Logical Problems with Calvinism

[Bible Highlighter]

Hello Jason.

Thanks for your reply.

Free will is a philosophical term.

You may have a choice to make at times, but you are never, purely free to
ever choose the Christ. The Holy Spirit must intervene at every stage of
your conversion and throughout your life. Lest you proceed, other than by
the Grace of our Lord.

Please take a look the list of verses I posted to you a little more closely. You will notice the words "free" and "will" and "choose" in there. These things cannot be if we did not have any ability to choose freely, etc.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Are we not talking though about those who will inherit the promises of God as saved persons who believe in Christ?
Regeneration is part of the process in a person's life that sets them on the road to justification by faith. the true beginning from God's pov, is that those He foreknew in love , he predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. To be conformed in that way means to be glorified.
All those whom He foreknew, He predestined. Before they existed, God knew them intimately.
Truth is all of their days and all of their ways are designed by the Creator beforehand.
To the saved this should be of a great comfort, it takes out the lie of someone losing their salvation.

Psalm 139
13 For You formed my inward parts;
You covered me in my mother’s womb.
14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;
Marvelous are Your works,
And that my soul knows very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You,
When I was made in secret,
And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
And in Your book they all were written,
The days fashioned for me,
When as yet there were none of them.

17 How precious also are Your thoughts to me, O God!
How great is the sum of them!
18 If I should count them, they would be more in number than the sand;
When I awake, I am still with You.

No. People were born again spiritually even in the Old Testament. There are many verses on this particular topic. Please do a search on the words "circumicison" and "heart" or "circmicise" and "heart" at blue letter bible.


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[Hammster]

That is just ridiculous. I am saying the HEARING is where they actually HEAR with their ears, SEE with their eyes, and UNDERSTAND with their heart whereby the receive the seed of the Word into their heart. In other words, the hearing here is synomous with BELIEF in God's Word. Many times those who came to the faith had it preached to them. So they heard the message of God's Word and then believed (Thereby their faith came by hearing the Word of God). The context here is talking about faith in God's Word by hearing it and it is not talking about unbelief in hearing God's Word.

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Ah. So one must understand in order to have faith.

 

[Marvin Knox]

I do not see God revealing a truth to someone as regeneration. God revealed truth to a pagan Pharoah about Sarai. It did not take a regeneration. God can reveal the truth to a person by His Spirit and it is up to the person to decide on whether or not they want to submit to God.

There is a big difference between simply revealing truth and showing someone the thoughts of God.

All I know is what it says.


"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Corinthians 2:14

If you choose to call it something other than the hotly debated word "regeneration" I have no problem with that.

So long as we understand that God is the one who reveals truth and that He does not reveal all truth to all men - So long as we agree that there is no one who seeks God and understands among natural men - and So long as we understand and agree that God is the author of our faith I have no problem with you not calling it regeneration.

If a person is totally depraved and unable to come to God, then that means man has no free will to come to God and God

The doctrine of total depravity simply means that every part of ones being has been corrupted by sin.

Being able to come to God for salvation has nothing to do with whether the man stands guilty before God and is subject to His wrath. There are plenty of other sins that will get him to Hell other than just disbelief in the gospel.

God is the One who must regenerate a person so as to believe.

That is the doctrine of monergistic regeneration as believed by Calvinists.

Which would mean man is off the hook in his decision in accepting or rejecting Christ in this life.

"Off the hook" is hardly the case. God is not responsible for the fact that natural men cannot understand. Their condition is a result of the ongoing wrath of God against sinners that is going on even now in this age according to the early part of the book of Romans.

A regeneration is simply a change of one's spirit by the Holy Spirit. They receive a new nature by God. Regeneration is not God drawing a person to believe and regeneration is not awakening of some truth to a person.

God's drawing can certainly include the giving of a new nature to a person. Why not?

A person can reject God's drawing and a person can reject God's truth. ...

I believe that the scriptures do teach that men can resist the drawing of God for quite some time. Paul seems to have kicked against the goads for a while before God drug him into the Kingdom of God in spite of himself. The same can be said for me for what it's worth.

But Jesus was quite clear that all that the Father gives to Him will eventually come to Him. This is the doctrine of irresistible grace not that men (even elect men) cannot resist God in any way either before conversion or after conversion.

P.S.

I've got to go away for a bit. Hold off with any more conversation or it may well get lost in the shuffle.

P.P. S.

We're getting a lot of mileage out of this thread considering the flawed nature of the premise in the O.P.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Ah. So one must understand in order to have faith.

Yes, a person can hear, see, and understand a book on mechanics. That does not mean God has given them any special ability to do so. But can a person refuse to hear, see, and understand a book on mechanics? Yes, most definitely. It is no different with God's Word.

Granted, I do believe God draws a person and makes for repentance a possiblity. But this is not God making some to believe and others to not believe, though.


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[Bible Highlighter]

There is a big difference between simply revealing truth and showing someone the thoughts of God.

All I know is what it says.


"But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised." 1 Corinthians 2:14

If you choose to call it something other than the hotly debated word "regeneration" I have no problem with that.

So long as we understand that God is the one who reveals truth and that He does not reveal all truth to all men - So long as we agree that there is no one who seeks God and understands among natural men - and So long as we understand and agree that God is the author of our faith I have no problem with you not calling it regeneration.

The doctrine of total depravity simply means that every part of ones being has been corrupted by sin.

Being able to come to God for salvation has nothing to do with whether the man stands guilty before God and is subject to His wrath. There are plenty of other sins that will get him to Hell other than just disbelief in the gospel.

That is the doctrine of monergistic regeneration as believed by Calvinists.


"Off the hook" is hardly the case. God is not responsible for the fact that natural men cannot understand. Their condition is a result of the ongoing wrath of God against sinners that is going on even now in this age according to the early part of the book of Romans.

God's drawing can certainly include the giving of a new nature to a person. Why not?

I believe that the scriptures do teach that men can resist the drawing of God for quite some time. Paul seems to have kicked against the goads for a while before God drug him into the Kingdom of God in spite of himself. The same can be said for me for what it's worth.

But Jesus was quite clear that all that the Father gives to Him will eventually come to Him. This is the doctrine of irresistible grace not that men (even elect men) cannot resist God in any way either before conversion or after conversion.

P.S.

I've got to go away for a bit. Hold off with any more conversation or it may well get lost in the shuffle.

Many are called but few are chosen. You think that man has free will when God chooses them but yet you also say that God does not bother with those who do not desire to come to Him. I disagree. There are many who hear God's message and do not repent and believe. This is not because God does not want them to repent or because God did not choose to awaken them to see. This is because man has decided to harden his own heart against God. Because the moment you shift the blame to God in the fact that He does not give some men the opportunity for salvation is the moment you make God the One to blame for a person's wrongful actions. For in this type of belief: God judging them would be no different than judging an animal then. It would be like getting mad a scorpion because of it's nature to sting. It would also mean there would have to be a judgment for animals, too. But there is no such thing. Men are not animals.

This is why God wants all people to be saved and He desires that all men fairly and openly come to the faith. If not, then God is a respecter of persons.


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[Hammster]

Yes, a person can hear, see, and understand a book on mechanics. That does not mean God has given them any special ability to do so. But can a person refuse to hear, see, and understand a book on mechanics? Yes, most definitely. It is no different with God's Word.


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If one understands, then why is faith required?

 

[Hammster]

If folks would actually look up the verses that God is no respecter, they would probably stop misusing them.

Probably.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If one understands, then why is faith required?

Faith is belief in God's Word. Hearing, seeing, and understanding is a part of a person's choice of faith or belief in God's Word. A person can choose to be open or close minded to God's Word. That is what Matthew 13:15 is saying. Understanding with the heart is realizing God is good and we have sinned against Him and we need His salvation.


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[Albion]

Many are called but few are chosen.

I've always thought it's significant that this verse doesn't read "Everyone is called, but few are chosen."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If folks would actually look up the verses that God is no respecter, they would probably stop misusing them.

Probably.

But your statement here does not in any way SHOW us that you are actually right about such a verse, though.


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[Hammster]

Faith is belief in God's Word. Hearing, seeing, and understanding is a part of a person's choice of faith or belief in God's Word. A person can choose to be open or close minded to God's Word. That is what Matthew 13:15 is saying. Understanding with the heart is realizing God is good and we have sinned against Him and we need His salvation.


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So faith comes by believing what God says?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I've always thought it's significant that this verse doesn't read "Everyone is called, but few are chosen."

Doesn't matter. The rest of Scriptures is clear is that salvation is for all mankind freely and openly. For God so loved the WORLD. Not some of the world, etc. God is the propitation not only for our sins (believers), but for the sins of the WHOLE world.


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[Hammster]

But your statement here does not in any way SHOW us that you are actually right about such a verse, though.


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You're right. But I would hope that it would encourage people to look them up so they can see for themselves that they are abusing the text.

 

[Albion]

Doesn't matter. The rest of Scriptures is clear is that salvation is for all mankind freely and openly. ...

LOL. Sure, I've heard that one before--choose the verses that seem appealing and discard the ones that don't "fit."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Also, a Calvinist cannot preach salvation in Jesus Christ to a crowd of people openly. Why? Because in certain cases, some in those crowd cannot be regenerated and saved according to God. Salvation is not for some of them. So a Calvnist has to add a clause of exception if they are regenerated by God outside their own ability if they are going to be saved or not. In other words, he would be lying to some that they could have salvation unless he is clear that some in the crowd cannot be saved. But how would the Calvnist know that? Maybe the whole crowd will repent and be saved. Yet, he still needs to communicate to folks that he is not talking to some individuals, though. He needs to make clear that salvation is not available for some people.

In other words, one of the biggest problems I have with Calvinism is that it limits salvation to a special group only. Yes, I believe the "Elect" exist. I believe these are the people of whom God has foreknown since the beginning of time. But they were not forced or made to be into the Kingdom of God (While others were left out). God is equal and fair with all people. Even the "Elect" had chosen God of their own free will.


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[Hammster]

Also, a Calvinist cannot preach salvation in Jesus Christ to a crowd of people openly. Why? Because some in those crowd cannot be regenerated and saved according to God. Salvation is not for some of them. So a Calvnist has to add a clause of exception if they are regenerated by God outside their own ability if they are going to be saved or not. In other words, he would be lying to some that they could have salvation unless he is clear that some in the crowd cannot be saved.


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If I say that Christ died for those who will believe, am I lying?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

LOL. Sure, I've heard that one before--choose the verses that seem appealing and discard the ones that don't "fit."

And you don't do the same? What about the verses I brought up?
No doubt you believe John was talking to both Jew and Gentile as in reference to the WHOLE world. But I get no indication in the text about that. John did not seem concerned with Jewish believers versus Gentile believes. John meant what he said. He was comparing believers with the actual entire world in 1 John 2:2.


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[Bible Highlighter]

If I say that Christ died for those who will believe, am I lying?

According to God's Word, if you believe in Calvinism in the fact that you think man cannot come to God, then it would not be a true statement and would be techincally a lie, ... yes.

For you define belief as something that is the result of something God must do and not man.
Man cannot come to God without a regeneration.
Man cannot technically believe without this regeneration.

Your definiton on the word "believe" is not true.
It is not a natural belief on the part of man to simply choose God of their own free will.
Their belief is not really a belief but it is some kind of automatic response that was done in them by God.

But God wants salvation for all people.
When you preach that people can be saved, you do not pick some people out of the crowd.
Salvation is for all.
God is not a respecter of persons.
Now, will everyone repent? No, of course not.
God knows who are His and who are not His.
But that does not mean the free gift was not available to all.
Salvation is not for some special elite club.


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[sdowney717]

I've always thought it's significant that this verse doesn't read "Everyone is called, but few are chosen."

About our Christ is written In Isaiah 53
He bore the sin of many. It does not say 'all'

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise Him;
He has put Him to grief.
When You make His soul an offering for sin,
He shall see His seed, He shall prolong His days,
And the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in His hand.
11 He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied.
By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many,
For He shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will divide Him a portion with the great,
And He shall divide the spoil with the strong,
Because He poured out His soul unto death,
And He was numbered with the transgressors,
And He bore the sin of many,
And made intercession for the transgressors.

And in Hebrews 9
He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.