on what we have in common that attacking one another on what we don't agree.

 

[patricius79]

Jesus is the "Petros" and Peter is the "Petra". :many scholars doubt the authenticity of these verses because they are missing in Mark and Luke.

So what? "You are Rock and upon this rock I will build my Church" is the Word of God.

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

It's simple: the unity of the Church, in Christ, must be reflected in a single, authoritative teaching office.

I agree completely!

Unfortunately, that teaching office job was already taken by the Holy Spirit...

1 Cor 2:12,13
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.