Who is Jesus? The Identity of Jesus Father (Marduk / Yahweh)

[Der Alte]

the jews who were questioning him what was their intention of questioning him ? what was their attitude toward Jesus were their intentions good or were they scrutinizing his words for anything that could be taken for blasphemy ? they were questioning Jesus for a reason (and if jews were expecting a God - Messiah why would they see that as blasphemy anyways?)

A lot of assumption and speculation here.

 

[jenny1972]

A lot of assumption and speculation here.

well why were they questioning Jesus ? what were their intentions did they believe He was the Messiah were they interrogating Him or wnting to learn from Him what was their attitude?

 

[Der Alte]

well why were they questioning Jesus ? what were their intentions did they believe He was the Messiah were they interrogating Him or wnting to learn from Him what was their attitude?

I have not yet mastered the ability to read minds 2000 years after the events.

 

[jenny1972]

well do you think its possible they couldve been on the lookout for anything that could be interpreted as blasphemy from Jesus?
just having Jesus say " before abraham existed God " ( rocks begin to be thrown ) seems like they were quick and eager to judge him . He was not calling Himself God and He did not say that He existed before abraham . Jesus said 4 words and those words dont say i am God

 

[Der Alte]

well do you think its possible they couldve been on the lookout for anything that could be interpreted as blasphemy from Jesus?
just having Jesus say " before abraham existed God " ( rocks begin to be thrown ) seems like they were quick and eager to judge him . He was not calling Himself God and He did not say that He existed before abraham . Jesus said 4 words and those words dont say i am God

Novatian [A.D. 210-280.] A Treatise Concerning the Trinity Chapter V

Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” (Mat_22:42 et seq.) so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” (Gal_4:4) so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.” (Luk_6:5) And in the same manner as He suffers, as man, the condemnation, so as God He is found to have all judgment of the quick and dead. And in the same manner as He is born as man subsequent to the world, so as God He is manifested to have been before the world. And in the same way as He was begotten as man of the seed of David, so also the world is said to have been ordained by Him as God. And in the same way as He was as man after many, so as God He was before all.

He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, “Before Abraham was, I Am?” (Joh_8:58) For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Fragments from the Lost Writings. LII.

The59 sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the “Rock was Christ” (1Co_10:4) Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. (Joh_4:14) And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. (Joh_8:58) And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.​

 

[Job8]

Jesus never said that before Abraham existed He existed and that He was " I AM " . Jesus said that " before Abraham was , I AM " aka before Abraham existed God existed.

Precisely. And in saying this, He was referring to Himself. That is the only way that this statement can be understood, without turning Scripture on its head. But this is not the only Scripture, so when one brings all of the passages pertaining to the Deity of Christ together, there is an overwhelming truth in the Bible -- that JESUS IS GOD. Let's take another passage to illustrate (Isaiah 9:6,7):

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

So who was this child who was born but who was also "the mighty God"? The Gospels will reveal that He was Jesus of Nazareth.

 

[Wgw]

That Jude quoted from Enoch does not canonize it. We have no way of knowing if any writing purporting to be Enoch, today, is the same writing that Jude quoted from. Paul quoted from Greek poets and philosophers 5 times. That certainly did not canonize all the writings of those poets and philosophers. There can be a grain of truth in many nonscriptural writings.

On this point it is of course a matter for individual Orthodox churches to determine their canon and lectionary systems. The Ethiopian Church, which rejects as heretical the views expressed in the OP, regards 1 Enoch as canonical, and the other Oriental Orthodox do not object to this.

 

[Wgw]

On my way to discovering that the one we call Lucifer is actually a female, I also learned that she is Tiamat from the Enuma Elish and I THEORIZE that Apsu is Jesus Christ (the Word). As for Marduk, he is without a doubt Ba'al, Bel, Zeus, Appolyon, and so on. This is what all christians who read the Enuma Elish need to understand, in my opinion; it is the creation story as told by the fallen angels who lost the war in heaven. There are TWO main angels behind all of those stories and those angels are the same as Ba'al and Ashtoreth. Go down the list, from Ea to Nergal, and they are ALL just different personas of BA'AL. The same applies on the female side. Every female "goddess" is actually ASHTORETH, aka Lucifer.

They tell the stories of creation and the flood from their perspective, which is the losing side. It's claimed that Marduk defeated Tiamat (the Dragon Queen) but the book of Revelation tells us that it was Michael the archangel. So if you believe the bible that means, the Enuma Elish is a lie told by the losing side. The truth is that both Marduk and Tiamat were defeated by Michael the archangel and they were cast down to the earth, and the first thing they did was concoct a different version of how the war went.

Another thing is, I'm not convinced that "Yahweh" is actually God's name. Asherah, who is also Ashtoreth, is called "the wife of Yahweh" and "she who treads on the sea." Ashtoreth is known to be the consort of Ba'al, so if Asherah is the consort of "Yahweh," what does that hint at? That hints at that name "Yahweh" belonging to Marduk. BUT that does not mean that it wasn't really the God of Abraham who is actually at work. His real name was probably just switched out by worshipers of Ba'al. I can only think of one place in the bible where God told us his name and he said it is "I AM," or "Ahayah" in Hebrew. That's the name I prefer to use. I don't get the love of the tetragramaton (YHWH), when God clearly gave us his name in Exodus 3:14-15.

"And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations."

Here's a video I did if you don't mind taking a look. It's kinda old so some of my current understanding has advanced beyond what you'll see in it.

This is simply entirely inaccurate; Asherah was the consort of Baal (or Bel), the West Semitic analogue of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar.

 

[jenny1972]

before Abraham was, I AM.” ( Gods name not his )

has there ever been any other time when Jesus referred to Himself as " I AM " ? Jesus never said that He was God only that He was Gods son , which in the Old Testament there are several . Jesus studied the OT and knew what the term " son " meant it meant servant to someone who studied and understood the Old Testament . that is what son of God meant and that is logically what He meant by it how the jews understood it . Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi so son of God meant nothing other than that not to HIM anyways .....

a ' son of God ' refers to the righteous who become conscious of God's fatherhood to his creation. a servant who has a close relationship with God.

All four Gospels record Jesus as saying,“Blessed are the peace-makers; they will be called sons of God.”

 

[Wgw]

well noone knows Jesus better than Jesus Himself fortunately Jesus Himself answered this question and explained many times what and who he was and was not and never deviated from it ..........

Matthew chapter 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, "Whom do men say that I the son of man am?" 14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets

Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me

Jhn 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

Jhn 8:26 I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which I have heard of him.

Jhn 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

John 20:16-18 : 16 Jesus saith unto her,Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. 18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things unto her.

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

Paul is the one who inserted the idea that Jesus was God incarnate it did not come from Jesus who always made a clear distinction between Himself and God and regularly prayed to God. Both 'the son of God' and the term 'Christ' do NOT mean God. They never have, and never will. The term Christ means Messiah, the definition of Messiah is not God, and the Jews who were awaiting their Messiah did not believe the Messiah would be God and in fact is why they were so angry with Pauls rumor that Jesus was God and what caused Jesus to eventually be killed . The Hebrews believed God is One, and had neither wife nor children in any literal sense. Therefore, it is obvious the expression ‘son of God’ merely meant ‘Servant of God’; one who, because of faithful service, was close and dear to God as a son is to his father. Paul + Christians who came from a Greek or Roman background, later misused this term. In their heritage, ‘son of God’ signified an incarnation of a god or someone born of a physical union between male and female gods. This can be seen in Acts 14: 11-13, where we read that when Paul and Barnabas preached in a city of Turkey, pagans claimed they were gods incarnate. They called Barnabas the Roman god Zeus, and Paul the Roman god Hermes.

Whereas the OP is essentially Marcionite-Gnostic, this post on the other hand takes us into the disagreeable territory of Arianism.

For a refutation of this error I would refer the author to the Panarion of St. Epiphanius of Salamis, or the freely available Acts of the Council of Nicea, which a quick Google will bring up.

 

[Wgw]

before Abraham was, I AM.” ( Gods name not his )

has there ever been any other time when Jesus referred to Himself as " I AM " ? Jesus never said that He was God only that He was Gods son , which in the Old Testament there are several . Jesus studied the OT and knew what the term " son " meant it meant servant to someone who studied and understood the Old Testament . that is what son of God meant and that is logically what He meant by it how the jews understood it . Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi so son of God meant nothing other than that not to HIM .....

This is a gross distortion of the plain meaning of our Lord. If He is not God incarnate, he would have not spoken in such a confusing manner about it, or the authors of the canonical Gospels would have taken pains to correct it.

Yet herein lies another problem with your approach: you take the characteristic approach of blaming Paul for the notion of Christ as God, yet you fail to take into account that all four of the canonical Gospels are held by most scholars to postdate the Pauline epistles. It is entirely impossible to have a Pauline-free Christianity, since the Pauline epistles represent the oldest extant part of the NT, predating even the Gospel of Mark, and in content they are substantially concurred with by the other NT apostles and evangelists.

 

[Wgw]

Novatian [A.D. 210-280.] A Treatise Concerning the Trinity Chapter V

Let them, therefore, who read that Jesus Christ the Son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God. For in the manner that as man He is of Abraham, so also as God He is before Abraham himself. And in the same manner as He is as man the “Son of David,” (Mat_22:42 et seq.) so as God He is proclaimed David’s Lord. And in the same manner as He was made as man “under the law,” (Gal_4:4) so as God He is declared to be “Lord of the Sabbath.” (Luk_6:5) And in the same manner as He suffers, as man, the condemnation, so as God He is found to have all judgment of the quick and dead. And in the same manner as He is born as man subsequent to the world, so as God He is manifested to have been before the world. And in the same way as He was begotten as man of the seed of David, so also the world is said to have been ordained by Him as God. And in the same way as He was as man after many, so as God He was before all.

He proves Himself to be God by offering divinity, which if He were not God He could not give. If Christ was only man, how did He say, “Before Abraham was, I Am?” (Joh_8:58) For no man can be before Him from whom he himself is; nor can it be that any one should have been prior to him of whom he himself has taken his origin. And yet Christ, although He is born of Abraham, says that He is before Abraham. Either, therefore, He says what is not true, and deceives, if He was not before Abraham, seeing that He was of Abraham; or He does not deceive, if He is also God, and was before Abraham. And if this were not so, it follows that, being of Abraham, He could not be before Abraham.

Irenaeus [A.D. 120-202.] Fragments from the Lost Writings. LII.

The59 sacred books acknowledge with regard to Christ, that as He is the Son of man, so is the same Being not a [mere] man; and as He is flesh, so is He also spirit, and the Word of God, and God. And as He was born of Mary in the last times, so did He also proceed from God as the First-begotten of every creature; and as He hungered, so did He satisfy [others]; and as He thirsted, so did He of old cause the Jews to drink, for the “Rock was Christ” (1Co_10:4) Himself: thus does Jesus now give to His believing people power to drink spiritual waters, which spring up to life eternal. (Joh_4:14) And as He was the son of David, so was He also the Lord of David. And as He was from Abraham, so did He also exist before Abraham. (Joh_8:58) And as He was the servant of God, so is He the Son of God, and Lord of the universe.​

Note that it is probably desirable to avoid quoting Novatian, who was the schismatic heresiarch of a proto-Pelagian set of rigorists. A much more compelling Patristic defense of Trinitarian theology and Christology can be found in the classic of St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation.

 

[Der Alte]

Note that it is probably desirable to avoid quoting Novatian, who was the schismatic heresiarch of a proto-Pelagian set of rigorists. A much more compelling Patristic defense of Trinitarian theology and Christology can be found in the classic of St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation.

Even a heretic can be right sometimes. And Novatian is supported by Irenaeus, a student of Polycarp who was a student of John. As I said in a previous post Paul quoted from Greek poets and philosophers 5 times. Their works had some truth although they were pagans..

 

[Winken]

If only we had the original Aramaic text for eashoa msheekha.

 

[Wgw]

Even a heretic can be right sometimes. And Novatian is supported by Irenaeus, a student of Polycarp who was a student of John. As I said in a previous post Paul quoted from Greek poets and philosophers 5 times. Their works had some truth although they were pagans..

There is no need to quote Novatian however, since St. Irenaeus and St. Athanasius, who are not heretics, say the same thing, and do a better job of it. For that matter one would do well just to wuote the Niceno-Constantinopolitan creed of 381, sans the filioque.

 

[jenny1972]

This is a gross distortion of the plain meaning of our Lord. If He is not God incarnate, he would have not spoken in such a confusing manner about it, or the authors of the canonical Gospels would have taken pains to correct it.

Yet herein lies another problem with your approach: you take the characteristic approach of blaming Paul for the notion of Christ as God, yet you fail to take into account that all four of the canonical Gospels are held by most scholars to postdate the Pauline epistles. It is entirely impossible to have a Pauline-free Christianity, since the Pauline epistles represent the oldest extant part of the NT, predating even the Gospel of Mark, and in content they are substantially concurred with by the other NT apostles and evangelists.

Paul and Mark and Matthew and John and Luke are all separate people who did separate things . one can be in error without the others also being in error . modern Christianity is a result of all of them together but each of them were separate men who had separate jobs . any that contradicted Jesus or contradicted the Old Testament ( Jesus didnt ) saying God was not ONE but instead 3 and other wrong teachings is responsible for his own actions.

 

[jenny1972]

Note that it is probably desirable to avoid quoting Novatian, who was the schismatic heresiarch of a proto-Pelagian set of rigorists. A much more compelling Patristic defense of Trinitarian theology and Christology can be found in the classic of St. Athanasius, On the Incarnation.

when did the Trinity take shape 300 years or so after Christs death? that makes sense ... well that explains why Jesus didnt speak on it or know about it then wasnt invented yet

 

[Der Alte]

well do you think its possible they couldve been on the lookout for anything that could be interpreted as blasphemy from Jesus?

Requires supposition and assumption. Jesus had just said "Abraham rejoiced to see my day, he saw it and he was glad." The Jews said you are not yet 50 years old and have you seen Abraham? Jesus said "Before Abraham was, I am." that was in response to the Jews' question and Jesus used the first person personal pronoun, "I am."

just having Jesus say " before abraham existed God " ( rocks begin to be thrown ) seems like they were quick and eager to judge him . He was not calling Himself God and He did not say that He existed before abraham . Jesus said 4 words and those words dont say i am God

"I am" does not mean "God!" "I am" is the personal identification God used when Moses asked Him who should he tell the Israelites sent him. The Jews understood "I am" to be God's personal identification. Read Exodus 3:14.

Jewish Encyclopedia- Names of God
With this explanation agrees the meaning of the name given in Ex. iii. 14, where God is represented as speaking, and hence as using the first person—"I am" (אהיה, from ( היה, the later equivalent of the archaic stem ( הוה).

Jewish Encyclopedia online​

 

[jenny1972]

that was in response to the Jews' question and Jesus used the first person personal pronoun, "I am."

" I AM " was not a first personal pronoun ..... I AM is the name of God when Moses asked God His name God replied to Moses " I AM that I AM "

so all that Jesus said was before abraham was God - before abraham existed God existed . he said this after telling the Jews that they did not know God but He did know God ( didnt say He was God then ,or ever )

 

[Der Alte]

when did the Trinity take shape 300 years or so after Christs death? that makes sense ... well that explains why Jesus didnt know about it then wasnt invented yet

Wrong as usual. The word Trinity was first used in 180 AD by Theophilus and was used by other early church fathers long before the 300 year mark. While he did not use the word trinity, Justin Martyr in the latter part of the first century spoke of the person of God, the person of the Son and the person of the Holy Spirit.

Justin according to Justin
Click link, to Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho; (ca. 150 a.d.) [110-165 AD]

1. 
   
   • XI "There will be no other God, He alone is God who led your fathers out from Egypt, the God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob.
   • CXVOur Priest, who is God, and Christ the Son of God.
   • CXXV Christ is called God, He is God and Appeared to the Patriarchs.
   • He became man was foretold by the mystery of Jacob's wrestling with Him who appeared to him, in that He ministered to the will of the Father, yet nevertheless is God, in that He is the first-begotten of all creatures.
   • Chapter CXXVI.-The Various Names of Christ According to Both Natures. It is Shown that He is God, and Appeared to the Patriarchs.
   • CXXVIII The Word is Sent Not as an Inanimate Power, But as a Person Begotten of the Father's Substance.
   • CXXVI He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God indivisible and inseparable from the Father.
   • CXXVIII Begotten from the Father but not by abscission (cutting off).
   • LXII When God said, “Let Us make”, God conversed with some one who was numerically distinct from Himself, and also a rational Being.
   • LXII (In Gen 1), there are persons associated with one another, and that they are at least two.
   • LXII This Offspring, which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with Him.
   • LXIII (God speaking of the Son,) “Your holiness have I begotten Thee from the womb, before the morning star.”
   • LXIII (God calls the Son, God,) “Thy throne, O God is forever,”
   • LXIII (God calls the Son, God,) “Therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed Thee with the oil of gladness.”
   • LXIII (Jesus), Deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ
   • Chapter LXXV.-It is Proved that Jesus Was the Name of God in the Book of Exodus.
   • Chapter LXXXV.-He Proves that Christ is the Lord of Hosts from Ps. XXIV., and from His Authority Over Demons.
   • LV The true God, God who made all things, is Lord alone.
   • Chapter LXVI.-He Proves from Isaiah that God Was Born from a Virgin.
   • XXXII The Lord is called the Christ by the Holy Spirit, Our Lord Jesus Christ.
   • XXXVI Who is this King of glory? 'And the Holy Spirit, either from the person of His Father, or from His own person, answers them, `The Lord of hosts, He is this King of glory.'