Free will, heaven, and probability

[Nihilist Virus]

As I already answered: Thisworld is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God after death or not.

I asked why and you said the same thing again. Not a valid response to repeat yourself when asked why.

 

[Alla27]

And either you will do exactly that in heaven, or else you will not do so because you won't have free will. Which is it and why?

I will explain one more time. Only IMPERFECT beings choose to do evil. Once you become PERFECT being(God) you do NOT want to chose evil.
Lucifer is not perfect being. He is not God.

 

[elopez]

I asked why and you said the same thing again. Not a valid response to repeat yourself when asked why.

You asked the same question that I had already answered...Not a valid response to repeat a question that has already been answered...

 

[Chris B]

The point is this: eternal life is something we have to choose by ourselves. It can not be forced on us.

Really? I would take from the bible more than one instance where "forcing" most definitely appeared to hold true, both ways.
(Just like a magician's "forcing" a card choice on someone which they think they have chosen freely)

If there is no such thing as luck, change or randomness, (which I have repeatedly been told is the position of Christianity, lest divine authority be constrained) then I am constantly surrounded by a sea of events which, despite my inclination to see them as random, or chance, are nothing of the kind but each is *arranged* to particular outcomes, happenings or non-happenings.
Every die roll, every decision changed by a scrap of weather, or a train running early or late...
This is shepherding. Gates and walls being moved **to purpose**

If you'd like a biblical account, Paul being struck down with visions, and blindness, would come a pretty long way up the scale of "being forced" even if he technically had a free(?) decision still to make.
Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, rather similarly.

People, objects, timings... all mover around to produce a situation... where is the free will.
If Christianity is right, then every lottery winner is hand-picked, not chosen at random, ands every person struck by lightning... well, we're back to the Greek image or personally hurled thunderbolts. Those hit multiple times (two cases of six hits or over that I'm aware of) might have grounds for thoughts of being persecuted, rather of just being unlucky.
But it would be exactly what God wanted.
The same for every unusual instance, good or bad.
No "risk", no "chance", and therefore little to no free will

Chris.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

You asked the same question that I had already answered...Not a valid response to repeat a question that has already been answered...

I proposed this:

Refutation #1:

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

You replied with this:


As I already answered: Thisworld is a vale of decision-making during which we decide whether we want to live with God after death or not.

Once again, I am asking WHY this is the case, and your answer is "because it is."

If you do not want to contribute, just say so.

 

[Alla27]

Really? I would take from the bible more than one instance where "forcing" most definitely appeared to hold true, both ways.
................................
If you'd like a biblical account, Paul being struck down with visions, and blindness, would come a pretty long way up the scale of "being forced" even if he technically had a free(?) decision still to make.
Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, rather similarly.

Chris,
I disagree with you respectfully that Paul was forced to choose eternal life. What happened to Paul was this: God called Saul to serve Him. God called Saul in a way that Saul had to think about what he was doing lately. Saul/Paul chose to accept this call. From his writings I can see that after Paul accepted this call he was serving God with great passion.
Paul could chose what Jonah chose to do. God called Jonah to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh and what did Jonah choose to do? He chose NOT to preach to the people of Nineveh. Jonah didn't want God saved them.
If God gives us some push it doesn't rob us from our moral agency. We still have this agency: to choose good (eternal life, for example) or to choose evil.

 

[Ran77]

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Could you specify which choices you believe he made that resulted in his exile?

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

Revelation lists angels being cast out of heaven at the same time as satan. There is no mention, that I know about, of more angels being cast out because they hit this 100% of event X occurring. In other words, I don't see any evidence that your premise is accurate. Because of freewill satan and some of the angels made a choice that resulted in their being cast out. Just as on Earth we have the choice to follow God or not. I feel that your argument is like saying that if I were immortal at some point I would wake up one morning and decide I wanted to go out and kill a random stranger for no reason. It wouldn't happen. It would go against my nature - the nature I've chosen to embrace.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I will explain one more time. Only IMPERFECT beings choose to do evil. Once you become PERFECT being(God) you do NOT want to chose evil.
Lucifer is not perfect being. He is not God.

Are you saying Adam was created imperfect?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Could you specify which choices you believe he made that resulted in his exile?

No. Not here to play games.

Revelation lists angels being cast out of heaven at the same time as satan. There is no mention, that I know about, of more angels being cast out because they hit this 100% of event X occurring. In other words, I don't see any evidence that your premise is accurate.

It is mathematics and not up for debate. Re-read the OP.

Because of freewill satan and some of the angels made a choice that resulted in their being cast out.

He had the choice to do so. Every tick of the clock he decides whether or not to rebel. So he is constantly making choices. Given eternity, every being will make every choice they can make. Will think every thought they can think. Etc.

Just as on Earth we have the choice to follow God or not. I feel that your argument is like saying that if I were immortal at some point I would wake up one morning and decide I wanted to go out and kill a random stranger for no reason. It wouldn't happen. It would go against my nature - the nature I've chosen to embrace.

If it will never happen then it is purely because there is zero chance you will choose it. Do you have free will or not?

 

[Alla27]

Are you saying Adam was created imperfect?

Only Gods are perfect. Adam was not God. Adam had long way towards perfection. But Adam was not a sinner, he was spiritual man until he chose to transgress the law.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I consider it quite possible that there will be no discrete events in the World to Come, and this is actually a blissful prospect in some respects. Imagine, instead of death, blissful quiessence. However, that is one possible condition; to a very large extent faith of this sort requires us to trust in God's bountiful providence regarding such matters.



Obviously not; not trusting God is functionally integral to the kaikodaimonical nature.



Helpimg us against his will, in that God only allows the devil to tempt us in a manner that tests and purifies our faith.

So Satan is constantly helping us... despite the fact that he does not want to... and yet the Bible says he is clever. These pieces don't fit together and you have never bothered to address this despite the fact that I draw attention to it at every opportunity. I do not see the point in continuing our discussions on anything.

 

[Alla27]

God is so smart. God knows that Satan can't help himself. God knows that Satan constantly wants to make our lives miserable as his life is miserable. Even though Satan knows now that it is part of God's plan. I only imagine Satan's frustration.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

We will still have free will in heaven, but for a multitude of reasons will not sin, some of them being:

Unlike the angels/Lucifer (who also had and have free will) we will enter with full experience with sin. We will have already experienced satan’s powers, so know not to let him influence us.

Satan is not around anymore so only angels that made the free will choice to continue to humble accept God’s Love are there.

There is no tree of some extra knowledge there, since we now have all knowledge freely available.

We are no longer sexual beings (sexual beings compete for good reason), so we are prone to covet.

We will have spiritual eyes to not only feel the presence of the Holy Spirit, but literally see Him, with us always.

The big think is we have it all so there is no wanting, since our most generous Father has given us everything we truly unselfishly want.



If there is this Creator of the universe out there, His “creations” could not really “do” anything for Him, so this Creator would have to be seen as a Giver (Unselfish Lover) and not trying to “get” something from His creation.


So God would create the right universe for the sake of the individuals that will accept His gift (the most powerful force in all universes that compels even God to do all He does) and become like He is.


What keeps the all-powerful Creator from just giving whatever He wants to his creation?


There are just something even an all-powerful Creator cannot do (there are things impossible to do), the big inability for us is create humans with instinctive Godly type Love, since Godly type Love is not instinctive. Godly type love has to be the result of a free will decision by the being, to make it the person’s Love apart from God. In other words: If the Love was in a human from the human’s creation it would be a robotic type love and not a Godly type Love. Also if God “forces” this Love on a person (Kind a like a shotgun wedding) it would not be “loving” on God’s part and the love forced on the person would not be Godly type love. This Love has to be the result of a free will moral choice with real alternatives (for humans those alternatives include the perceived pleasures of sin for a season.)


This Love is way beyond anything humans could develop, obtain, learn, earn, pay back or even deserve, so it must be the result of a gift that is accepted or rejected (a free will choice).


An unselfish God would be doing all He can to help willing individuals to make that free will decision to accept His Love. Again, since God will not be forcing these individuals, they have to be willing (it is their choice) and God cannot “make” them willing since that is robotic action. God can only at best make them free will agent (like God is) and capable of make the right decision.


This “Love” is much more than just an emotional feeling; it is God Himself (God is Love). If you see this Love you see God.


Let me just give you an example of How God works to help willing individuals.


All mature adults do stuff that hurts others (this is called sin) these transgressions weigh on them burden them to the point the individual seeks relief (at least early on before they allow their hearts to be hardened. Lots of “alternatives” can be tried for relief, but the only true relief comes from God with forgiveness (this forgiveness is pure charity [grace/mercy/Love]). The correct humble acceptance of this Forgiveness (Charity) automatically will result in Love (we are taught by Jesus “…he that is forgiven much will Love much…”). Sin is thus made hugely significant, so there will be an unbelievable huge debt to be forgiven of and thus result in an unbelievable huge “Love” (Godly type Love).


You really need to read the Gospels because this “Love” is defined by all Christ did and said.


This is just an introduction on the objective of man Love.




Atonement is really a huge subject and your conclusion would need a lot of work, I can assure you God is totally fair.

It all goes back to the objective of “Love” even for the fallen angels and that “Love” needing to be the result of a free will choice.



We do have it in heaven also, without free will you cannot Love like God Loves.

This lacks a clear point and you also fail to address my argument in earnest.

 

[Chris B]

Chris,
I disagree with you respectfully that Paul was forced to choose eternal life. What happened to Paul was this: God called Saul to serve Him. God called Saul in a way that Saul had to think about what he was doing lately.

Given how unusual the intervention was, and intervention it surely was, it was a shepherding to a very high degree.
And it was particular.
Given that as an ex-theist I've been decodedly open to the existence of a deity, God(if existing) must know exactly what moment, experience, encounter.. would make me realise the truth of Christianity if true it is.
(I know what experiences insights encounters changed my mind to the opposite perspective.)
But none of these have occurred.

Paul could chose what Jonah chose to do. God called Jonah to preach repentance to the people of Nineveh and what did Jonah choose to do? He chose NOT to preach to the people of Nineveh. .

And Jonah had his free-will choice honoured, or did a bizarre concatenation of circumstances conspire to overrule it?
A timely storm, handily superstitions sailors, an amazingly timely great fish, an unprecedented submarine survival...
In terms of free will this hardly looks like a level playing field.

On smaller stuff, you have every lottery winner picked by hand. Is there any evidence that lottery winners are on the average more pious or more deserving? Or remarkable in using their money? I don't think so.

A couple I knew: he was killed by a drunken driver one month into their marriage.
In the Christian world there is no room for "accident" or "bad luck". That was, actively or passively an engineered event.
The end of the dinosaurs and other mass extinctions of life were not happenstance or accident but deliberate policy.

A baby with a random severe birth defect won't be "at random", of course. Again it is the deliberate hand of God creating or allowing the situation.

I don't see how free will survives this where each individual is surrounded by a cloud of *chosen* events, from the remarkably good to the remarkably bad.

compared to a world with genuine chance, this really does not look good.

 

[elopez]

If you do not want to contribute, just say so.

Look, you asked the same question twice, just phrased differently. You were asking why we have free will, then asked why our will's are not "cemented" to God... which warrants the same answer... not sure you how don't grasp that. If something is to be contributed here, it is a more well thought out question-answer dialog on your behalf.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Lucifer was exiled from heaven due to certain choices he made with regard to his free will.

Well...no. There is no being called "Lucifer", the Latin translation of Isaiah has lucifer (a reference to the planet Venus) as an epithet against the king of Babylon. "Lucifer" isn't the devil. Though this nit pick aside, let's continue anyway.

Once we are in heaven, we will have the free-will ability to make the same choice he once did.

Given infinite time and a nonzero probability of event X occurring, event X has a 100% chance of occurring.

Therefore, when we get to heaven, we will make the same choice that doomed Lucifer.

Refutation #1:

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

Refutation #2:

We will commit this sin and all other sins, but we are cleansed with Christ's blood whereas the angels were not.

This system is quite unfair and the other angels seem to be doomed to hell as an inescapable eventuality just the same as Lucifer. Also I am under the impression that God cannot be in the presence of sin (hence the forsaking of Christ on the cross), so this refutation makes little to no sense.

Refutation #3:

We will not sin in heaven because we will have no free will.

Then why do we have it now?



So let me know if I'm missing something.

Well, for one, "heaven" isn't what Christians hope for in the long run. That is, the historic Christian religion teaches that the hope which Christians have in Christ is to be resurrected from the dead and to share in the total renewal and restoration of the whole of creation. The idea that we will be floating around as spirits in some place called "heaven" for all eternity is a popular idea and popularly believed even by many modern Christians, but it is totally out of line with everything the Christian religion has taught over the last two thousand years.

But let's move beyond this talk of Lucifer, the devil, or heaven. Your actual question is this: What is going to stop anyone, in the great hereafter, from sinning and potentially causing a whole new fall from grace.

While we will have free will, we will have no desire to do this or commit any other sin once we're in heaven.

Then why weren't we made that way to begin with? What is the point of our existence on earth?

The theologian and church father St. Irenaeus writes of Christ as One who sanctifies the entire human condition, from infancy and even in death. The creative purpose behind man is discovered in Christ, and indeed Christ was always the point. In the garden we were like infants, in the fall like rebellious adolescents, in Christ there is a mature adulthood, and it is that full measure of humanity that we believe to be in the future age.

But why not just make everyone an adult from the beginning? I don't know, if in the age to come I get a chance to ask around I'll see what I can find out.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Wgw]

So Satan is constantly helping us... despite the fact that he does not want to... and yet the Bible says he is clever. These pieces don't fit together and you have never bothered to address this despite the fact that I draw attention to it at every opportunity. I do not see the point in continuing our discussions on anything.

The devil has no independent autonomous function; as an example of him unwittingly contributing to the refinement of someone's faith, see the Book of Job. I have brought this up before, by the way; it is not my fault if you opt voluntarily to ignore my replies.

 

[cloudyday2]

Maybe a good analogy is when a parent tells a child not to touch the fire because it will hurt. Eventually the child touches the fire and experiences the hurt. From that day forward, the child doesn't touch the fire. The free will didn't disappear, but the child learned.

 

[Alla27]

Given how unusual the intervention was, and intervention it surely was, it was a shepherding to a very high degree.
And it was particular.
Given that as an ex-theist I've been decodedly open to the existence of a deity, God(if existing) must know exactly what moment, experience, encounter.. would make me realise the truth of Christianity if true it is.
(I know what experiences insights encounters changed my mind to the opposite perspective.)
But none of these have occurred.




And Jonah had his free-will choice honoured, or did a bizarre concatenation of circumstances conspire to overrule it?
A timely storm, handily superstitions sailors, an amazingly timely great fish, an unprecedented submarine survival...
In terms of free will this hardly looks like a level playing field.

On smaller stuff, you have every lottery winner picked by hand. Is there any evidence that lottery winners are on the average more pious or more deserving? Or remarkable in using their money? I don't think so.

A couple I knew: he was killed by a drunken driver one month into their marriage.
In the Christian world there is no room for "accident" or "bad luck". That was, actively or passively an engineered event.
The end of the dinosaurs and other mass extinctions of life were not happenstance or accident but deliberate policy.

A baby with a random severe birth defect won't be "at random", of course. Again it is the deliberate hand of God creating or allowing the situation.

I don't see how free will survives this where each individual is surrounded by a cloud of *chosen* events, from the remarkably good to the remarkably bad.

compared to a world with genuine chance, this really does not look good.

Chris, I would love to respond to your arguments but I want to ask Nihilist Virus first if he doesn't mind. I hope not. We will talk only about free will.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Chris, I would love to respond to your arguments but I want to ask Nihilist Virus first if he doesn't mind. I hope not. We will talk only about free will.

It's a forum go ahead.